Spies like us: The MvC3 C.Viper Team/Matchup Discussion Thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
1781

Yeah Zero is another Ammy type character where he’s designed to be mostly self sufficient outside of needing an assist to make some of his mix ups more ambiguous and dealing with some aerial situations or really hard lame out from characters like Dorm or Hawkeye (which a lot of other characters have trouble with also). Of course you can sacrifice that to some degree since his mix ups without assists are still solid especially with sogenmu backing.

I’d rather just have the reassurance of a strong lockdown type assist backing the point character. Plus having room for a second strong assist or a character that is strong as anchor.

I guess it just comes down to overall I don’t like the idea of having a low health character being put out in the open as your only neutral assist.

That’s one that doesn’t really lock the opponent down for very long on block or hit either like Akuma does. It stops people from jumping but people seem to be coming up with reaction punishes to it that could make you lose Strider pretty fast. Plus if they hit you he’s just a huge bait to get snapped in since your team basically becomes two point characters with no assists if he gets snapped and killed.

It’s a team that I feel if you play perfectly is strong but I just see eventual holes with relying on Strider as the only neutral assist if you play anything but perfect.

1782

My original team when I decided to main Viper was Zero/Viper/Dante. But I wanted Viper on point for assists, and didn’t think Zero’s worked to well with her so I dropped him for Doom and picked up Strider to XF3 oiyourrowboats derp.

As for MarlinPie, I got all excited when I read that Viper/Zero was good, now he’s going to come make me give up on it again? Sorry MP won’t happen my brotha.

Gonna take Ve’s idea and run Dante anchor instead of Strider lol :]

1783

i agree with zero being an ammy type character, mostly self sufficient. i’d say the biggest difference comes from zero’s set of assists.

ryuenjin: good for alpha counter but generally not combo or hit confirm friendly
hadangeki: fairly good, slow moving proj (even better in sougenmu) but still difficult to combo with, or hit confirm a grounded hit
shippuga: very little range and too fast for most characters to continue combos with

most ammy players default to cold star. although that is the only real offensive assist she has, it is one of the best assists in the game. having one amazing assist to choose from is still better than 3 that is iffy altogether. this is main reason why zero is almost always the point character even when he can optimize his combos without assists and seems just as deserving of an anchor position as ammy is.

now, then, viper can work with just one assist backing her up (although two is preferred). if you were to choose vajra as that one assist, i don’t see it working out in the long run. having zero on point in such a team leaves zero with one fragile neutral assist (vajra = mixup / anti-air) and one assist mostly reserved for combo / mixup (i’d prefer having viper on seismo or bk). on top of these tight requirements to make the team work, you now have to save as much meter as possible for strider to come in and possibly having two ouroboros activations, and preferably x-factor.

even if we eliminate the issue of using strider anchor, there are many problems with viper/zero/xxx.

  • zero does not have a safe tag going back to viper (although this applies all characters)
  • zero DHC back to viper is difficult (rekkoha, early DHC to emergency combination), or does not do the damage of 2 supers (knockdown, sougenmu, DHC to burst time)
  • zero does not offer a good assist that unlocks viper’s potentials, leaving the anchor character to be an all-around assist for viper (hint: impossible, you’re gonna lose out on options)
  • viper’s limited to providing zero with OTG/combo potential (seismo; which he is fully capable of on his own) or a quick high/low mixup (bk; often difficult to hit confirm). tk assist is pretty much ryuenjin.

i can agree with marlinpie ultimately not going with zero in his team. as a character, zero’s umvc3 buffs made it possible for him to do everything on his own, but the assists he offers are garbage compared to other characters. guess he’s gotta have some signs of weakness.

i dont know if it’s just me, but i feel like playing a viper team made me believe in some kind of team composition perfectionism, where everything has to work in every aspect.

1784

I agree with most of what you said above.

Although when it comes to specific problems regarding viper+zero…I don’t think zero not having a safe tag back to Viper having difficulty DHCing back to Viper is that much of an issue. With Zero second I don’t really see the issue. If you need to get Zero in the fight just do some super with Viper and DHC into Sogenmu. If for some crazy reason Zero needs to DHC back into Viper (honestly I feel he should be dead before this would ever happen) then fine. Zero back into Viper is the easy part since you don’t even need to spend 2 meters. Just turn on Sogenmu, flood the screen with Zero’s crap and then raw tag Viper in. There’s more creative, less meter spending ways to get people safely brought into a match than just relying on meter killing DHC’s all the time.

Rekkouha is an irrelevant super for Zero outside of bdays now that he can self lightning loop.

The other 2 issues you mentioned and the risk and lack of multi hitting lockdown associated with vajra I feel makes the team kinda overly ideal.

1785

I feel its hard to find the perfect Viper team. Ive been trying Viper/Trish but cant find a good third and I feel the same with Viper/x/Strider. I kind of wish Magneto disruptor was the same or you could relaunch with the disruptor. its hard to use it in combos now.

Ive settle on running Viper/Trish/Ammy but I dont think Trish/Ammy is very strong by itself

1786

Hmmm…I don’t think it’s that hard to find a great team for Viper. I guess if you want something that’s just great all down the line it’s hard because only certain characters are just nearly as good on point in the 2nd spot while providing strong DHC, TAC and/or assist synergies for Viper. Then still have a 3rd anchor that provides a strong neutral assist that can extend combos if needed etc.

That’s why I’ve decided to just go the Masta CJ team structure (Ridiculous point character / Ridiculous point/assist character / Ridiculous anchor with so so assist) because it’s easiest way to make a strong team around characters you like instead of hurp durping nasty characters I don’t like, like Zero. It allows you to always have that comeback if things go bad and keeps your team pretty complete from the front since your goal in Marvel I feel is generally to draw first blood and kill off that blood draw. Then create the domino effect with welcome mix ups and hopefully you got them down to just anchor. If not at least you have the momentum to get towards that point. You can always just DHC or safe tag into the ridiculous anchor and provide him with ridiculous assist if you want. If that character can be pretty ridiculous as anchor that helps too.

I just have the team set up so eventually Viper will just be really hard to land a clean hit on and just have Viper be this character that kills you everytime she touches you via standard combo or TAC into Doom. Missiles basically gives her a 3rd reversal/option to escape taking hits outside of focus attack and EX seismo which most of the other cast has nothing similar to deal with offense. If that fails still got Doom who’s not bad by himself even without an assist and still wrecks people damage wise when he hits them. Then can just DHC into sword dance super. If that fails just try to land meterless TOD XF3 combos with Dark Vergil so I get my meters to do whatever the hell I want.

I feel Marlin Pie’s team however is about as ideal as you can get without having any assist to cover characters that can just sit up at the top of the screen all day. Though C.Viper is so powerful if they get anywhere near the ground against her that I guess it hasn’t seemed to matter that much for him. Doom coming in 2nd with Ammy assist is great for his pressure and neutral game. Just gotta remember not to call a bad Ammy because she can set up bdays for the opponent really easily due to how exposed she is.

If that fails I feel Ammy is probably the most slept on anchor in the game that can just do whatever the fuck and actually has real damage in XF3. Plus now can slow people down while being able to move 40 percent faster than she could in Vanilla. Literally shutting down any chance of the opponent hitting her cleanly for a few seconds.

For now I would just prefer to have an option to deal with that area of the screen and have an assist that can really lock people down for mix ups as she moves forward with it also.

1787

I’m still in the, “ammy really isn’t that great” camp.

She’s good… but that’s it. Literally nothing about her is excellent. I’d rather pick the player that hits a home run and a strike out, than the guy that hits two singles.

1788

You don’t feel the combination of her point game + assist is enough to put her into excellent? I’d be fine having her as an anchor over say Sentinel anchor easily.

I feel she perfectly fits what you want in an anchor. Something that gives you neutral plus the ability to just take control of matchups as anchor.

On point she’s decent at best IMO but I don’t really feel she’s meant to be much of a point character. She’s definitely another combination type that provides support and ability to turn things around as an anchor. You only really need to put her on point for like counter pick situations.

1789

I’d say they are about even. What Sent sacrifices in ammy-ness, he gains in damage and the ability to play a better lame game. Plus, armored normals are an issue for alot of characters.

Ammy is just pretty average in this game.

1790

Well considering Sentinel is going to be in the anchor spot I don’t see how his lame game would surpass Ammy’s. He would need to be up front with one or 2 assists to surpass her lame game.

1791

He can fly…

And anchor on Anchor, we are talking one on one, and flight is really powerful one on one.

1792

My problem with anchor Sentinel is that there’s just too much basic ass shit that can shut him down. If Dante turns on Devil Trigger he basically can’t do anything anymore. If Ammy wants to sit on anything…he can’t really do anything, if Wesker shoots on guns and runs away…can’t really do anything…etc.

None of those characters can shut down Ammy anchor just by doing there basic status quo.

He has superior normal game range to most characters and flight is good but I don’t see what the big deal about flight is when you can just not press buttons and it’s not a big deal. Ok he’s up there? Let him stay up there until he eventually has to come down. He’s good at shutting down assist calls if he has to fight 2 or 3 people but I just don’t really feel like he has anything that really controls matchups like Ammy’s slow super, reflector and cold star sepcials. He can be a dick to some characters in a 1 v 1 but only to like the lower cast at best.

1793

Eh, I don’t honestly think shutting ammy down in XF3 is that big a deal really. She’s a very linear character, and it’s not bad to run.

She does have slow-mo though. Also, consider how bad Ammy is on the snap. Half the time she’s dead before she gets to do anything. Sent will always get a chance to play.

1794

There’s a lot of characters people play as anchor that can’t really do that much on the come in. All Wesker can really do is a slow ass start up teleport that can easily be counter hit into he’s dead if they have a death combo or XF available. Yet he’s one of the most commonly played anchors on the east coast especially.

Hard drive is good to have as an auto come in but it requires him spending a meter to begin with and meter is one of the only reasons I feel he’s even close to worrisome in XF3. I mean if you account for meaty setups and overall welcome mix ups Sentinel with one meter and Morrigan with 3 meters are the only ones that really get surefire play.

That’s why I feel it’s more important to just have a team that’s as strong as possible from the front while still being solid in the 2nd and 3rd spot. Everybody except 2 characters really have huge issues with the snap especially if the other team is full stocked with assists. Just draw the first blood and have as much backing your team that keeps your blood from being drawn. UMVC3.

1795

I made a piss easy Zero corner carry BnB for all the People running Viper/Zero/Strider with no assist needed for the relaunch for when Viper gets taken out before she can DHC into Zero and no tight timing required like the jump loop and the mid-screen buster relaunch.

I wrote it in the Zero Combo section if anyone want’s to check it out or even make a video of the combo

1796

I don’t know how you guys feel but I’m thinking about making a Viper neutral game/matchup/punish type thread. The only thing I really think I can improve on with this character at this point is neutral game and match-ups/punishes. My punishes are generally on point with Viper (offline), but this is a subject that amongst others are severely under-discussed. I might just reserve a few posts within a new thread for match-ups and her neutral game.

This thread will look deep into her match-ups and neutral game options. I think this is a players biggest issue not only for Viper but in general with all characters. They don’t want to put in the time to learn a neutral game or the good and bad with a characters style. Their solution is to just go with brain-dead wesker or other just as easy options that can be abused without thought.

Let me know of your opinions on this.

1797

PLZ do. It would be so awesome. then we wont get the same questions over and over and all the stuff would be condensed in one place. let me know if you need help finding info and stuff. i can help look through this thread and find stuff people said about matchups against certain characters

1798

Chrisis over there at Fchamps stream

Runnin Sets.

1799

i’ve played ammy anchor for quite some time… here are my thoughts.

ammy’s 1v1 game is actually very threatening. there are no characters who can projectile-spam at ammy (H solar flare), so any character is made to come to ammy. she can slowly advance by dashing and turning counter on and off, and the opponent has to guess what she’s trying to counter, and generally have to back off from attacking her. if she hits the opponent at any time and she cannot kill, she can activate vale of mist and go for a mixup game where any ground tech is easily covered.

ammy does have a relatively hard time opening people up without an assist, but i feel ammy also has a tough time optimizing her combo off of an assist hit… she loses too much damage by starting with an assist hit, while she already does average damage at best. i think it really just comes down to the player’s confidence and skill with the character anchoring. she doesn’t have anything retarded that can open people up (see wesker command grab, doom footdive, etc.), thats for sure.

if you’re talking sentinel vs ammy as anchors, ammy is hands down a better anchor in terms of 1v1 anchor vs anchor situation. either character is dead on 1 mistake when put in this situation… but in the sentinel vs ammy matchup, a ton of things sentinel can do counts as a mistake in front of ammy, whereas ammy’s potential mistakes can be counted in one hand.

however, sentinel provides a better assist for teams that thrive with the “1 point, 2 assist” style. i feel that viper isn’t the best character to go with sentinel assist, though. drones are generally the best for left/right mixups whereas viper’s game is more high/low. she doesn’t have a teleport or a command dash to add to the left/right mixup factor. if anything, drones often cause the opponent to stay at superjump height, which isn’t where viper wants her opponent, really. doom missiles definitely work better in this aspect.

deviljin01’s post a few posts up is very insightful, and explains why viper/doom/ammy is one of the best combinations for viper, as well as its weakness (which can be remedied somewhat, by alternating between plasma beam and hidden missiles assist with doom). having played this team since vanilla, and especially now that it’s more difficult to deal with characters that viper fails to chase down (spiderman, trish, morrigan, etc.) i sometimes feel like i need a different team. but usually i just use missiles and see where that goes.

1800

Drones is actually really good for Viper. You can get an unblockable, a relaunch combo, you can extend your ground series combo, lockdown your opponent, and you can do a really cool Viper juggle combo. so Sentinel assist I think does a good job as an assist but I still like Ammy better so im sticking with cold star. lol. on a side note i think im gonna try

Viper(Burn Kick)/Iron Fist(Rising Fang)/Amaterasu(Cold Star) or Strider. Rising Star is really good, especially for Viper but I think I need an assist that really helps Iron Fist. Maybe Strider with Vjara