Well I’ve got good news and bad news. The good news is most wolverines (even good ones) will play more like angelic and go aggressive and nutty. So running into such a wolverine is rather uncommon and for the most part the general gameplan can suffice.
The bad news is Justin Wong is one of the most patient players playing one of the most aggressive characters (which to most marvel players is incomprehensible), and he’s damn good at it. Without more exposure you (and many, many others) will probably never beat him or players of comparable caliber and style.
Saw your name on the eventhubs update and came to say congrats, and good luck tomorrow; your buddy was cracking me up too after that Akuma super. You give me a fucking heart attack every time you go for the two L zombies in to knee drop after the team super though.
Hey long time lurker here, I was wondering if anyone has a Frank mix-up/incoming set ups video around somewhere because this is where I am weakest with him.
I currently am using team Slippaz (or team Rampage I guess) and I am amazed with my results with this team, but even though I am dominating the neutral with frank when it comes to actually mixing people up (for example, opponent blocking my Jam Session up close or in the air) I’m lost.
Also what blockstrings are you guys using often? I tend to use c.M into qcb. L (which I have no idea if its safe) or assist shenanigans with roll or feint kick.
Lastly wanted to congratulate Fuzzykips for being so sick in FR17 I was so hype when I saw your name on the stream and you played on point so good shit man.
I’d love to hear what you guys have got to say, so thanks in advance
Hey man, glad to see someone else reppin that Magnus! Do you have XBL by chance? I’d love to see your setups if so. I’m very happy with the way my switch to this team is coming along, but I’m always trying to steal stuff, especially Mags netural/setups with Jam Session and Cart haha
So it’s funny that you mention incoming setups, because I’ve been thinking about putting out a video of the one I use for a while…so I started to record it this morning and I realized that I’m not convinced I’ve really got it where it needs to be yet. I’m actually thinking about uploading what I’m using as a call for feedback to see if people have input on improvements or different approaches that might be more effective.
I always use Jam Session for incoming, so this’ll apply to anyone running some permutation of Dante/Frank.
It’ll prob be up either today or tomorrow and I’ll tag you in the post so you’re sure to notice it.
As far as block strings go, you definitely want to favor Disruptor in your Roll setups because 1) it’s tighter and 2) it gives a muchhh higher-damage conversion. If you do catch someone with Jam Session, though, the optimal follow-up as far as I’ve been able to discover (for our team) is: j.MHS (delay before both H and S), s.LMS sj.MMHS, dash, (Call EMD), j.Tools H, s.S, sj.MMHS, into j.Tools H/Zombie ender. The key there is delaying the first j.MHS enough that Frank lands in time to s.L before the ground bounce gets used. IIRC this does a little over a Million for 1 bar, which is pretty solid for a scaled confirm into an assist (EMD) which does poorly at high HSD. If you have trouble linking the s.S after EMD (it’s very tight for a Frank j.Tools H extension), you can start the combo with j.MHS s.LS, eliminate that s.M, and make your life a little easier.
Cr.M into qcb.L can be safe, but you’re only safe because you’re usually out of range of normals. Frank’s normal-into-Zombie setups have to be used really wisely because 1) Vergil’s in the game 2) they always lose to invincible grabs (I play a Thor user pretty often and he nails me with this) 3) there are a number of moves like Shield Skills/Charging Star that can cover that distance without a flash (where you could Counter-Hyper on reaction) and stuff the startup of your Zombie.
Generally, though, you want to deny space with Frank and bully your opponent into a bad situation. Jam Session’s lockdown helps a lot for keeping people in the corner, and when you mix the lockdown setup (normal + JS) with up-back Snapshot + Jam Session, you catch a lot of airdash characters thinking they finally have an opportunity to get out. Snapshot+Jam Session is gooooood.
If you have 3 bars, the Frank/Dante/Mag THC is actually quite good because Shockwave hits so high (although you don’t want to use it on flight characters before they fly because they can pushblock, fly, and escape), and you get solid lockdown for j.L instant overheads.
Walkers are fantastic and EMD gives you space to put them out if you read the stituation correctly. Jam Session does as well. I generally use the high +Frames on an L Zombie to get a Walker out and rush in for overheads with Jam Session. Use Walkers liberally because they are truly awesome screen-clutter.
F.H+EMD is also veryyyy good, but takes more presence of mind to confirm than something like f.H+Spencer Grapple. Keep in mind that the second you f.H against characters with fullscreen hypers, they’re going to nail you if they know the matchup. This, for example, is one of the very few instances in which Strange can safely SoV against Frank.
About confirming f.H+EMD…I think I posted this somewhere before, but if you didn’t see it, here are the timings that let you dash in and convert with s.MH into grounded Tools L loops:
Close (within s.L range): s.M+EMD f.H (Does not require a dash.)
cr.H Range: s.M, EMD, f.H, dash (Time EMD and f.H very close together, but be sure to call Magneto first so that you have time to dash)
s.M Max Range: s.M, f.H+EMD, dash (Let the dash rock as long as possible to ensure an optimal conversion.)
>s.M Max Range but <Full Screen: f.H, slight delay, EMD, plink dash x2 (into s.M)
Full Screen: f.H, delay, EMD, plink dash x3 (into s.M)
Tick throw setups are solid (Roundhouse L as you mentioned), though not 100% airtight. Always throw forward because it’s a better conversion. People start up-backing a lot (especially in the corner) to try to minimize Frank’s +frames, so mixing overhead strings with dash airthrow+Jam Session xx Tools L (OS’ing for whiffed throw) can be good, as can Roll xx FFC. I tend to FFC pretty liberally, but that’s a risky business, so I wouldn’t necessarily say go for it. It’s an invaluable reaction to have if someone forward/netural jumps your s.M to punish or box dashes at you during the startup of L Zombie.
Also try to use the propulsion at the end of a blocked Jam Session as much as possible because it creates very confusing scenarios. If someone blocks a roll+Jam Session left/right, try to neutral jump or jump back as they come out of blockstun (depending on where you are) and hit a delayed j.M on them as they slide under you. It can be really dirty lol. If you get someone blocking Jam Session in the air you can also roll under them while JS hits to cross up, and then have them fly over your head as they go to the ground as well for a pretty hard to read left/right/left kinda deal.
Another thing that I don’t see people use very often is j.Tools H…which is something I like to throw in when I have an opponent blocking Jam Session on the ground. That move is, IIRC, +21 and hits all crouching hitboxes (if they’re not in fuzzy guard), which is pretty sick.
Thanks! I think I could have made Top 8 if I hadn’t made this one mistake against ChrisG… tried to team super with Spencer/Dante but didn’t build the bar, should’ve just went for levels. ;_; That Magneto/Dante/Frank is a very good team though, I think it might be the best Frank team right now. Listen to Slippaz, he knows what to do with the incoming mixups. I’m actually waiting for his video to get some tips, haha.
Wow thanks for all that good info Slippaz! I’ll be sure to body some fools with all that awesome tech
Don’t have an XBL account so i won’t be able to show you my magnus but i generally like to call jam session and just stare people down to either punish push-blocks or chicken blocking you name it, his mobility allows for him to do some very reaction based mixups in my opinion. And when all else fails… trijumps are always harder for the opponent to block than they are for me to perform so… yeah
I have heard you and many other talk a lot about snapshot + assist (especially JS) so I will definitely try implementing this along with the mix ups regarding JS push-back (I do it with magnus but for some reason just autopilot that shit with frank)
Now that you mention the walker zombies, how do you use them efficiently, because I always end up getting bodied along with my zombie. Along with the fact that I am horrible with charge moves (it has haunted me since street fighter) I cannot be mobile and ready to put some chainsaws in peoples faces when im holding back or down back… this probably is something particular to me (and any others with charging problems :P) but how exactly do you put them on screen and what do you do once they’re out there? do you put another one or go crazy rushdown?
Anyways, thanks a lot for your in depth answer I love how the frank forums are one of the few that remain active now a days.
No problem at all man, and yes I do love Mags Jam Session Btw, dash back (grounded) + Cart into box dash Mag Blast is also very good vs grounded/normal jump specialist characters. Safe and gives confirmation or trijumps. Lotta great stuff for Mags with those assists!
As far as Walkers go, you want space when you throw them, or you can use Jam Session to set them up as well. If you’re close doing Snapshot + JS and then charging during Snapshot is usually legit. Personally I do f.H + EMD from a distance and charge or call EMD and use that to let me L Zombie Swing and then charge during the swing. By habit I usually do that L Swing followed by one backdash into either L or M Walker. The backdash lets you do it even when the L Swing moves you fairly close. I don’t charge partition that often because I feel a little vulnerable vs. air approaches or full screen moves. I’m more likely to do L Walker, L Swing, M Walker than I am to straight charge partition L Walker into M. The L Swing in there makes me feel a little more comfortable and still gives you two Walkers on the screen for extra hit/hurtboxes.
So…for the incoming mixups stuff…the only thing in here people may not use already is the Corpse Hop stuff. It doesn’t add a lot, but I see very little reason not to do it, and it compresses the initial left/right a little more than the plink dash back Zombie setup.
This is, unfortunately, *not * an entertaining video (lol)…this is me talking about what I use and the main problems with it more than a collection of recommendations. I’m definitely hoping we can think of a more reliable setup after the initial Jam Session left/right, so help me out!
Hmm, that’s some interesting body hop tech Slippaz. I’m gonna go play with that and see what other options we can make of it. I need some new tech before I came back to the states anyways haha
Yeah man sounds great! I do like the Roundhouse into Roll or fake dash-under because it makes reacting to pushblock significantly easier. I usually use cr.M because it’s active for long enough that you can throw it out before the opponent’s actually grounded (so in autoblock) so it hits meaty when they have to re-block (landing), but maybe trying to just time cr.L to the landing would be better so you weren’t committing to something if the opponent pushblocks.
Also, I didn’t put it in there, but there’s always the Roll/Roundhouse 50/50 into walk up throw on landing. Could probably alternate the walk up throw with a j.L instant overhead to make that more or less a 50/50 as well, although there are a few characters that wouldn’t work on if they land crouching.
Also, I gotta be honest, I kind of like the really low TK Tools L…but that seems so susceptible to pushblock and I’m not sure if it’s worth looking at. Because of the way it works you can still hit a real overhead after it, although I assume people will start blocking high even if it’s an automatic fuzzy guard. Still cool but probably worthy of a write-off.
I’m gonna play with it more too, but I’m glad you’re gonna look at it. Lotta options here, so hopefully some people will help out sifting through them
Cape also noted on the subreddit that cr.M works for the Corpse Hop. I liked the s.H because it’s so obviously in the wrong direction…kind of like a performance of the false side switch…but because the camera moves up toward the incoming opponent, cr.M’s low profile make might reading the difference between Roll and Roundhouse more difficult. Something to think about in terms of the mixup’s psychology.
Also, just making that first 50/50 as difficult as possible and cornering for pressure isn’t necessarily a bad thing…it’d be great if we could have it both ways and get 2 50/50’s into corner pressure, but playing Mags (meaning his own rushdown) has also put me on to the fact that since all of us (meaning you, me, Fizzy, Cape, and the other new Mag players) have solid second assists (so no Novas here), establishing consistent chip/corner pressure by alternating assists and dashing forward for j.L/j.M vs. pushblock creates some pretty crazy pressure. I also messed with just doing the one Roll/Roundhouse 50/50 and going into a j.MMH for pressure while holding back so I could call EMD and release a Walker while my assist keeps the opponent in blockstun. Seems legit vs. pushblock with a little testing and also seems to give you time to get back in with overheads + Jam Session for more chip nonsense…or up-back Snapshot + Jam Session if you’re playing an airdash character who thinks they can escape haha.
Anyway lotta thoughts…love to hear what people think
After the initial walker + Jam Session mixup I pretty much ALWAYS opt to put on a ton of pressure on the opponent until they crack, alternating assists and using Rolls/Roundhouses to throw in a 50/50 every few seconds or IOH. When I get push blocked out I’ll either call an assist and roll back in, or start throwing zombies/walkers.
Basically, I’m ass at mix ups so I just apply pressure. However I will lab this either today or tomorrow and see what exactly I can come up with. I’m a HUGE fan of doing high/lows once they land though, haha.
One of my favorite mixups is to call the Deadpool assist and jump. Then if they jump to try to get away or chicken block or whatever I just knee drop, roll, and FFC. Its so funny.
I pretty much do the same incoming mix ups you do Fizzy. Although some times I like to mix it up with the Jam Session FFC guard break. I wish more Frank players used that guard break, it’s so godlike lol.
I’ve been trying to perfect the timing, but if you call Jam Session and then quickly picture and FFC you can set it up in a way that if they block normally they will get FFCed, but in any other situation they will have to deal with Jam Session which will protect you.
Yeah Cape I messed with that after you mentioned it and it’s def nice because I like to alternate between the Jam Session FFC guardbreak and the meaty Snapshot guardbreak. Definitely useful.
Kind of unrelated note, but not sure whether or not I mentioned that you can cr.H+JS xx Roundhouse L and throw before Jam Session actually hits, so if they tech they’re put in blockstun immediately. Really tight timing, but it’s a great tick throw setup.
And yeah, I agree that keeping the opponent cornered for pressure is great because…ya know…chainsaws…which encourage up-back and let you FFC and give you a ton of chip while you’re bullying. This is why I was messing with j.Tools H while they’re in Jam Session. I was hoping you could jump, throw xx Tools H to OS throw against pushblock or Tools H the landing frames vs non-pushblock for the massive +frames…and it does work…but it seems really sketchy vs unusual pushblock timings.
Ahh also forgot, there’s a timing for meaty Jam Session where you can dash back, crouch, and release a Walker into Roll that seems to hit safely vs landing for another left/right. I think that’s pretty interesting, but it’s a big risk for how solid your timing has to be. On the other hand, you could do the initial mixup into a Walker and not roll, give youself a little space, and use the +Frames to bully if they land or air throw/FFC before the Walker connects vs. pushblock. Something there too.
Got a couple other ideas that may be cool, but’ll probably suffer from the same issues. Just throwin stuff out there But the normal pressure’s obviously good with the guardbreak and other throw setups mixed in. I have no complaints, but it’d be nice to have Frank a littleee more broken, ya know?
I love it in theory but my execution/timing isn’t good enough to get it consistently. ;_; More often than not when I go for the Jam Session -> Snapshot guard break, they end up being too low and I whiff entirely… then die.
I love to just do the raw snapshot -> FFC though, it’s really good because in the flow of a fight even if your opponent knows about it, it’s hard to react to. I like to use it early in a tournament set, then next time just do the meaty snapshot and call Jam Session to see if they’ll try taking the hit.
Gotta give props to you Zansam… I’ve had a TON of good players tell me this shit is so cheap. You unleashed a terrible thing upon this world. I vote all Frank players wear the BT “Cheap is such a harsh word” shirts as their uniform.
unless if you have jam of course haha