But i think your problem with her is her throw setup usually involve giving her a lot of frame advantage (st mp, st lk, cr. mk, similarly ken’s jumping jab xx tatsu block string also give him a lot of frame advantage), couple with her 2nd fastest walk speed in the game (same as feilong, mbison, only 2nd to vega), sometime it’s hard to react to her walk up throw after block strings.
I’d say it’s still much easier to react to than balrog’s whiff dash upper into grab.
HDR’s change of motion is only good for new players. A few people don’t mind and can adapt (like jason cole). But there are also a lot of people that don’t want to screw up their muscle memory learned in ST. That’s why I don’t ever play sim in HDR.
Regarding sim’s slide into throw setup. I have seen the wolfe brothers did this (I think it’s alex using ce dictor and graham threw him 5 times in a row?).
It’s only a loop for character that doesn’t have a reversal and worst throw range than sim (ST dic with no super).
The slide doesn’t give sim a lot of frame advantage (maybe 1,2 frames) and it’s not easy to slide and end up just outside of the other guy’s throw range.
I don’t think you can loop with it but it’s a valid/useful setup nonetheless to surprise your opponent once or twice.
I don’t know of any, I got access to disassemble/debug/and set breakpoints in the actual game. I own a PS3 TEST, haven’t bothered though, I don’t play it often. If Papasi wants to show me where the tables are in ROM where the throw ranges are in ST, I can find them easily, considering HDR is just a port of the Dreamcast version…
Where the heck did I say it was part of Sim’s main game? I’m glad you and your posse had a good laugh. And people wouln’t make responses about calling people internet thugs if people didnt make rude and crude comments. towards them. I dont have a problem with anyone correcting me when I say or do something wrong but no need to be an ass about it. I treat people the way I would want to be treated. I work with not so bright people but I still treat them with the utmost respect or just ignore them.
With that being said I shall refrain commenting in this thread. I obviously do not know what I am talking about and dont want to cloud the waters any more.
I think it would be a great contribution to the HDR community if you could do so.
Also, to be fair, Sweet Poison has made a concentrated effort to learn Dhalsim. I think if the two of you tone it down a notch, you might be able to have a worthwhile discussion.
I don’t take online seriously, he shouldn’t either. =P
I’d need the table data, otherwise I’d have to poke around in memory for X coordinates for things like throw distance and would be difficult because I can’t frame step on a console, I can step into with the debugger but it would take A REALLY LONG TIME and I’m not even gonna bother doing that. I can’t provide frame data unless that’s located somewhere in the game, if it is I have no idea, gonna have to ask someone who knows how to do that with video capture equipment and can step through it I guess or however they get frame data from console fighters.
I think mentioning Chun’s biggest asset as lightning legs in this matchup kinda proves my point that Chun got easier when it got a damage nerf. I also never said she needed sbk in this MU. All I said was that I wasn’t sure if it affected the MU and that I doubted it helps Chun. You mentioned Chun stored super still being bs, but the damage and juggle nerf certainly makes Chun less effective vs. Dhalsim. Can I have a link to the matchup chart you are refering to? Mine is from 2008, so I wouldn’t doubt yours being more up to date. Also the comment on Dhalsim’s super being safe was just vs. Zangief.
Anyways this is all just opinion based in the end, so I don’t see the need to take any tier list so seriously. I just looked at it from a matchup based perspective. Who beats Dhalsim? Who loses to Dhalsim? The only character I can think of who clearly beats him is Vega. Sounds top tier material to me, so that is my stance. I’m not trying to stir up controversy or anything. I was just answering Warrior’s Dreams’ question.
As a side note, I’m curious why some people think Zangief is top tier. Based on matchups, I think he has too many bad ones to be more than mid tier. For reference I think he loses to Guile, Honda, Sagat, Chun, Blanka, Dhalsim, Vega, and Cammy. Rog and Ryu are popular top characters he does well against, but I don’t think it’s enough.
Zangief is top because even though it’s hard for him to get in (shitloads easier now in HDR), once he does get in, he can end a match, his footsies are really, really good.
What makes you lose versus Zangief, is not the SPD, but the fear of the SPD. His Cr. roundhouse is his biggest asset IMO. That thing is so good and having to guess whether he will sweep or spd is tough.
Gief was never bad to begin with IMO. Look at Gunze, Pony, Jodim, CigarBoB, DJFrijoles, and even -TheBastard-. All could tear people a new one if they got in NO MATTER THE MATCHUP, even sim (which is a total nightmare). He was just hard to use, and HDR fixed that, which is in my opinion, FUCKEN RETARDED, it’s too easy now, It’s almost as if Ken or Ryu had a one button DP, but hey, watcha gonna do?.
I personally think Vega, Chun-Li, and Blanka are all bad matchups for 'Sim. Cammy I’d say is 5-5. He has a tough time dealing with some of the more agile and quick characters.
EDIT: Honda is tough for him as well.
Top 3: Balrog > Vega > Dhalsim
Next Best: Ryu > The Rest
Worst: Blanka > Cammy
EDIT 2: I think Blanka is bad for him because of his jump, it can be hard for 'Sim to AA it without trading or getting hit sometimes. Also, I think one could make an argument that Ryu is in the top 2-3, maybe even above 'Sim.
-Amazing projectile
-Fake fireball is a great move, it does more than most people think
-Super shutdowns opponents fireballs
-Overhead
-Cross-up tatsu
-Despite his bad matchups he has the potential to win any fight
Gonna disagree with Blanka being bad, if blanka can get in, it can definitely change the match, but sim has no problem keeping him cornered and keeping Blanka out. Sim’s corner pressure is really really good in this one. Drill pressure works really well in this match up also.
I don’t know about cammy. But claw is definitely hard for sim, and Chun is even IMO.
I’ll disagree with Blanka being a bad matchup as well. Yes the jump is difficult to antiair, but only if he is close to you. I think a lot of people only think about Sim’s standing antiairs and are unaware of his jumping ones. If he jumps at you from a distance that is not close to you, Sim can easily jump back and tag him with j. mk/j. fierce, or even jump straight up and fierce. Once they know they can’t jump around haphazardly, this limits their mobility, and you can harass them with standing limbs/fireballs.
Regarding Gief being top, Snake-Eyez certainly makes him appear to be, but I don’t know about him being top. He is fun to play as though.
I find this topic interesting because it is quite true that most peoples lists are in fact theory based off what they “know well” (ST) applied to the “we think we know but we actually don’t” (HDR).
I one hundred percent believe that the tiers are in fact compressed in this game.
With that said it would be my humble opinion that as of now we don’t have a ‘big three’ (or four depending on who you ask) anymore…now we just have Boxer and Claw at the top, everyone else scaling down from the top of the mid tier (i’ll let you guys do all the arguing over that section but i believe it starts with Dhalsim and goes down from there)…and Cammy and T.Hawk at the bottom.
Interestingly enough that Cammy at the bottom still does pretty damn well against the one character everybody seems to whine about, Zangief, who i dont feel is as overpowered as he is underestimated by his opponents. Same for Fei Long. Like i said…changes were made, tiers were compressed, and you have to have respect for those changes in battle if you want to win.
Also, playing Devil’s Advocate, if Cammy is that bad in HDR then why has Mongolorobokop done so well with multiple top 8 finishes at West Coast majors and/or Ranbats throughout the last year using Cammy? See…we think we know but we do not.
While I can see what you are coming from, I just don’t think that means as much as you think it does. New Hawk wins vs anyone once he gets in and starts his gg loop. Zangief wins in a similar (although not as guaranteed) way if he can keep applying pressure up close. Both were still low tier in ST though at the end of the day. Getting in is a big if. The thing about low tier in ST was that they were still solid characters. I’m sure we have all seen Kuni plow through Alex Valle’s O. Sagat. In the next video you see him getting double perfected by Daigo’s O. Sagat. That happens way more often. Has a Zangief ever won a major tourney in ST before SnakeEyez won in HDR? How many were in the top 4? I think that speaks for itself.
What makes Zangief difficult to use in ST in your opinion? Doing his SPD’s (technical skill) or him just being so weak vs. half the cast (the challenge of getting in)? If Zangief having easier SPD’s makes him easy to play now, how is that a bad thing? If the challenge of getting in was why he was hard to use, then it was only because of him being a weaker character in comparison to others. Why is being easy to play such a bad thing for you (with it being retarded and all)?
I would argue that SPD’s being easier doesn’t affect top level Zangief play and is the most overrated “buff” Zangief got in high level play. If you are Pony, DJFrijoles, or one of those master T Hawk players you SPD stupidly quick all the time, but I doubt they SPD noticeably faster in HDR. You can SPD with only 2 frames in between walking and throwing in ST (walking :f:,:d:,,:u:+punch). I wouldn’t doubt them being pretty close to that. You still can’t SPD faster than that in HDR with the new motion or with the (not as strict as it used to be) old motion, so the change doesn’t really affect top level play at all. One quirk of the SPD motion in ST is how missing any one of those directions in ST messes the whole thing up. Doing :f::df::db::ub::u::uf::f:+punch doesn’t work just because you didn’t input :d: by itself (diagonals don’t count at all and the last forward is unnecessary). On regular dpads, that quirk makes pulling off quick SPD’s reliably stupidly hard. The new less strict SPD motions only lowers the execution barrier so pad noobs like me can do SPD’s more reliably. Noobs won’t be SPDing as quick or efficiently as the the list of top Hawk/Gief players you mentioned anytime soon, but for now they can at least do SPD’s. My SPD’s are still slower than SnakeEyez’s and doing it as fast as him will still take a lot of practice. It doesn’t make SPD scarier except when Zangief is holding :db: and while he is doing that he isn’t very scary anyway. [media=youtube]z7KVcbXaJyA&feature=related[/media] SPD’s being that easy on a pad is a good thing imo, but I’m sure some will disagree.
Anyways on an unrelated note gg’s Pasky. I think I only ever played you like once before today. Nice perfect last round lol. Sorry if this comes off as a rant. I don’t mean it to be one. I’m just curious and in the mood for debating this kind of stuff.
Sim’s throw range being nerfed hurts his fight against chun and claw especially because the mixups after the noogie were huge in these matchups (for example, you could counter walk up throws from chun with a noogie, follow up with a crossup slide under into headbutt for dizzy and then super… this won so many matches for me against chun its ridiculous, and if you watch top tier play you will especially see a lot of noogies from sim vs. dictator, claw, and chun). These were tough matches in ST for him and his noogie was a main asset (and by “tough” i don’t mean that it was even a losing match for him, just that they were hard compared to some of the braindead matches he has. The claw fight was like 5.5-4.5 for claw maybe and now i think its 6.5-3.5). Having said that, sim is definitely still solidly top tier, its just his matchups have changed slightly and some of his already tough matches just got a little worse. Honda is about the same between games, it really helps that he lost his ochio loop.
Pasky is clearly not listening to sweet poison because he thinks he’s a scrub which obviously is a retarded reason to skip over someones logic. Its not like the guy is saying the noogie helped it every matchup, but it clearly did help in a few that were already pretty even to make the matches slightly worse for sim. If you can’t see this you are just blindly biased.
I don’t use the word scrub, it’s stupid. Also, as someone previously mentioned, his fierce throw range wasn’t nerfed…so once again, how does noogie range nerf affect chun and claw if he can’t noogie them but can still fling them across the screen to zone them? Although zoning claw is all but impossible, but sim certainly doesn’t want him in his face either.
It’s true that his fierce range wasn’t nerfed, but given the option, I’d take noogie over fierce throw any day of the week. I have some options in zoning Chun and Claw, but it’s not nearly as good as Sim’s other matchups. If I have the option to get them in a noogie loop where I’m at a distance where I can noogie then but they can’t throw me, then that’s what I’m going to do. These matchups are difficult enough as it is. With the fierce throw, given the right distance, I have a good chance of getting a throw off after a slide, but unless I’m in a corner, I’m creating distance that in this case I do not want. It resets the situation instead of letting me keep pressure on them with guessing games. At best I can get them to land on a fireball or do limbs to push them back, except now I have to worry about when and where Chun is going to jump, or if she’s going to poke me, instead of me just guessing if she’s going to block low or high.
What’s worse is that they can soften the throw, minimizing the damage that they receive. You’re right in that I don’t want them in my face, but when I finally get them in a position to where I’m in their face, I just lost an option that would have made it much easier to win the matchup vs Claw and Chun. I suppose I could tick then fierce throw, but another thing about the noogie is that it did a lot of damage. Also, the opponent doesn’t have time to think about what to do next as they’re trying to mash their way out of it. It’s just subtle things like that that make the nerf on the noogie range in those particular matchups a significant loss. And yes, they can both anti-air the throw attempt, but the threat of the noogie puts extra pressure on them as opposed to the fierce throw which they can soften and thus minimize any damage received.
USA does not have a tradition of Zangief players. Or most non top tier characters, for that matter: they even sort of dropped Guile in ST, and we had to wait until Mars raised the bar again, recently. Before damdai decided to learn Hawk, there were no real Hawk players, no-one who could do what’s supposed to be done in high level play.
I do not mean USA players are bad or anything, they just don’t generally play certain characters, you can not make the point you are trying to, it is a clear fallacy.
As for the Japanese, their best players are Chun Li players, so that alone makes it quite hard for Gief. Would you drop them anywhere else, they would be a huge threat.
I can’t comment on the claw and vega matchup because I’ve never used Sim against them. What I do know is going for noogie over a fierce throw for actual damage reasons is not smart at all. I can break out of a throw in one hit consistently, even when it catches me by surprise, ask anyone on GGPO and PSN, 2 hits maximum, it’s not hard to do and at high level, everyone can do this.
I’ve actually won matches because an opponent made a stupid mistake of going for a multi hit throw, rather than one that can be teched and have it not kill me only to come back and win a match. Going for damage on a throw by using a multi-hit is not a smart idea and shouldn’t be considered a reason why.
But that's cool if that's one of the things you do yourself, but anyone worth playing in SF2 will break a throw real quick.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but if you fierce throw someone in a corner, can’t you immediately follow up with yoga flame and be safe? This can also lead to sim’s yoga flame traps. I think it works on chun, not sure on claw since he has the flip kick and backflip.
Totally gonna agree here. Gief was never weak, it’s just no one took the time to explore him except a handful of people in the US and people like Damdai using old hawk are fucken monsters, if you’ve ever seen DJ Frijoles play vs Honda, he makes that match LOOK like it’s in gief’s favor. The character was never bad, no one put the time in. It’s like Muteki, there is no doubt and argument that ST guile is the worst iteration of guile in the SF2 world, he sucks compared to HF guile and CE guile.
I’d only argue that he may be even or slightly better than WW guile, but even WW guile has a lot going for him, but Muteki makes it look like he is playing a totally different version of guile from everyone else. That applies to Gief.
I can’t express how much I hate Sirlin’s mentality of lowering the execution barrier, I feel the execution barrier is there so you can’t always dp whenever you want because it’s easy, it’s more like, "Shit, I gotta risk going for a [DP/CHICKEN WING/SPD/ETC…] here. If you could whip out an SPD anytime you want because you put the time and effort into practicing your game, you damn well deserve that SPD. I mean, what’s the point of having special moves if all you want to focus on is the meta game, might as well have 1 button specials across the board.
I think there was a reason the inputs were so weird or hard to do, because those moves had great priority (8 frame srk input window got you a completely invincible move (depending on who and what punch you hit), spd does a ton of damage and leaves you with the ability to tick again. Chicken wing let you get a lot of mixup options after you’ve gotten them with it. I can’t comment on tiger knee, I don’t use Sagat.
Basically…the execution barrier was there for a reason and removing it and focusing on mind games makes the game a bit more stale IMO. Sirlins mentality seems to be “Just spam the same move over and over” with changes like T hawk’s dive and cammy’s drill. If you ever watch him, that’s how he plays also, it’s just boring as hell. But I’m not gonna get in further, just answering a question to whoever said something about gief and the execution barrier, I think it was Big O.
As far as gief’s biggest buff aside from the easy spd, is the green hand. It’s very fast and misleading, gief looks like he’ll be farther from you when he’s done but he’s in spd range, and after an spd he can get closer to you faster using it. It’s a hard move to deal with. It means even if he gets a SPD mid screen, he can get in range to start his tick game, something he couldn’t do except in certain situations in ST.
The faster running bear grab is also good, it’s hard to react to (at least online, don’t face giefs offline) and takes getting used to, I’m still not used to it. Gief is very good now with more than enough tools to get in much much easier.
,:u:+punch). I wouldn’t doubt them being pretty close to that. You still can’t SPD faster than that in HDR with the new motion or with the (not as strict as it used to be) old motion, so the change doesn’t really affect top level play at all. One quirk of the SPD motion in ST is how missing any one of those directions in ST messes the whole thing up. Doing :f::df::db: