What up Snake Eyez, congrats man. You still got internet love from me don’t mind anyone trying to take away from your win.
I said to myself let me check this forum one more time for the aftermath of Evo and this is what I find.
The old the new game is worse than the old one so let’s discredit any accomplishment. This happened from Halo to Halo 2 to Halo 3. This happened from Gears of War 1 to 2. This happened from HF to ST. I got tired of how on GGPO there were so many people that got salty because I beat them in “dumbed down ST” and not their main game HF. “You can beat my Ryu with your broken ST Balrog in ST but try that in hyper fighting.”
You cannot look good arguing that the changes are so severe that your skill should be drastically hurt in HDR. You can’t rely as much on some loops and people can do command grabs easier. So what? If your skill relies on loops and your opponents not being able to do an SPD then what does that say of your skill?
There is new memorization involved. People think street fighter is just about mind games. It is not. There is actually a very large amount of memorization involved. Most of the old players are relying on simply ST to get them by. There is new memorization to learn now and watching some of the old players play, they haven’t taken the time to memorize some of the changes. They may think they can just download the other player but you can’t download Snake Eyez skill set in a few matches and react to it all. He has a few Zangief styles that he can change mid match to really throw you off.
Why should Snake Eyez be forced to play the inferior ST? Why is execution being harder held in such high regard here? Playing HDR really got me good at ST. When I transitioned back to ST I found with a few days of practice I could not only do everything that I did in HDR, I did everything even tighter in ST. The exception is with Zangief. I could do almost everything that I could do in HDR except Zangief’s command grab. Three weeks later I got the command grab down well and did not notice a big difference in my play. If you want good execution in a game I can show you some things with Akira and some other characters in Virtua Fighter that will make ST’s execution look laughable.
It is pointless getting Snake Eyez to do this because there is too much interference between versions. Balrog is similar between ST and HDR so it is not that bad. Ryu is also similar. Zangief’s moves are mostly different and there is too much interference. I talked to Jodim (who can write and understand English) and he told me he will not use HDR Zangief due to the interference for one. The commands are too different and learning both messes up both of his games. He told me in HDR he likes to use Guile and experiment with Akuma and plays Zangief in ST. He also believes that HDR Zangief is not much better than ST Zangief. Believe me he knows every intricacy of both versions better than anyone on SRK. He is like a Zangief encyclopedia if you ask him about things. He says the main thing to be fearful when facing Zangief in HDR is your own characters new weaknesses.
I think Sirlin did his job quite well based on that. All he mainly did for Zangief was give Zangief a chance to compete in some of his bad match ups. The shotos have no problem winning against Zangief and shoto vs Zangief is in no way broken. The same arguments can be made if Ken won HDR. Ken got so many improvements and that’s why he won could be said.
As for Kuni I have played him too and while he is good, he is no where near Snake Eyez or Jodim.
Zangief has always been a character like this. When he is looked at in a good perspective like the ST Pony owning video he seems unstoppable and broken. Yet when you get an amazing shut down Chun-Li like Otochun and he perfects Pony it looks like Zangief has no chance. This is just Zangief for you. He is all or nothing except Snake Eyez spent the time also learning all of the hits that trade in Zangiefs favor so if he can’t get in then he can out trade his way to a win which could be done in ST since the priorities are pretty similar.
The new hop is being exaggerated and is not as good as most are saying. The new green hand barely helps. The new motions have no effect on play at Snake Eyez level. Jodim can walk up SPD in ST the same way as Snake Eyez. The fierce SPD and it’s range helps but is not going to win Evo. The new lariat is probably his biggest new benefit and that really hurts the Boxer match. This just makes him easier to get in which he needed. It does not make it super easy to get in though.
The bottom line now is Snake Eyez is playing the game all the time memorizing, getting everything tight, and much more. I was playing HDR for well over a year and rarely saw an OG get on. When they were on I saw they were mostly playing SFIV. The people that got on the most in this order are Snake Eyez, DGV, and then afro legends. Who was in the top 3 at Evo again?
There has been a changing of the guard. The hungriest want it now (Snake Eyez, DGV, afro legends). The people that are no longer hungry can talk about the dinner they had in 1999.
Agreed, he played so very well that night. (Actually, he plays well all the time). He earned that EVO win fair and square. It was a lot of fun to watch!
Agreed, people make choices to do what they want. If more people are playing HDR right now, it is because more people want to play HDR right now. If they more people want to play ST, the community would be playing ST (Oh… that would be my DREAM! :razz:) . It’s just that simple.
This is an unfair statement.
I don’t know whether you’ve played Kuni on ST or HDR but:
-
He does not play HDR, so if it was HDR, you’re judging him on a game he’s not familiar with)
-
It sounds like you’re comparing his ST Gief to SE’s HDR Gief, which is comparing apples to oranges.
-
I’m pretty sure you’ve never played Kuni in his prime.
-
Kuni is familiar with HDR. He did the whole other country account thing to get HDR. He used to play it quite often from 6 AM - 7 AM on Xbox Live under kuni27da. I hate this whole Japanese are not familiar with HDR talk when many have played it.
-
Apples to oranges? Not according to Jodim or myself. They seem to be more like different brands of apples.
-
I played him in 2009 and he was not completely out of practice. He again was very good, just no where near Snake Eyez or Jodim. Many of you guys are stuck in the 90s and it is laughable.
I think this thread should be sponsored by Haterade. It’s obvious that HDR has more compressed tiers and is more user-friendly while still requiring quite a bit of skill from the player to play properly. Sure, you could gripe about a few changes that were questionable and suggest some more changes that would balance HDR out even more (and we already did all of that in the HD Remix Reximed thread), but the bottom line is that David Sirlin accomplished the goal for this game and his hard work should be celebrated, not hated on. Same for Snake Eyez. A pad player now has the same access to high-level play that a stick player does. If you don’t like it, do like the NBA will have to do against the Miami Heat…either step up your game or quit. Whining is a waste of energy.
That’s because many ST players are willing to also play HDR due to the similarities. If every tourney forced one game or the other by vote, it’d be interesting to see where the support went. If that happened, I’m not sure you’d see much HDR anymore in regional tourneys, at least not on the east coast. Even the majority of offline SF2 players in Las Vegas (the few that are still there) prefer ST if you ask around. It’s only online and some of the new players in CA that remain HDR strongholds in the US.
And I still haven’t seen anything but acceptance that Snake Eyez is the best HDR player right now. But it’s up to him if he wants to prove that he can be equally successful at ST. Some have been implying that beating OG players on HDR (which is still a great accomplishment, don’t misunderstand) is equivalent to any SF2 but it’s only playing them on the version they actually played that would be indicative of that. If he wants to stick to HDR, no problem, he’s still the HDR champ.
People need to stop trying to discredit Snake Eyez, it only makes the community as a whole look pathetic.
Especially all the comments about ST.
Or about x person in x game in x prime in x fabricated reality.
Here’s a new plan:
Congratulate Snake Eyez on winning.
If you can’t do that i suggest you try the XBL or Gamefaqs forums instead i am sure you would enjoy that community more.
And you would without a doubt fit better there.
If you would rather argue about how ST is a far superior game there is a whole other section dedicated to that game.
Go there instead i doubt anyone here is interested in how you think ST Claw brings a lot of depth to the game.
If you would rather dick ride a player that couldn’t beat Snake Eyez because they didn’t practice enough to do so go ahead.
Just know that all you are doing is making them look bad by making excuses for their loss.
Here are the facts.
Snake Eyez won.
People that lost to him should have practiced more.
That is all.
Seriously this is pathetic to read especially from a lot of you whom should know better.
Flawed argument.
OG players should by the same reasoning prove they can be as successful in HDR.
Stop trying to discredit him.
This just reflects badly on all of us.
Uh, what are you talking about? I see a lot of straw men being set up when nobody is criticizing Snake Eyez. I met him, congratulated him, and think it’s great he won to hopefully show anybody can take anybody on in this new version of the game with enough practice. There’s nothing better than to motivate more players but somehow, my gut feeling is that new players still won’t be motivated to enter. If turnout does double or something after watching Snake Eyez’s rise to the top, then great, crisis averted and HDR is locked in.
I’m pretty sure damdai made his point as a reaction to the people who were treating the win as if it was equivalent to any SF2; just read some of the early posts for that sentiment.I agree that if OG players want to prove they can be successful in HDR, then they should definitely practice up; they don’t get credit just by being OG. Where’s the argument here? Honestly, it sounds like you’re missing some part of the logic here.
Shari, people are still entitled their opinion. While I could argue (read “provide reasonable arguments”) that implying his victory was not merit-able does not help the community, only a few have done it. Trying to imply that this is the vision of the ST community as a whole is creating a fact. Fatboy’s response to damdai seems much more likely to represent what many players feel.
Well, I could be guilty of that, while I am not saying that was your intention. Anyway, I would like to emphasize that in no account was I comparing Snake Eyes HDR play to Kuni’ HF, nor DGV’s HDR one to Ohira’s one. Those are quite different games, even tough not as different as any SF franchise crap game that has been released over the years. I was simply congratulating the winner and I had no intention to state that American ST players lacked the dedication or skill and that was why they lost. While I would like EVO to have some version of SF2 in every edition, I do not mean or think SF2 games are necessarily similar and I agree that even having many similarities, the differences in speed, hitboxes, frame data, characters and attacks all make each of them unique.
There have been a number of flawed (i.e., fallacious) arguments in the whole thread. Some of them being “if HDR Zangief was too strong, many players would have chosen him,” “the players who really like ST have good execution” or “WW thought they were more skilled than CE players.” This thread is really approaching (or is already in) flame bait/troll territory.
looking back on that i think i could have worded that better, but with the whole statement i made, i was hoping people would understand what i was getting at. i should have just stressed -as an example- more of the hyper crowd vs their opinion of the st crowd of players back then, instead of going all the way back to ww (although i do know people who quit after ww, becuase of changes etc that they didn’t like in ce). basically, in any game (let’s keep it with sf2 here), the best players of an older version (especially those who fail to adapt/maintain/dominate in the newer version of that game), for whatever reason, will -usually/sometimes- find something to criticize in the newer version, and try to make points that, because of those new changes or difference, they are enough to cuase the newer version to be inferior in some way to the older version
Can anyone see why I left the SFII community now? Even if you win the hardest to win tournament you get a bunch of salty people whining and making excuses or say you won HDR but that’s not ST. This just makes me get angry and want to be salty right back and make myself look bad.
Snake Eyez has some of the best execution around and I am going to say it right here, he could destroy you all complaining in ST if he trained for it. He does not need to though because it is 2010 and it is an outdated game.
Go on Xbox Live and challenge him, DGV, or afro legends and realize you are inferior and the slight changes of speed or hit boxes do not matter. Go play DGV again on GGPO and he will pound you again in ST without that even being his main game. This is not directed to you Ganelon because I know you are a monster in both versions and can hold your own.
What is left to argue? The two games are mostly the same when you break it down in the end except it seems like HDR remixed mode edges it out. Can you all ST lovers start a thread in the ST land subsection. You can all break off completely from HDR and restart your community there. Hold your ST tournaments, make a ST version of the WWL on GGPO, and more. The fun factor isn’t the same with ST for the most part as it is with HDR so I doubt this will happen.
I highly doubt Evo will ever go back to ST with the outdated look to it. Classic mode is not as fun (Vega wall dives, O Sagat, and super punch out boxer boss) as remixed mode so there will most likely be far less entrants. All debatable but will most likely be proven if this ever happened.
yeah…no one said any of that. btw salty is a super creative term and should be used more often.
I am good friends with Kuni. I was unable to go to EVO this year but he stopped by to visit me before returning back to Japan after EVO. And I specifically asked him about Tokido and Daigo and he said that they do not play HDR. Kuni said he played a little but not nearly enough practice for a tournament. He played some before EVO 2009 and maybe off and on since then so he has some familiarity with it but not as a hardcore player.
I agree with Damdai in that there is this perception now that Zangief is finally validated as a tournament-worthy character (which is true) but they’re mistakenly lumping in ST Zangief in there. You cannot compare the two.
I don’t know you’re referring to as being stuck in the '90s. Again, the majority of the veteran players either do not like HDR, only play in big tournaments such as EVO or have moved on to SFIV. I’m not an HDR hater. I think it is a fun game and it did what it intended to do: Give SF2 a facelift, bring in new/casual players and compress the tiers.
Welcome to life. There will always be someone to drag someone else down, especially in an online community where many players are arrogant, assholes, and quitters. You ignore the nonsense and persevere. A few notes of interest:
- Michael Jordan was never projected to be a starter or a star, he was even cut from his high-school team.
- Dustin Pedroia (Red Sox MVP) was told he was too short to ever be a pro baseball player.
I don’t think they gave a shit. Neither should you. Congrats to Snake Eyes, has to be one of the best 'Giefs around.
Norieaga that has got to be the best avatar I have ever seen. I learned a lot from you this year and thank you for it and hope someday we can bury the hatchet.
i was curious, can you be more specific and define “played a little” and “off and on” as far as what kuni means? for example, i think it was mentioned on the commentary -regarding daigo- how there was a mistranslation in a past interview, where he supposedly stated or it was said that he “retired” from competitive sf games for a bit, until sf4 came out and it re-ignited his passion. but during that “retirement period” of his, instead of playing 5-10 hrs a day for example, he was still playing like 2 - 3 hrs of capcom games often (it’s on the evo commentary, discussed between seth and whoever was there, i’m not sure exactly at what specific time tho - i believe during the 2nd day of evo). what i’m getting at is that for some foreign players, what we consider hardcore - maybe 2-3hrs of practice a day, is considered just “casual” and not at all serious to them (where 5+ hrs daily would be what they considered “hardcore” and serious).
also, this is for the gief experts, but what handicap would a gief st player have when moving to hdr gief? what exactly is harder for him to do, or how has he become weaker? from what little i can gather, he only gained advantages. so the old st gief players should be doing much better in this game right, than they did in st? or am i wrong - and if i’m wrong give me an example? i would think it would be like ssf4 guile players now. i’m pretty sure they are a happier bunch using him now than in sf4
I forgot to post this previously, but congratulations to Snake Eyez on winning. Ignore the haterade and appreciate the feat you accomplished - winning an EVO tournament and causing intense internet forum drama as a side effect lol
Broken dpad-friendly SPDs for all the haters