That is good you have get togethers because SFII is pretty much dead on the east coast so something is better than nothing. Every tournament I have tried to attend was cancelled due to lack of participants and then you get stuck having to play SFIV.
The respect is likewise and sorry if I came off too harsh for ST. I just try to think extremely logically and it comes out that way.
Anyway I did not even intend to come on here and post all day. I thought I would read this for about ten minutes and be done with it and that I was done here. I just felt after seeing Snake Eyez dedication which led to his win that all this needed to be said with all the detractors rampant earlier on. I will try not to post here anymore since I didn’t play SFII for a while, so people don’t entice me so well next time. Maybe I should have never even taken a peak and should apply that to the future because SFII is serious business and every sentence can turn into an argument.
First I would like to congratulate Snake Eyez for winning HDR at EVO. You definitely put in a lot of time into this game and it has shown through your results. Props.
Sadly, I missed grand finals because I had to get back home for work, I really wish I could have seen you and DGV battle it out for the title. Since I play Ryu, and personally know Ken I was hoping he would take the championship but you beat him. Clearly, Snake Eyez has developed a strong understanding for HDR.
As for the debate I have read over the last few pages, I think what is really amazing is that Snake Eyez has proven how powerful Zangief is in HDR. It has taken almost two years for someone to do this. I think this is amazing to see the game developing more since the day it was released.
If Zangief is much more powerful in this version of SFII does that really matter tho? Why cant Zangief be a mid or top tier character? The tiers are supposed to be compressed in HDR, but cant some of the characters still have an edge. Does that make HDR a crap game now?
We have all witnessed a discovery in this game if it is true. And Snake Eyez was able to do demostrate this, so in reality all credit goes to him. Some people I know play Boxer and continue to mention how powerful he is to most of the cast regardless of his HDR nerfs, so why can’t another character share the wealth.
I really hope DGV can comment on his match up against Snake Eyez.
This x 1000! Seriously, this Evo made me very happy. In a time where SF4 is getting 99% of the attention over every other fighting game combined, I was worried for the fate of ALL SF2 players. This year’s Evo showed me that SF2 can continue to survive. HDR got big numbers again(#2 most sign-up) and had really hype finals! ST got an ARCADE cab side tournament! And many of us had shit tons of fun playing casual matches in our rooms all weekend long. I thought everything seemed good. No…scratch that. I thought everything seemed great! So what gives?
I realize SBO quals are right around the corner and I know the east coast has been practicing up a lot for this. Good shit! And I wish you guys the best of luck! But please don’t let your enthusiasm for it spur another one of these dumb-ass ST vs HDR debates again. Let’s just all be friends and realize we all like ice cream. Some like vanilla and some like chocolate. Nothing wrong with that. Hell, I’ll take a scoop of both. :wgrin:
The point at issue is Sirlin’s amazement that a tourney newb walked away with first place using Zangief of all characters. This is what set Damdai off, the notion that Zangief winning an HDR tourney is a shock (which it’s not, since HDR Zangief is a beast, as Damdai correctly intimated).
What also set Damdai off is comparing SnakeEyez’s performance in HDR to the play of Kuni and other great ST Zangief players. The two are NOT comparable; here again, Damdai is correct. The fact that HDR’s tiers are compressed, that Zangief got all buffs and no nerfs (if I recall), and that the game is significantly less demanding than ST with respect to execution, completely validate his opinion.
It is perfectly civil and rational to refute Sirlin’s shock and awe and dubious comparisons. In my opinion, whatever diminishment of SnakeEyez’s performance that entails comes as a result of making more of his accomplishment than was deserved (which can happen to anyone, no matter how good he is). It is actually much more amazing that SnakeEyez beat DGV and Afrolegends at all (considering their dominant presences in competitions past) than that he did so using a character that trumps the characters that they used.
All we have here are a bunch of dorks and fanbois coming to SnakeEyez’s defense, thinking his feelings might be hurt, or his honor offended, or some such nonsense. Damdai’s post was legit; his only misstep was not couching the truth of what he said in P.C. terms that would keep overly sensitive forum regulars at bay. (That, and saying that he would rather fight ST O.Sagat and Claw, who are, I’m sorry, just stupid broken in ST. Hell, in HDR, Claw is still complete bullsh!t.)
It seems like the longer this thread continues the longer the rehashing is going to continue. I’m not sure what you mean by, it’s perfectly civil and rational to refute Sirlin’s shock and awe. For one thing, Sirlin rarely plays HDR and certainly not online, and the player skill levels has changed drastically since Sirlin has graced us with his online presence in HDR. So it shouldn’t be a surprise that he’s surprised! And who cares what Sirlin said in his article that he published in his own website, take it with a grain of salt…or better yet take it with all the salt thrown on this thread.
And um, no one here is really defending Snake Eyes, it doesn’t seem like he’s under attack. Most everyone who posted here agrees he earned his win whether you’re a HDR player or ST player or both. No the defense here is HDR’s Gief. The thought that HDR’s Gief is broken after what 2 years later is rather funny seeing how most ST players never complained or argued about that fact since they never seen him utilized in such a manner until EVO much less stuck around to play HDR much after it’s release. And before anyone brings it up, no one called Haru Tejyo HDR’s Gief baby zone when Eggo posted his YouTube casual matches back when they played HDR or anyone who had the luxury of playing against Haru back then in HDR. I mean he’s a god at Gief and who is anyone to argue with a god? The most they complained about was honda being entirely broken and how this game supports baby zone motion inputs. If you don’t believe that, just ask your friendly neighborhood ST or VFF troll in this very general strategy forum for HDR.
All the Snake Eyes dorks and fanbois as described seems to be aimed at HDR players and the dam (if u do) dai (if you don’t) defenders are ST dorks and fanbois, respectively. Most people have read Sirlin’s article and some have misconstrued the fact that overall Sirlin was saying wow, Snake Eyes is a great player. No one is saying “Oh, I bet that Snake Eyes couldn’t do that shit on ST” except for that one ST (short for salty) fellow. Don’t get me wrong, much respect to all legendary ST tourney players but I don’t recall seeing Daigo or Tokido bitching about how baby zone HDR’s Gief got it and how fucking retarded HDR Gief is and all that non sense. Since no one will say it out right, damdai, just came off with a scrub-like post and “THAT” is what is shocking to most. You can’t say it was legit, more like misguided. If he took the time out and cooled off, he could make his argument without coming off as a total jerk and posting it here, in a thread congratulating Snake Eyes on your baby zone victory…I mean that’s just fucking retarded!
And I’ve been in rooms with DGV, Afro Legends and Snake Eyes on a few occasion months ago in the past and he did extremely well against them online. He took his losses but he got his wins as well. You can ask either DGV or Afro how many times they’ve played online and they can vouch that Snake Eyes held his own. They might have thought at one point (hell, along with others) that online lag may have given him some edge but they never vocally expressed that (most great players won’t cause they are too classy) and after EVO no one is disputing the man’s skills. Well almost…lol
I leave with this, how many players that lost in EVO would love to have a chance to hand pick their opponent’s character. I mean it’s almost like getting the hand pick choice of going up against o.Sagat than HDR Gief…right? If that was to happen, I wonder what the outcome would be? Would be? Would be? <Insert Scooby Doo Flashback sound effect>
Milo, your post is silly, what “dubious comparisons” are you saying I made? I’m not aware of any. I never said a word about if he is better than Jodim (a guy who was not at the tournament so who cares) or Kuni (a guy I double eliminated at the tournament). I really don’t care about that, and I don’t know why anyone else does. He won Evolution, so the appropriate response is “good job” not “oh but are you better than Kuni in his prime?” Kuni is great, the sky is blue, and 2+2=4, and that’s neither here nor there.
What’s really dubious is anyone not surprised by Snake Eyes. It’s surprising for someone who has been to ONE other tournament ever win Evolution. I mean…this is obvious right? It’s obvious that it’s a surprising thing because it never happens, ever. Also, it’s surprising that he beat a room full of top players straight, multiple times in a row. I heard that but wasn’t there, then the next night I was and I saw it myself. This included him beating cole over and over and over in a row. That’s surprising. It’s kind of shitty to say it isn’t actually. Like “oh he beat cole, choi, afrolegends, dgv, tokido, yeah that’s normal and just what I expected from this pad zangief player who entered one tournament ever.” It’s really surprising for anyone to dominate like that no matter what character.
So I don’t get why you are complaining about what I said. What I said is totally reasonable…it’s surprising and amazing that Snake Eyes did all that. How is that even slightly controversial? It’s not. What’s surprising is you would say negative things about me congratulating the winner of Evolution. Bottom line: congratulations Snake Eyes.
@ Sirlin: I’ve read your article twice and I didn’t see how anyone could be offended by that. Like you said, the overall theme of your article was congratulating Snake Eyes! But I think this year’s EVO event in HDR has produced some sore loser(s) and what’s really sad that it was able to produce followers of the sore losers.
Maybe, though I second what SweetJohnnyV said a bit earlier. The tournament itself went really great, top 8 was good, and every night was a lot of casual play action. So it was fun and good all around. Also the people who actually play the game got the top spots. The whole thing was like a crazy alternate reality where people had fun and enjoyed things instead of posting stuff on forums to cut people down. My favorite part was when aquasnake admitted he was a hater before but not anymore and that Fei Long is ok. haha.
I’m actually not surprised he won. I’ve seen the guy beast on rooms all the time, and even if there’s some lag the fact is his skill is still there. Heck, all you need to do is check some Tejyo videos and you’ll see him beating Eggo, Frenchy in LA, 5th and Some Bud, and pretty much everyone else. This shows us that 'Gief has always had potential, whether it be through Tejyo or Snake. I am not surprised at all.
Guys you should not start an ST vs. HDR rivalry, or an “ST is better than HDR” rumor.
The ST players run the tournaments.
I don’t want to have to play ST ever again. So what if 720’s were *much *easier to pull off?
I’m a Zangief player, and I hated having so many close to unwinable matchups, that are now simply “tough” matchups in HDR.
What the FORUM needs now is love, sweet love
It’s the only thing that there’s just too little of
What this thread needs now is love, sweet love,
No, not just for some but for everyone, HDR and ST players alike…
What the FORUM needs now is love, sweet love
It’s the only thing that there’s just too little of
What this thread needs now is love, sweet love,
No, not just for some but for everyone, HDR and ST players alike…
Lord, we don’t need another mountain,
There are mountains and hillsides enough to climb
There are oceans and rivers enough to cross,
Enough to last till the end of time.
What the FORUM needs now is love, sweet love
No, not just for some but for everyone, HDR and ST players alike…
What this thread needs now is love, sweet love
It’s the only thing that there’s just too little of
What the FORUM needs now is love, sweet love,
No, not just for some, oh, but just for
Every, every, everyone. HDR and ST players alike…
Damdai’s argument is probably rational. I’d agree with that; Damdai is a smart guy, and I doubt he’d post something like this if he didn’t think he was correct.
…CIVIL, though? The entire problem here was that Damdai’s comments are not Civil:
Again, this is what has people mad. This whole debacle might have been avoided if Damdai had gone about this using Civil discourse. He didn’t.
lol i’m jk!
I’ve been missing out on this thread…
Took my time to read some of the posts… And umm…
Some of you make it sound like HDR Zangief is broken or something.
Snake eyes is very skilled (duh). And from my own experiences he is alot about prediction. He reads his opponents , and then he makes a move.
HDR Zangief did not win EVO 2010. Snake eyes did !
So, obviously, you are directly comparing SnakeEyez’s prowess to Kuni’s prowess, even though we are talking about two very different versions of the same character.
Damdai’s point is that the “somehow” is largely attributable to the fact that HDR Zangief (who SnakeEyez plays) is a force (maybe not top tier, but certainly upper mid), compared to ST Zangief (who Kuni plays) who is bottom tier, and arguably the worst character in that game. And let’s remember: Kuroppi, who is a very good friend of Kuni, has informed us that Kuni does NOT play HDR with any regularity.
It’s obvious all other things being equal.
But all other things are not equal. SnakeEyez is a gifted player who fiends on HDR, while Valle (to use an example of a great player who you said should not have been beat by SnakeEyez at WCW2) is a gifted player who rarely touches HDR. So, it comes as no shock that SnakeEyez beat Valle – especially since SnakeEyez used a character who beats the character that Valle played.
And of course, another thing that isn’t equal is that HDR Zangief is way better than ST Zangief.
Let me stress, here: None of what Damdai wrote should be taken as a slight on SnakeEyez’s performance. Damdai’s general problem was with the incredulity with which your post was laden, and all that “miracle man” hyperbole that you festooned on it. There was no “miracle”; anyone who looked objectively at what happened, and who knew just how incredibly good SnakeEyez was at HDR before the tournament started (people were telling you how awesome he is, and you were like “what??”), and how good HDR Zangief is vs. ST Zangief, and that SnakeEyez took second place at his last tournament, and that Zangief beats Ryu and Boxer, and that many of the big name players in the tourney are not regular players of the game, could not possibly be much surprised that SnakeEyez took first.
So, can I brag how I’ve had Snakes Eyez on my XBL friend’s list for over a year and how we used to play HDR a fair bit? Him and Caucajun used to run Ken for a long time, and Snake’s was marginally better. Snake also used to play Akuma a good while ago. Anyhow, I remember when he decided to switch to Gief, and he thought he could do well with him. Fast forward, and he did!
The rest of the conversation could probably go in the Gief thread or the general discussion.
ps: Damdai nailed it when he said Gief was really absurdly good in the right hands. I’m glad Snake showed us that he had the right hands!
Yeah I remember that too. The first few times I ran into Snakeyes was when he was playing Akuma (boo!) and Ken. Both were pretty good but not super. It wasn’t until a few months ago that I saw his nifty Gief with those max range walkup SPDs.