Great blanket statement. In the real world, when you say something like this, the person you are arguing with would interject with “like what?” Which you should then follow up and address the points they have made.
Complaining about me being able to use proper words to convey my argument (or as you put it, articulate), is something that you really shouldn’t be complaining about. I mean, wow, are you actually suggesting that only trolls use words above a 6th grade level?
Grow up, and try harder to dismiss my points all at once with your shit rhetoric blanket statements.
I kinda expected a last minute snipe to give the game to something. I figured it would either be Smash or LA Akira putting in a bunch of money for VF (but Sega Cup meant the VF folks passed on the this)
Your best hope is to run a side tournament- Evo can’t stop the losing game from doing that. If you really love the game, you don’t need a pot bonus to show up.
To me, the real issue with Skullgirls is that it’s great art, great engine, but took too much memorization for folks to get quickly, so many folks dropped this game fast (I did- why suffer through that when Persona and VF are out, games I enjoy which have good strategic depth). That’s not to say Skullgirls doesn’t shine when you do learn it, just that it was too difficult to learn when the lower hanging fruit this year tasted really good.
That is something I do blame Mike Z over- as I think it was his philosophy that caused Skullgirls to end up the way it did. I’m not saying he’s a crook, or that he didn’t think he was making a good game, but sometimes bad philosophical decisions can cause problems with a game.
I do hope Lab Zero licenses out the engine to over devs, and I also hope the Lab Zero artists and coders get to make another game.
This was only one example I made to counter people saying MikeZ made no profit.
While I admit it was wrong of me to say this, because he isn’t being sued, I made other points that validate my claim that he turned a profit such as being offered a sequel, as well as putting out patches that cost obscene amounts of money to host.
Stop harping on one thing I was wrong about, that was but a minor example, and start refuting other points I made that make you angry.
I comprehend what you’re saying. I have far more evidence of hypocrisy, ignorance or deliberate obtuseness from your posts than your claims of theft, lies, fraud, and even apparent obligations to charity against Mike Z or Lab Zero do. I privately gave you an example of your “factual analysis” being plainly incorrect, which you acknowledged. The fact that your posts are begging for argumentative replies
is reason enough to assume that you are trolling, but if you are so desperate for attention that you want to be systematically shown to be a twat, we can do so in private where it won’t detract from a genuine charitable community effort.[/details]
Archer: HA! no one owes us, a goddamned thing. A game was made, you bought it. That’s actually the end of the transaction. Mike and co. could have said “welp.” and called it a day.
Yes, its garbage that we(360 players) didn’t get the patch when the PS3 folk did. Surely you remember how public they were with the game before shit went south? Wanna know why I’m inclined to believe that “PR bullshit”? Cause I’m not there! Neither are you! Hell we could both be wrong as fuck and Mike Z is secretly plotting some Soviet Robot Takeover with the money, shit if we know. And honestly, shit if I care.
I like this game. I like the art style. characters. crazy references…basically the whole product. YES I agree, the 360 one lacked the finalized polish. But being a fan of the game, I want to see it (see: the game, I don’t give a flying dog shit which version) succeed! Yes, I’m late to the party, but what the fuck ever! You don’t have to be top dog of something to be a fan of it.
So, Archer, you do realize the onus is actually on you to prove what you actually said, right? But let’s figure a couple of things out.
Your claim of Big Baller Mike Z rolling the fat cash. Couple of issues here. There’s still a team because they seem pretty damn dedicated to actually want to still work on the game despite the shenanigans that has gone on so far. The story behind what’s happened has at least been confirmed by Ravidrath and Kinucakes. So according to them, yes, they haven’t been getting paid in quite awhile but they still want to continue work on Skullgirls. So there wouldn’t be ‘fat profits’ for him to just whip out.
Mike Z being sued: SpaceOutNightmare already pointed this out and you refuted it by pretty much going ‘well you’re wrong’. Where’s your proof that MikeZ is being sued and not because of the whole Def Jam Rapstar thing which he wasn’t even a part of? And they haven’t been ‘offered’ a sequel. He’s talked about the team trying to pitch a new game. To, y’know, try and make money.
360 inferior: The main issue on the 360 version with a number of older machines were issues with load times. It’s not something that ever hit me but they did acknowledge that it was happening in some very specific cases. Would it have been nice if it was found in QA? Sure. But considering their small team it could’ve been a lot worse. Everything else was the same across both versions. As for the patch: the title update limit on 360 is well known fact, yes. But after the patch was done you could do 1 of 2 things: Either submit it to both and try and get it worked out or just submit the PS3 one and call it a day. Your statement that they ‘should’ve applied for the server space’ has no basis in any other game I’ve seen mentioned on the system besides what you claimed. Where’s your basis for this?
I understand being angry in this situation. But sometimes bad shit happens for no good reason. Reaching wrong conclusions to justify it doesn’t help anybody. Lab zero isn’t the enemy here.
The only thing you addressed was MikeZ not being sued, which I agreed to was my mistake.
You never addressed anything else.
Rekano:
Why would you be inclined to believe what the media says, when they logically contradict the idea that MikeZ made no profit? They do this by also announcing offers for a sequel as well as the fact that these previous patches have cost money to post up. Money that a failing game would not invest in. It is intuitive to see a profit was turned, unless you don’t like discerning truth on your own.
Yes, MikeZ, while not FORCED to make sure SG reaches Evo, morally he should be at least inclined to feel like he owes us after deceiving 360 users with a non-tourney standard version as well as the garbage rhetoric he gives about MS giving him a runaround when the truth is that it really is his fault for not abiding/knowing their patch guidelines.
Knowing that he has caused 360 users ire, he should try to pander to his supporters who gave him their benefit of the doubt, and he should know he has a moral obligation to make things right with us, since there still is no definite word of the patch even coming to 360. Just that he’s JUST NOW trying to get the patch approved.
Do you know how long I have been without SG on a competitive level? (The only level I care to play at). That’s too long for me to be out of a game I trusted in the developers of, and paid my hard earned money to support.
If I and the other 360 players knew the game was non tourney standard, some of us wouldn’t have bought it. We were deceived, and are being deceived again with promises of patches that keep being delayed and thrown into a possibly complete absence of the patch in question.
I don’t appreciate any of this, and I do expect a moral obligation from MikeZ to be fulfilled in a reasonable donation that cements SG at Evo.
What makes him think I or any 360 owner would support a SG2 or DLC if the game isn’t even in large tournaments? What the point? So casual players can enjoy a competitive game? No.
JBGolden:
The developmental team will say whatever they can to pander sympathy from supporters.
Saying they haven’t been paid is a pretty easy way to sway people to give them sympathy. Saying “confirmed by the developers themselves” is like saying Bush confirmed 9/11 happened because of the Taliban. You can’t “confirm” things like this.
Why would anyone hire Lab Zero after a failed game? Especially a game clouded in controversy such as this? All signs point to deception here, and it’s pretty easy to see through if you stay objective
As for the patch, it is well known that you need to apply for MS to give you the space you request for your patch, and it is also well known that this process could take months. Why are you denying this? Also, how could MikeZ not know this patch would exceed 4MB? The information provided suggests he DIDN’T know, as the facts show that he was refused space from MS upon his first submission. This is clearly a case of negligence which is now leading to the deceptive stance propagated by fanboys that is “MS is giving him a runaround”. This isn’t true, it was MikeZ’s own ignorance and negligence that has resulted in an even LONGER wait and potential cancellation of the patch for 360.
Morality is a factor that many of you don’t really understand, but it is a factor that is important to keeping the businesses honest.
OK, this has gone on way too long. First of all, I’m not angry, I’m just utterly shocked at how uninformed you are for someone so damn stubborn (and for someone so supposedly involved in the SG scene!).
Here comes the one irrefutable piece of evidence that you’re looking for. Are you ready to see why I’ve been dismissing you as uninformed during all of this time and have refused to even say anything? Ready? Here it is!
Mike Z is not making money off of the sales of Skullgirls because** he doesn’t own it**. Skullgirls is not Mike’s intellectual property. In order for Autumn Games to accept his pitch, he had to sell his IP (a move he regrets to this day) and be under Autumn Games’ payroll in order to work on the game.
Autumn Games got sued for the Def Jam Rapstar disaster and suddenly investors were iffy. Would you invest money in a company involved in a lawsuit that claimed you never returned $15 million to an investing bank? So Autumn Games was suddenly left with the decision to let the Skullgirls team go when Skullgirls released. Mike kept working hoping that in good faith he’d be paid for his time, but he is still not in Autumn Games’ payroll.
Lab Zero Games has no money, because it’s just a group of friends. They are not even a dozen people. All of these people were dropped along with Mike last April.
Autumn Games has publicly mentioned that even if the game (a totally new IP that had no established fanbase) did not sell a lot, it sold noticeably enough to warrant a sequel, but of course that means that Autumn Games decides what happens with the IP. In the business sense, if sales performance for this IP does surprisingly well, even if it doesn’t do as well as they hope, a sequel is a good idea. And having sold 50,000 copies in 10 days is pretty damn surprising for a small, new IP.
So again, Mike was not involved in any way other than being the lead programmer on payroll until they gave him the boot. Then working on the patch hoping that Aurumn would pay for the work in good faith.
Now, to address your concerns with the 360 version. My 360 to this day doesn’t load too much longer. It only takes maybe 5 seconds longer to load anything. MANY other people also show no problems with their console. But here’s the kicker: that’s the only fault of the 360 version. The matchmaking was great, international versions could play without locking up for no reason. Plus it was released earlier on 360. It’s Microsoft’s fault for the runarounds many developers have to go through. For example: Mortal Kombat 9 had an inane system of compatibility packs because of it. Instead of helping, it made people who purchased DLC characters angry, like me, because the compatibility packs could never be forced, which means that people could just never get compatibility packs, and they would then never be able to play online against other people with DLC characters. In a King of the Hill room, if at least one spectator didn’t have the pack, no one could use the DLC. But why did they have to do this inane method? Undoubtedly because Microsoft would make them go through a longer approval process for the 360 version versus the PS3’s turnaround, so PS3 users were left wondering what the hell was a compatibility pack and why weren’t they just forced like every other update.
The 360 version was still preferred in tournaments for SG throughout anyways (and what did you say your name was? Maybe we met in a tournament!), regardless of the slowdown (which was literally the only actual downside to it and it wouldn’t even happen in every console).
So to recap:
Autumn Games owns Skullgirls, not Mike, so he doesn’t make money off of its sales but instead he made money for the time he worked.
Mike Z was a programmer under Autumn Games’ payroll until the team got laid off in April 2012 (easily verified if you have to).
Autumn Games was sued for Def Jam Rapstar monies that they have supposedly not returned, not related to Skullgirls.
Autumn Games decides what happens with Skullgirls, and if they wanted they could hire someone else instead of Mike but they will likely hire him to not lose Skullgirls’ FGC fanbase. They could just as easily hire some FGC name to work on it for the same effect as there is literally no guarantees.
The 360 version was superior prepatch except for the loading time glitch which doesn’t happen in every console, and with a small testing group was not detected.
The PS3 version had the most problems AND was the reason for the patch to begin with since US and EU copies could not play each other, but Autumn’s financial problems led to letting go of the team before any work was done on the patch.
You like facts, so there you go. EVERYTHING in here is based on fact or easily verifiable. But since you, the angry consumer, are the one wanting to know the truth, I’ve given you everything you need. Now go look for it. Or damn, at least go to Skullgirls’ OT or GenD.
So your claim about SG not turning a profit is essentially bogus, as you were using that to refute how MikeZ made money, even though he clearly did. Got it. What ever happened to DLC characters for SG? Why does MikeZ want to jump ship on SG and move on to a sequel already?
You still have not refuted anything in terms of Mike Z himself deceiving 360 owners about MS giving him a runaround, as well as 360 version not being tourney viable (where I’m from, at least, and in Evo it would be on PS3 so there’s that)
SG was released in a state where it needed a patch (holding towards made your character turn into a hotbox on tag, this would be impossible to miss during QA), so this supports my claim that SG was sold to us in an unfinished state. Maybe if they did some testing, they would realize that the game loads up slower and has performance issues as well. The game was clearly not tested on fundamental levels, but that’s only a minor point.
MikeZ, being the figurehead of SG, has an obligation to his supporters and people who gave money to SG because of him and his name in the FGC. You’re right, AutumnGames will probably hire MikeZ for SG2, but MikeZ needs to show why we should continue to support him when he hasn’t given us much reason to believe he still cares about people who are still waiting on SG. He didn’t take initiative to apply for patch space, he didn’t release the 360 version in the same state as the PS3 version, he is already mentioning moving SG DLC character ideas to a new game (even though DLC characters were PROMISED for SG), he is lying about not turning a profit, he is showing little support for SG1 in the press, already announcing possible sequels.
All I’ve gotten from you is blind support and no objectivity. How can you ignore all of these points?
Why should MikeZ, the figure head of SG, not be morally obligated to make things right with 360 owners that he has clearly wronged?
I’ve already made my donation to both his pocket, and to support his brainchild to get to Evo. Where is his reasonable contribution?
Here’s a simplification of what happened with the patch not coming to the 360.
Downloadable non-disc game became a practical and profitable alternative about 7 years ago around the time that the current generation of consoles came around. Microsoft, most likely understanding that a discless future was on the horizon and after the success of Geometry Wars, decided to expand it’s very very small Xbox Live Arcade feature. Due to whatever reasoning and lack of forethought they placed certain limitations and requirements that are actually kept mostly secret to the public for no malevolent reason and most likely out of traditional business practice. Sony, having the benefit of releasing their console after the XBox, followed up by having a similar store front, but for whatever reason decided to not have as draconian limitations (at least according to some developers). However they have their own set of problems. These rules and limitations of platforms have largely went unchanged since their initial application.
Then you have the PC platform where downloadable indie developed games have existed since you buy things on the internet, Valve Software released Steam as a way to manage the digital rights (ie downloaded games) for their games. Valve’s philosophy of incremental change and the flexibility of not being bond to hardware has allowed them to turn their DRM into the most successful digital store front of the PC platform. Keeping in the tradition of the platform patches to products would cost the developers and customers nothing regardless of cost.
What we have currently is two big console manufactures (well three if you want to count Nintendo, but they’re kind of in their own world) that are relying on hardware and business plans that have been made obsolete by software providers. Unfortunately both of these companies’ digital store practices cannot be easily changed due the stubbornness of their management.
You are welcome to disagree but this is not the thread to discuss it. I use that word very loosely. Go make another thread for it.
(also I’d like to point out that Mike Z isn’t the head of Lab Zero and is just a designer.)
(Also 2, if you’d like more information on Xbox’s Certification Process… Good luck finding anything. The one window I can offer is Giant Bomb’s “Building The Bastion” series where in one episode some of the more bizarre requirements are mentioned. You may also want to check out Indie Game The Movie for more information about the process. But As I said earlier much of it is not known to the public. The PS3’s cert process is even less known, but all I know is that it’s less ridiculous and a bit more open.
Go Forth and educate yourself. The Internet is a powerful tool for information. You have no excuse not to use it.)
I love how your entire reasoning is STILL based on something you can’t verify, yet when anyone points it out then the replies are dismissed as baseless arguments.
Mike has nothing to do with Skullgirls. Autumn Games owns Skullgirls. They decide what happens with Skullgirls. They want a sequel to build up their fanbase and gain staying power. Mike Z is a guy who worked for them at one point. He’s not working there anymore.
I don’t know how to more clearly state this. But it’s going to be dismissed anyways, so I’m just going to go to work now.
Can you AT LEAST redirect your anger to some other thread that isn’t this one? You can make your own thread if you would like. But asking an unemployed guy to make a large donation just for the sake of getting the main stage at EVO, when it will already have a presence as a side tournament in the indie gaming showcase anyways, is extremely naive.
You took one line of what I wrote, part of a sentence in fact, took it out of context, and decided to disregard all the points I made.
And you call ME a troll? Hilarious.
I can tell when my words fall on deaf ears. If this was a few years ago, I’d keep trying to hammer the points that come from an objective viewpoint into your heads, but I really don’t have that much patience for you anymore. If I haven’t been able to convince you that MikeZ is morally obligated to show us some support with a reasonable donation, then I don’t really have much else to say.
Thanks for those who participated in this conversation, I learned some things and I hope you did as well.