The guy who was originally being anal about Basquiat’s notation is wrong.
I was just defending Basquiat because I felt that people were giving him shit over something truly trivial. From the launcher onward is a fairly easy Valentine combo that does a decent amount of damage. While I feel like it’s not fully optimized as a combo, it obviously works anywhere on screen, and the super at the end is clearly optional. That definitely qualifies as bnb material, and seeing the guy say it’s not a bnb because he starts it off with j.hp is dumb. Anyone who plays Valentine knows that any of the medium/light moves on the ground can lead to her launcher, so it’s not even a big deal that he had that in the combo notation.
This, not to mention I even said in the video description that you can start with crouching light and standing light or grab (and when I posted the video I even said read the description), I wrote the notation with the j.hp because that’s what’s in the video, it’s really trivial shit that really doesn’t have anything to do with the point, the whole point was me stating my preference of how I would write down a combo.
FTR, a lot of the stuff Pethro is saying is true, a lot the stuff on the front page on week one and two that was being considered a BnB was pretty crazy, it’s like, Desk posts a combo, BNB! But to compare the combo I posted to being that far off from a BnB like some Desk shit solely because I started with an aerial is too extreme. I still think to speak in absolutes is also extreme, tell me Painwheel and Sentinel really can’t have BnBs that don’t start with standing and crouching light.
In summation I really think Matt said it best when he said “Anyone who plays Valentine knows you can do j.hp to any of her standing normals. What you are asking for is to arbitrarily cut out the first move when it doesn’t even matter.”
But onto something new… Curious, if you had to pick a strong assist to use as Parasoul that isn’t Napalm Pillar and a strong assist for Double that isn’t Hornet Bomber, which would you pick and why? I was fighting the Parasoul AI one time and it had her standing overhead as an assist and it was pretty cool actually, maybe even better than the Bike Egret.
I’m not trying to be an asshole when I say this but I truly believe you have some problems with reading. You keep ignoring shit I type for no particular reason.
For the second part of your post: her sonic boom shot thingy going straight. Projectile assists are still good; its just that after dealing with how shitty anti-air assist are in UMvC3, people are happy to have them back. Somebody was using this at The Break back in like week 2 to great effect.
The fact that people have the inability just look at a combo and take away the starter is absolutely astonishing. In most fighting games, your average combo you can do grounded, you can probably do from a standard jumping normal (there are exceptions obviously), but the combos that you go for if you get a jump in can be the same as your ground combo. This is why it annoys me when people call a perfectly valid combo wrong because it starts with j.HP.
Hit confirmable, works on everybody, not distance dependent, end can be changed to include meter usage or better positioning. Oh but wait, starts with j.HK, this combo couldn’t possibly be a BnB. You see people list jump normals in combos all the time because they ARE practical starters. Filia IAD normals, Double j.HP, Cerebella j.HK / crossup j.LK/j.MP, Painwheel flight anything, Fortune IAD normals, Valentine j.HP/IAD j.HP. It’s common for people to write up their combo with a jump in starter, but it’s up to you to determine if the rest of the combo is practical enough that you can apply it to a grounded situation as well, because that is where it’s viability as a BnB will be tested.
Parasoul has some nice ones.
LP/HP Shot - Covers the whole horizontal area. If it hits the opponent then the tear will stay there and won’t go away unless Parasoul gets hit. So the point can get hit and they can still be hit from it (saved me many times).
Tear Toss - Doesn’t get the initial hit like Shot, but will always be placed on the screen ready to explode. Seems more useful in oki situations rather than neutral. Can use the HK version to throw it full screen so its something for Peacock to deal with.
Egret Charge - Covers horizontal area. Hit grab so goes through super armour. Will still come out even if Parasoul gets hit as long as she gets past the startup. Can combo if it hits and the opponent has to deal with it if it is onscreen, so acts as a deterrent.
b.HK - Overhead. Can easily get a combo from it. Leaves them in nice blockstun if they do block it.
For double I would say cilia slide or normal throw. Slide is pretty confusing to deal with since it hits low, and it knocks them towards the point character which is nice. Throws are slept on as assists I think.
cr.LP-MP-HP, J.LK-HK, cr.LK-MK, j.MP-MK,st.MP(stagger), j.HP (st.LK-Cr.MP-St.HP xx runstop) cr.LP-MP-HP, j.LPmash, st.LP-MP-HP xx DP +HP.
its good for fitting in resets as well, you can do whatever you want after the j.lp (low/throw/overhead/command throw/grab bag) do something after the run stop, as well as going cr.LP-MK and then jumping forwards and crossing them up with jumping HK and starting a new combo, or if they block it in the corner, just DD them back into the corner again and do what you want with them.
as a (formerly) active member of my old scene back home, i can attest how fucking hard it is to actually get people to show up in real life to play matches. even if they only live 20 mins away. used to do my head in.
It’s really, really simple yet you still don’t seem to get it: If you list it starting with a jump in, don’t call it a bnb. It’s still a perfectly valid combo that works, but don’t call it a bnb. That doesn’t make it any less of a combo, just not a bnb. I open people up all the time with Parasoul’s forward+LP overhead, but that doesn’t mean it’s a valid starter for a bnb. The combo I go into from it may be the same as a Parasoul bnb, but listing the combo as using the overhead as starter wouldn’t be a bnb. You can go into a bnb from a jump in/command overhead/grab/whatever, but those moves themselves can’t be listed as the starter for a bnb.
And Cilia Slide is SUPER underrated as an assist. It’s a fast low that travels 3/4’s the screen and is particularly useful against Parasoul zoning because it can actually go right under her LP and HP napalm shots. Plus it’s really easy to combo afterwards and can make for really hard to block situations with IAD crossups/fast overheads.
Throws are crazy good as assists, especially comand grabs like diamond drop because you can set up some fun dirty option selects with them. Non-command throws work well too because people don’t expect to tech them, in fact Valentine’s regular grab could be better than her command one because you can literally do anything after it. Parasoul does have a wide array of options, very cool stuff, not sure if any of them are better than Napalm Pillar though, that thing is so good. As for Double, the slide is cool because it has so much range.
Does Peacock have good options that aren’t item drop or George’s Day Out? Those seem to be her best choices by far.
Also, could someone (because the character sub forums get no traffic) help me optimize that Valentine combo for damage? I would love to get more out of it. Once again:
(starter), c.HP, jump cancel, J.HP xx J.hk, air dash cancel, J.mp xx J.hk, land, Jump, J.lp xx J.mp xx J.hk, land, dash, S.lp xx S.mp xx S.mp xx C.mk xx C.HP, jump cancel, J.lk xx J.MP xx J.HK xx QCF KK (optional)
George At The Airshow is great because it covers an area that many characters have trouble with, HP Bang or st. HP are good to simply add a fast projectile on screen. LP Bang may have use as a reversal assist but I haven’t used it too much. And of course you could use her grab as an assist, with its huge range.
how is it that so many people are so completely devoid of common basic fucking sense?
using a j.hp before a combo DOES NOT invalidate it as a bnb. it invalidates as a good combo to use when posting damage numbers since most of the time you will only be using the grounded part. seriously that is THE ONLY reason why combos that start with jump starters are bad to call “bnb” cause they generally do more damage than non jumpin combos and thusly are a way for combo makers to throw easy damage on top of there combos… so that a combo that ACTUALLY does 8000 from val, looks totally buff when a combo maker comes in and says hey guys ive got a combo that does10,000 damage!!! WOOOHOO… and then we look at the combo and its just a standard bnb with a perfectly spaced/in corner only j.hp xx j.hp…
come on guys, use common sense pls. not everything is a bnb, nor are things necessarily exempt from bnb status just cause of hard starters… at least not in the notation sense of posting in a forum. its NOT hard to simply look at someones combo, extract the jumpin starter and judge the combo from there.
jumpin combos only really present problems when they are used to showcase damage… at which point the combo maker is just a dumbass if he thinks hes fooling people.
wouldnt a lot of characters have trouble following it up though since it gives a slide, which i dont think you can otg afterwards (i could be wrong though) it does have insane range though it always gets me off guard.
Doesn’t the term BnB essentially mean the combo you will be using the most and is the easiest to execute and/or land?
This is why I don’t get too much into Combo Conversations. My understanding is that BnBs differ from gamer to gamer, especially depending on their play style.
yes, that is exactly what it means. the combo that is easiest for YOU to land and that YOU will be doing most of the time… desks bnb’s are probably different from most players bnb’s… as are sakos.
HOWEVER!!!
there is a point at which MOST PLAYERS can ONLY land certain skill levels of combos… and in that point is where most bnb’s generally fall. most ibukis that i know cant do the sako tsumuji loops at anywhere near the level of consistency to use them in actual matches against opponents that can beat them… so they really cant be called a bnb even though technically they could since they hit on most of the bnb categories of generally easy to setup/hitconfirm/are actually worth it to go for if the player can do them at a consistency of 85% or higher… i can do them… but only about 5-10% of the time so if i were to go for them in real games every time i hit the setup, i would be LOSING damage (and thusly losing games)
in streetfighter its easy to tell what a bnb is and what is combo vid material… in versus/airdashers its harder cause there are alot more points to start combos from and alot more things to think about when doing combos such as character fall speed, air spacing, comboing off of an assist starter etc etc.
to me, bnb’s in airdashers/assist games are to be categorized… ie bnb from a throw starter, bnb from an air to air attack, bnb from a ground starter, bnb from and airthrow, bnb from an overhead… etc.
generally if the player is good they will try and transition all of those starters into a standard ground bnb as soon as possible and only vary them in the instance that they have a corner combo and the opponent is in or near the corner or in the cases where there standard ground bnb transition will absolutely not work in which case they have to use an entirely different combo, which is one of the things that can either attract or push away players from characters.
bla bla common sense bla bla
edit… some more common sense shit that i would be remiss to not mention… not only do bnb’s change from player to player… they can also change according to matchup.
ie ibuki again as an example, i use cr.lpx2,st.lp as a 3 hit starter bnb on most characters… but in certain matchups like cammy and bison as well as others, if they block crouching, my st.lp wil wiff against them making the bnb useless ad something that WILL get me killed in those matchups, so i instead have to use cr.lpx2 as my hitconfirm which is much harder to use.
point being that what costitutes a bnb is something that is mutable,malleable, and changes.
i will go on the record as agreeing that it is annoying AS FUCK to read people referring to jumpin starters as bnb’s… they arent necessarily wrong… but they are using something highly situational and generally always blocked as there starter…
now… if it were a divekick… well then no problem since divekicks have much higher chances of hitting in general.
once again though its common fighting game sense and something that people that have been playing fighting games for any considerable amount of time will just know.
if you ever watch a top player playing a fighting game for the first few times using a starter that can get ducked, its cause they dont know it… once there opponent shows them that it is duckable… YOU WONT SEE THEM USING IT ANYMORE.
Duckator (was that his name?) with the Filia/Double was actually pretty solid. I’m glad he beat that fraud Peacock/Cerebella/Double player and made him throw his iPod. I can’t remember who else got through, though.
I’m actually hoping to see some more solo play. In most of the videos I’ve seen this game is being treated like MvC, which isn’t a bad thing but it doesn’t show the whole game. I just want to see some high-level one-on-one matches; more strategic gameplay in that than just spamming your assist and waiting for it to hit-confirm.