soft-ban is a bit of a misleading term, because it doesn’t mean that the character(s) is banned, only that they are seen as “easy mode” and is generally looked down upon
there was an interesting thread from j.beaseley where he said during the late 90’s in japan, if someone picked claw in the arcade the other guy would get up, walk away, and leave you to play the cpu, lol
Goodness, you would have to be an incredibly rude and ignorant female dog to do something like that.
That’s pretty offensive, and it makes it look like you are still a teenager.
Well geez, if a single word can get your panties in such a bunch… I’ll go with something else.
Please do! 
You can’t just read posts by themselves; you also have to analyze them and consider the context. Many 90s US arcades (esp. on the east coast so I hear) played by scrub rules where ticks and traps were considered cheap. If someone beat you in half a minute using just wall dives, would you just pop another quarter in and go for your next beating? Plus, I recall hearing that at times, even Kurahashi was left alone to play the AI because other players weren’t looking to get crushed so quickly.
^ i have no idea what that post was on about. but yes, claw was soft-banned
No he was not in Japan. Claw was not soft banned. O.Sagat was not soft banned in Japan. Those are myths that have persisted throughout the U.S. community for quite some time. There is no proof whatsoever of any soft banning. Where is the proof because I’ve never seen it? Not only that but there are videos that go way back of the Japanese SSFIIX scene where Claw and O.Sagat are present in tournaments and casual play. And only within the last two or three years was Claw seen as the best character in the game where before pretty much everyone put him below O.Sagat and Dhalsim.
The only characters in SFII to receive hard bans, that I know of, are Gouki (in both ST and AE) and CE.Dictator when SFII:CE was the tournament standard years ago. There are some more casual friendly ST and AE tournaments now in Japan where Gouki is allowed but those aren’t serious competitions like Gian Recital, Star Cup, X-Mania, or SBO. Way back in the day, arcades in the U.S. would sometimes limit or outright forbid CE.Dictator use, because the character was just so incredibly dominant with tournament wins. When AE came out CE.Dictator was actually toned down slightly from his original CPSI version, but he still emerged as arguably the best overall character in AE, and he was never outright banned nor soft banned (people booed at EVO2006 whenever someone chose CE.Dictator).
For a few years, maybe 2004-2006, the SuperStar Cup had a rule where you could only choose two of the ‘big’ characters for your team in the 5v5 event. So in a team of five you could only field two of O.Sagat, Boxer, Claw, Dhalsim, and Chun. This is really the only example I can think of where the Japanese actively discouraged top tier character use.
And seriously, why would Claw or O.Sagat be soft banned in Japan when pretty much every other arcade player in 3S rocks a top tier character? Would the Japanese soft ban Claw and O.Sagat but then rush to CE.Dictator and CE.Guile when AE came out? It just doesn’t make any sense.
Yeah, we’ve all read that before; please carefully read what you’re quoting. Where is a soft ban mentioned there? If you ask US ST players nowadays, some will claim he’s an “easy character to play, and not fun to play against.” Try using a hyou bal strategy with claw on GGPO and see how many people ragequit; and they’re not even spending any money. So if you saw and heard that from US players, would you suddenly also assume that claw was “soft banned” in US tourneys? You shouldn’t, because that’s never been true and there’s no logical connection between the two anyway.
Plus, you need to keep in mind that at that time, only More Balrog played claw at More. According to NKI, More Balrog was already a despised person who cut in front of lines so you can imagine players wanted a reason to hate him anyway. So keep in mind that part of the antipathy towards More Balrog may be due towards the player and not necessarily the character.
Finally, let’s hypothetically assume there was a “soft ban” (which I define as a tacit agreement to not use a character) in Japan. Is it still in effect? Are ARG, Noguchi, Kachu, MAO, Aomori, and other claw players breaking that code by entering tourneys this year? If not, when did this supposed “soft ban” stop? Did X-Mania Gaiden from 2005 not know what it was doing by inviting 2 “soft banned” claw players? Was it some unwritten agreement to suddenly “un-soft ban” claw in Japanese tourneys (even though claw players have appeared in every X-Mania so far)?
When you look at the circumstances, there’s no evidence of any soft ban for ST in Japan except against Gouki, and he’s since been hard banned for clarification. Claw and o.Sagat enjoy tourney play even to this day, although I’m sure some JP players don’t like playing against them.
seeing those characters played in videos or played in tournaments is neither here nor there. it’s an attitude towards the use of those characters, and as you can see from that quote, it was looked down on. it’s not an “agreement”
“Derogatory Japanese slang” 
There’s also stuff like Gayga used as “derogatory American slang.” And o.Sagat’s endless low tiger barrage gets mocked both in the US and in Japan. But what you’re defining here isn’t a “soft ban” but rather dislike towards a particular tactic or character. Some folks look down on Chun Li in 3S as being easy good but would anyone consider her “soft banned” anywhere? No, unless your personal definition is out of whack.
I’m making a big deal on this point because for awhile now, people have thrown out “soft ban” so commonly and it’s based not on firsthand reports but rather on untenable connections that are assumed to be accurate. Gouki was a true “soft ban” by complete lack of use, 1 man teams, and creative obstructions (mess up the code attempt and you automatically lose). But eventually, because players were fed up by those who tried to use Gouki anyway, that became a hard ban explicitly mentioned in the rules. Neither claw nor o.Sagat have ever reached the level of Gouki back in his “soft ban” days (there are more claw players now in fact) so it’s just ignorant to refer to their status as such.
as i say, soft ban is a misleading term. the trouble is you seem to have come up with your own idea for what soft ban actually means:
and then when things don’t tally to what your definition of what soft-ban means, you see that as proof that there never was any soft-ban because it doesn’t meet your criteria of what that actually is, hence we get comments like:
it’s not my personal definition, and you see exactly the same comments in that quoted passage earlier that they are seen as “weak” characters
anyway, what’s more interesting to me is that quite clearly there are certain aspects of ST that the japanese community consider “cheap”, which is at odds with your country’s belief that nothing should ever be considered cheap.
I seriously find it strange how Claw and O.Sagat were considered cheap and easy mode while Boxer wasn’t considered as such. Did they just not know much about him back then?
I don’t believe that definition of “soft ban” to refer to characters “looked down upon” is common but I think anyone reading this will see what’s being referred to and can make their own decisions.
Anyway, some players in the US cry cheap too (ticks, traps, throwing, long range zoning, etc.) and look down upon them. After all, it’s certainly true that some tactics require less effort than others for the same or better effect. But the general US attitude towards competitive fighters (since the true competitive scene started, after the “no throws” era) has been laissez faire. This attitude is probably why folks here tend to view the Smash scene and their artificial regulations with disappointment.
When a fighter can’t be played as “anything goes,” then the developers are to blame and that game normally suffers a quick end here. Sirlin’s “Playing to Win,” while sometimes mocked today by scrubs, is really a good description of the overall mentality. And as questionable as some SRK posters may be, I’m glad that idea has been reinforced over and over again up to this day (to the point where the audience is cheering for cheesy wins).
But you can’t equate a scene’s general attitude to each individual player’s attitude. Noguchi seems to be trying to win at all costs whereas some folks like ARG seem to incorporate honor into their play and not just an all-out desire to win. But when ARG is pushed in a big tourney, even he tends to go back to the wall diving tactics he normally doesn’t like to use. And in the US, the land of no honor, you still have some good players who prefer to use straight tactics to win.
no, absolutely. and even during the old days when perhaps this “soft ban” attitude was more prevalent, you still have the odd cases of people like MORE balrog who would use claw regardless of if he was hated for it or not. coincidentally, ARG is actually a respected player over there, and i know doutor was impressed by how much he’d gotten better in the last couple of years. although yeah, when he’s in a pinch… 
i know we’ve chatted about this before, but the japanese sometimes have a very odd sense of “honour” or respect with ST. an example would be counter-picking, where if someone deliberately counter-picked you, it would be seen as “weak”, but if you were then to make that complaint vocally, you would be the person to be seen as “weak”… :xeye:
a lot of their tournaments also require you to choose and stick with 1 character, or for 3-on-3 events both teams may have to declare the order they’ll run their characters blindly to the tournament staff before each fight. so that’s another level of artificial limitation
for them, they always separate human ability from character ability when assessing someone’s play. just because someone lost a match that isn’t to say they were the worse player. and similarly if someone wins, that doesn’t necessarily mean they were the better player. or two players can play, one will win and one will lose, and they can both be excellent. or they could both be terrible. it’s all about the content of the play rather than the outcome.
by human ability, they mean lack of mistakes (whether that be missed combos or missed punishment oppurtunities), ability to control the flow of the game, execution, mind games, mixups, etc
i think the upshot of all of this is that by not always trying to maximise your chances through character ability, your human ability is forced (and encouraged) to close the gap, making you in theory become a better player for it, and the scene as a whole more enjoyable to play and compete in
It veered off into that direction in my rebuttal to VF4. If you weren’t as dense as a London fog, you would’ve realized none of this is about EC vs. WC. It only served as a tie-in to a more pertinent point, which by now I’ve made abundantly clear numerous times, and one that apparently, but not surprisingly, went straight over your head. Reread everything I’ve said, and as you’re doing that, have someone hold up flash cards so that it can be incrementally broken down for you at a rate your feeble brain will be able to process.
Why are you beating a dead horse? Sighs I’ve addressed and debunked ALL of this malarkey in my prior posts. Reading is fundamental.
Check your facts genius, he did play Wong. Quoting DSP “Justin Wong was pretty much beating everyone on the east coast in Super Turbo until I stepped up a couple years ago and I beat him twice, once at Evo-East '06 and once in '07.” Straight from the horses mouth. I CORRECTLY brought him up in a rebuttal, which I’ve already explained why, and then you in your infinitely borderline retarded wisdom thought it would be a good idea to baselessly start singing his praises…
AAAAAND STILL continue to do so with unabated IGNORANCE. LOL @ “He forfeited a hdr tournament…great, do you know him personally and the reason why he did this?” So let me get this straight, you’re absolving him for this? LOL! Wow. Talk about being knee-deep in knob polishing. Sheesh. “He has told me that he doesnt like hdr and he rarely enters tournaments for it.” Hey, ancient master of the obvious, welcome to something that was established from JUMP STREET. Seriously, is English your second language?
Evo regionals were fodder for the braindead. If they meant nearly as much as you think they do, they’d still be around. Only someone as dead from the neck up as DSP and yourself would be tooting their own horn about something that hasn’t existed for years and probably never will again.
MWC '08, Evo '08, MWC '09, and MWC '10. I think those would qualify as major ST
tournies.
Ok, now you’re just making shit up. Where did I say s-kill, Wong, and NKI weren’t good players? I just said they weren’t top players. Also, where did I say, much less IMPLY, that “ANYONE” can get top 8 at Evo? Your lifeline of credibility is rapidly depleting and turning into a flatline of a steady dose of FAIL. Congrats, you’re a winner.
The only things you’ve managed to DISPROVE in your mindless meanderings is your critical thinking skills, cognitive abilities, and overall competence as it pertains to this discussion. The best part is that you did most of it all on your own. I’m sure your family would be very proud.
My facts were 100% correct and corroborated my opinions, which are 100%
unadulterated TRUTH regardless of what you or any one of your lackies say or think.
You’ve done nothing but skew the facts, twist my words, and completely overlook the bigger picture of this discussion by littering it with half-truths all in the name of blind loyalty to an absolute fucking assclown. Ladies and gentlemen, a pillar of goodwill and YOUR American hero, John Rambo.
Yes, I suppose it is commendable, but only to an extent. That doesn’t mean they should be exempt from reproach. Just because you try to keep something alive DOESN’T mean you’re going about it in the RIGHT way. This is EXACTLY what’s happening and the CRUX of what you and DSP’s henchmen in this discussion continue to skirt around and refuse to acknowledge.
That’s IT, right there. How does setting a bad precedent, which is what’s clearly being done by the people I’ve called out, help anyone get better? Why should that be ignored? Your defeatist attitude, nonchalant brush-offs, and quiescent acceptance of this very fact is precisely why not getting past the first round has been par for the course. Don’t you want to see that change?
This is what I’m NOT doing for the ST community and damn proud of it. If YOU really loved the game, YOU’D stop THIS nonsense right now instead of defending it. Anyway, I’ve already addressed this in the last paragraph of my post in response to Tetsuosan.
I’d like to think of myself as an evaluator of ST talent, but more importantly, an evaluator of REALITY. Much more important in the grand scheme of things if you ask me.
Already made it perfectly clear who I have a vendetta against in my retort to VF4. Hope you’re not one of them, even though you seem to be.
Not hard to see anyone for what they are nowadays. People where it on their sleeves more than they’d like to admit and is, more often than not, reflected in their handles behind a computer - quite conspicuously as a matter of fact.
LOL @ the words “admire” and “study”. Are you kidding me? Can you possibly be more naive than you appear to be? Are you honestly telling me with a straight face that something of any relevance can be picked up from his gameplay that can even remotely be construed as helpful? Is that what you’re saying? Come on now. You can’t be serious. He panders to the misinformed and caters to the stupid, which he then unabashedly tries to pass off as a gesture of goodwill. Please open your eyes.
You should be more inclined to agree with me, not because I should school someone in order for you to do so, but because I’m right. If you need someone with clout to tell you that to be convinced, well then, I guess you’re no better than the rest of them.
Well, I don’t watch them personally but any novice could probably learn a lot from the material, including how to counter bad offense that you may not see in JP videos. To me, any ST content is good ST content.
Anyway, if you’ve seen my posts, then you know I desire direct tests. I don’t trust anyone telling me anything until I see it. So if anyone provided me those results, I’d be the first player to champion those opinions. For example, at MWC 2 years ago, the EC contingent (well, just damdai and Chris Doyle) really beat down the midwest. That’s why I would say east coast is stronger overall than the midwest at ST. If WC demonstrated something similar against EC, I would say the same thing. But until that happens, I can’t say for sure what the result will be even if I suspect that WC has an edge.
And it sounds like you’re actually not the GGPO troll (although your earlier statements were really similar) so my bad for being perhaps excessively negative. I still don’t think it’s wise to put players down just off a hunch though.
06 they played AE and not st, 07 dsp beat him in the semi’s and the top 8 was full of players from all over the country. Your initial arguement was that dsp did not beat anyone but wong. You are wrong.
no but he is this guy-
"DSP is horrible and shouldn’t be allowed to attempt to qualify for this game. TheMuffinMan was a bad enough reflection of the US last year, but if you send DSP you’re really hitting rock bottom.
Nohoho ask DSP for names of people who in his words “consider him a top pro player” in ST. I know it couldn’t have been Afrolegends because he’s made it very clear over the years that he thinks DSP is ass, which I couldn’t agree more with if my life depended on it.You and anyone else in NYC as a 2-man team would have a better chance of qualifying than as a hat trick with DSP as your 3rd. He’s absolutely horrid. Every good player on the east coast should refuse to be his teammate so that he’ll be forced to have to ask Jion Wansu to be one of his dreadfully and incomprehensibly bad partners."
nohoho replies- “Along with FlashG, DSP is one of my northeast ST heroes. He’s pretty damn brilliant and always a blast to fight against”
someone passed this along to me from nohoho’s site, hopefully this guy is just the kind of stalker that follows and posts about someone on the internet and not the type that breaks into people’s homes and stabs them.