Because 3-hit jump-ins are obviously so difficult and impractical.
SF2 is nothing like Alpha series. ST didn’t have anything like the CC or VC system in place. CE-ISM makes it way too easy to win a match based on a few lucky hits.
Again, why go to all the trouble of learning VC’s, CC’s or even chain combos if I can just do
:uf::hk: > :hk: twice and kill you?
What this kind of thing does is greatly shorten the skill gap, and encourage scrubby play.
This would be fine, if we weren’t also the community telling everyone else to play to win, how to play their games, that their game sucks, that they shouldn’t ban things, and that SF is the best series and has the best games to where we don’t need to stoop to that level.
SF players are forged in competition, and figure out how to overcome broken tactics, we don’t resort to whining and banning!!
haha what a load of BS that was, we’re all the same, when we don’t like something we cry and want it changed just like everyone else. When it’s not our game, we can act all macho I guess.
Maybe someday we’ll live up to all the BS we preach, that day is apparantly not today.
I still think we should see tourney results before we ban anything…
…but the case against CE ism is a good one. A lot of people compare it to the damaging A-combos of Bison or Sakura in CvS2, Cable in MvC2, A2 Rolento, or V-Gouki. But in all honesty, those are all bad comparisons. A big difference between them: they have to have meter to do all those nasties! Cable without AHVB is not too big a threat (yeah, he is good, but not great); A2 Rolento does great with the CC but once he runs out of meter it is an uphill battle; Bison and Sakura in CvS2 are great characters, but they lose that edge when they use up their meter. Even in this game, you have some characters taht can do almost 90% with one combo (Blue ism Rose, for example).
CE groove has nothing to lose. They have no meter that does hideous amounts of damage. You might as well be playing against someone with infinite meter!! Blue Rose can parry->cr strong->drill->aura Soul Throw for 85% damage. After that, she isnt a threat anymore since her big ace in the hole was used. All she could do at the most is like 20% with cr strong->drill. CE Ryu can do the standard 3 hit fireball combo and do almost 70% life–then repeat it is he dizzies. All risk is in his favor. He has nothing to lose. He barely takes extra damage. He dizzies like a god, and he damages like a super. Hell, screw footsies. He can walk up to you, and jam on fierce or forwards or something. Sure, you an trade, but you take 20% from one blow while he takes about 7% or so. And of course, he has the added bonus of being able to hurl you across the screen easily since his max throw range is about a character’s length away–outranging some character’s pokes. He might walk into a super sooner or later, but you what? He can come back, since you already lost your meter, while he still has plenty of love to give you. He connects 3 pokes or so in a short amount of time–dizzy. You dizzy==dead. And he can repeat it the next round since he has no meter to gain, while you still might have to do regain it.
Granted, the above description is pretty generalized–after all, to be getting nailed so frequently by random pokes is pretty bad. But it is the same kind of uphill battle it was for the ST characters when gouki was introduced…
I agree, the case against CE is strong, and in all likelihood might end up getting the axe, but even then doesn’t it seem unfair to ban CE across the board instead of just the really overpowered CE characters? Some of those combos in that video for CE characters take a lot of timing and skill. Others don’t. I would rather see it in the future come down to “We’re banning CE sagat and bison” rather than “CE is banned.”
Capcoms answer to their overpowered characters was making their hitboxes crazy small, so we should work on exploiting that before we give up all hope.
Oh give me a break. There is a limit to what’s OK because it’s “in the game”, and it’s fairly obvious that Capcom stopped trying/caring a while ago anyway. Hell, just look at CFE.
You know what, I don’t have as much of a problem with all the other ISM BS, because at least that stuff takes some semblance of knowledge and skill to use. Anyone can do that stupid Sagat combo and kill you. All they need is a single lucky jump-in.
What CE-ISM does is encourage “shennigans” as it were. You really want to fight a spastic Vega player using that mode? Try missing a parry against someone on CE; see how well that goes over. Maybe the top level guys find their way past this crap, but I’d wager that a lot of mid-high level players get eliminated by random CE scrubs.
Is there a counter? Probably, but the fact is that other ISMs will have to work way too hard to counter something that requires minimal, and I mean minimal effort on the other person’s part. Hell, I could probably luck out a few wins on Valle or Watson if you put me on CE-ISM.
Fact is, no matter how good you are. You’re going to get hit. Even if the other person is total trash. The problem here, is that on CE-ISM, those random hits do way too much damage.
It’d make for boring and terribly simplistic matches anyway. The crowd at EVO would likely get sick of seeing it real fast.
This sums it up perfectly.
If you want to be constantly fighting an uphill battle against characters who can kill you in 2 3-hit combos, you go right ahead, but I think there is a point where we should say enough is enough.
^ Exactly…i dont see what the debate is guys the CE characters r broken pure and simple. I almost feel bad complaing about Sagat an Blanka in CVS2 now by comparison. I think the people who are complaing that it shouldnt be banned r a bunch of random scrubs who want a fighting chance at evo so there encouraging a ism that makes every no skill punk a GOD.
Those Guy combos need to start with a Bushin chain in the corner. Or land a super on a certain part of the screen. First one is NOT easy to land (and you deserve to get wrecked it you let them land it) and the 2nd requires meter (and is harder).
It’s good, yes.
But he doesn’t have 20% damage pokes, biggest one-button throw range in the game (with least startup?), the ability to link practically anything (moot I guess with DS but still), CPS1 chains, etc.
DS-ism also does reduced dizzy damage… so you need these big fancy combos to Dizzy (And AFAIK, no other DS character has this kind of setup). His fierce does 8 stun. CE-Sagat/Shoto/Honda s.rh does 32 stun. THIRTY-TWO
The effort put in doesn’t compare to how easily CE characters can do the same (more) damage/dizzy. It needs meter, or specific hard-to-get circumstance. A jump-in is MUCH easier to land than a Guy s.lp near the corner.
It doesn’t compare at all IMO.
Fighting CE is like fighting an SNK boss character. “Wtf?? I busted combos on him and he only hit me like 3 times! How did I lose?” Blocked blanka electricity does more than a fierce punch. A blocked CE fireball does more damage than a connected A3 fireball. etc…
Says the scrub complaining about Sagat and Blanka? Pot, meet kettle.
Boxer:
That’s fine, and if something was going to be banned, it would be CEism. But we need time. We need concrete proof in the form of tourney results before we swing the ban stick. At least 2-3 solid, high profile tourneys. Give people time to develop a strategy before we ban the characters. EVERY new fighting game goes through this cycle, it’s up to us to break out of the scrub mentality and try to play the game before we start crying about broken characters that are too hard.
My question is where do we draw the line between what is broken, and what is not. Is it how many button presses it takes to kill somebody? How many links a character has? How far their throw range is? Seriously, how do you quantify brokeness in a character?
Example: CE Sagat has a jump in HK to standing HK dizzy. A2 Rolento has an activate -> C.HK, jumping lk custom that does the same amount. DS-Guy has these crazy situational corner juggles. P-Rose has crazy special cancel to super combos.
Where do we draw the imaginary line of whats acceptable, and whats not? This is a serious question, how can you quantify what is broken and whats not? Because it takes meter? Because the link is 2 frames? Because it takes more button presses? Because poke ranges are too short?
IMO, in order to ban CEism across the board, you’d have to show that the WORST CE character in the game is MILES above the BEST non-CE character. You’d have to do this at a major. And then we can talk about banning CEism. However, keep in mind Mag/Sent/Storm/Cable have been dominating MvC2 for years, and look how fun/popular it got. Look at Blanka/Cammy/Sagat/Bison/Sakura in CvS2. Look at O.Sagat in ST. Look at Ken/Chun/Yun in 3s. All of these constantly win majors, but nobody (except for the scrubs) cry about banning these characters.
As far as I know, ST Akuma is the ONLY character that was ever banned from a capcom game, and even that was only in the US (Japan had an honorable “don’t pick him” soft ban). And that was only because of one game mechanic, the air fireball, that literally gave him a free win against pretty much EVERYONE. IIRC, Japan has also recently agreed he might not have been as broken as everyone thought originally, and who knows if leaving him in the game would have upped the notch of competition even further.
Even if this game became a CE-ism fest, that still leaves 12 competitive characters. Thats still better than most games. And we have just barely BEGUN to scratch the surface for this games potential. Give it time to evolve.
That’s all we’re saying.
We cant give it time to evolve because we already know its broken…i mean why not allow Gill in 3s or the EX grooves in CVS2. Why cant people just respect fair and legit tournies that reflect the ability of the player and not the cheese of a character. The line is drawn when a character can dizzy u in 3 hits…i mean come on these guys r probably worst then a SNK boss. It doesnt matter how good u play its impossible to beat them…they r GODs in this game.
Oh and by the way im no sccub, i beat Chun,yun,ken players with Sean,Twelve and Akuma quite often so its not like im a whinning scrub. I know the difference bewteen a uphill battle and a impossible match.Sean vs Yun in no way compares agaisnt R.Mika vs CE bison…hell even a terry vs blanka match is more fair. I mean theres not even a fighting chance of victory here…there just to damn good.
Oh, ok so 3 hit Dizzies are what seal the deal. Ok, so any CE character with a 4 hit dizzy should be ok by your book?
Gill isn’t allowed in 3s because he wasn’t arcade selectable. Same with CvS2 and the Ex grooves/console only characters.
And having a scrub mentality has nothing to do with beating Yun with Sean. Besides, I’ve beaten random mexican chuns with random shit before too. Doesn’t mean I’m no scrub when it comes to playing. Skill aside (what have you done tourney wise?), you have a scrub mentality, plain and simple.
There are tourney-proven A3 players that laugh at how retardly good CE-ism is, and say we have to ban it. I think Cole knows what he’s talking about yes?
This is not an arcade game, we can’t use the “They’re not arcade selectable” thing either.
I think that everyone is just saying it would be a much better game right now without the EasyWin-ism.
There are ways to consistently beat CE-ism but it’s either dull to watch (ala A1 Akuma), or very specific to which character you are fighting… While I don’t think CE-ism is unbeatable, it gives at least a two to one advantage in favor of the CE character and makes the game a lot less fun to both play and watch as a spectator.
How do i have a scrub mentality…i clearly implied i dont have a issue fighting high tier with low tier characters and i dont think i have to be some tounry ranked dude to say im a pretty good player because i dont do random shit to win i acutlaly parry and execute and out think my opponent (by the way all the major tournies are way to far from where i live and i dont have a personal jet to get from here to vegas whenever i feel like it). Am i sccrub because i dont wanna fight agaisnt a character who can kill me in 5 hits…am i a scub because im afraid to jump in on a character who’s anti air takes 40 to 60% of my life. I mean excuse me for trying to suggest a fair and even contest here, cause im guessing people wanna go into a fight at least knowing theres a chance they can win. Wat fun is there going into a competition knowing your gonna lose already…Capcom made a mistake with the CEism. As fans its our job to corrrect and fix an obvious flaw. Im sure even diago would agree with me on this one.
Exactly.
To be fair, as much as I like and respect cole, he was the first one to jump up and say how PS2 alpha anthology wasn’t good enough to play (as in arcade perfect). And he was wrong there, wasn’t he?
Re Rik:
I’m sorry, I’m not going to waste my time debating with somebody who thinks that only A3 characters should be allowed in Alpha Anthology because the rest of the cast is broken. Sorry. Go play in Canada (and lets not forget X-Box Live, the source of the best of the best) against some more against random people, and keep deluding yourself that you aren’t just like the thousands of other scrubby fighting game players who whine about broken games. Learn some grammar, grow up a few years, then come back and we’ll talk.
As far as CE giving a 2 to 1 advantage, how the hell do you quantify something like that? You’re pulling numbers out of your ass. If it truly is the case that EVERY CE character has a 8-2 (or 7-3) matchup against EVERY non CE character played at the HIGHEST level of play, then yes it should be banned. But until then, you’re pulling numbers out of your ass for an argument when I’m challenging you to QUANTIFY your generalizations.
I did pull that number out of my ass, it’s my personal opinion on an opinion board. Doing as much damage as a super with a tiger shot, dp, sonic boom, etc will gives a noticeable advantage to an -ism.
And you cannot say watching CE Sagat v CE Guile isn’t fucking boring as shit to watch and to play. And any match with A1 Akuma is like watching old people fuck, it?s funny at first but it gets pretty god damn old after a while… You can?t say an advantage isn?t given to CE characters, it obviously is? if anything 2/1 might be a bit low.
Next time I?ll break everything opinion down with pie charts and a PowerPoint presentation.
Pimp willy: I love how relevant your insults are to the topic at hand, instead of intelligently defending your position on this matter you resort to hurling unprovoked insults to distract and detour focus on what is really the issue here. On that note, besides only offering a difference of opinion i associated all my commentary with relevant subject matter relating to the content of this particular post. If you want to have a flame war you can go ahead and do so my friend, in fact ill even give you the last word so you an feel some small feat of accomplishment so you can go on for another 4 or 6 post about how right you where.
However you are correct in saying there is no point in debating this, the Ce-ism characters are broken pure and simple. Although i do not agree with banning certain tactics or characters based on pure speculation, this serves as the first instance in which live testing is not necessary because we can determine just from casual experiences how unfair this ism really is. I will admit in not being correct with my initial comment about allowing only A3 characters because i drew a uneducated conclusion to quickly, on this matter though i think i speak for the overwhelming majority when i say the Ce-ism characters should never be used in anything competitive. Even if people are willing to test out how this would fair in major tournies, what happens if the ism dominates completely…basically the game is completely ruined so why risk a outcome that everyone knows will happen.
I say lets get this shit popular, get folks playing, then unban it and show them the nasty truth… this game could be a fuck load of fun if people will just give it a chance, hopefully the vids out of the casuals at evo will get people into it.
That’s a big assumption you’re making there buddy. Toronto has some good players.
Actually, CE Guile vs. CE Sagat would probably be a great match, since that was a great match in actual CE.
CE stomps a lot of the A3 cast. So what? So do the A2 and A1 casts. Most of the A3 cast aren’t that good, relatively. PLay more CE vs. A2/A1 or trying messing around in the new S-ISMs and then get back to me about banning stuff. If you’re going to ban CE characters, especially ALL the CE characters, you better ban the likes of A1 Ken and A1 Akuma as well. A1 Ken/A1 Akuma > say, CE Chun or CE Gief.
OhNoos:
Actually, I have more fun with the CE characters than most other characters in the game, simply because the characters feel right in CE, even with retracted hit boxes. I have no idea why Guile, Sagat, Blanka, Zangief and Honda aren’t like that normally (not in terms of life/dizzy damage, just in terms of general play). The damage is about 20% higher than it should be though for accurate CE, which is unfortunate.
Also, who gives a shit about spectators? The players aren’t playing to please spectators, they’re playing to win.
Also, from Rik:
> Why cant people just respect fair and legit tournies that reflect the ability of the player and not the cheese of a character.
I’m laughing my ass off at this statement. And pretty much everything else that boy types. FUCKING LOL.