startup
EX cannon spike is useless, by the way. I have no idea what you’re talking about there.
When that potential downside is gifting your opponent an opportunity to hit you for 500+ damage, yes.
And i just told you you’re wrong, possibly due to unfamiliarity with sf4.
And again, if i get what you’re going for, you really should pick a fight vs fadc, not dp punishability because every character i can think of can get their best punish on a lp dp always, except for oni’s but that doesn’t have invincibility so it isn’t mashable.
If it’s not hard for you, great. But it is hard for others. Akuma’s landing recovery on all DP versions is 18 frames. No one has a problem with those. But Cammy for example has only 12 frames combined with the huge pushback, and Ken’s recovery is just 8 frames on the jab one, and 9 on the fierce one. I’m sure divine players such as you have the timing skills needed to punish everything perfectly every time, but for a player trying to improve at the game it’s a source of frustration.
It’s cool that you’re reading frame data to your taste and ignoring air recovery, which lets you dash and punish cannon spikes or walk up and punish if you’re feeling lazy.
So yeah, every dp is always punishable by your best combo, even by a mediocre player such as myself.
Oh no not people getting frustrated at fighting games, ANYTHING BUT THAT.
Jesus christ the air recovery time is not what matters, but the landing recovery. If you do the punish too early you get an air hit, which usually means no combo. The window where the character lands on the ground, and still can’t block is the amount of frames I mentioned. (And in Cammy’s case, if you didn’t block the DP deep enough, she lands farther away than usual, another thing to consider.)
To you it may not seem like a big deal “well just go grind the timings and the links in practice mode” but it’s annoying as fuck to have to put so much effort just to punish mindless mashing. So threads like this are understandable, even if you treat the opener like he’s completely insane.
Maybe it’s the only game you play so you don’t feel like there’s anything wrong about it, I don’t know.
math is science considering its infallible. theory’s are infallible. how did mathmeticians prove if they were right. Oh yeah, through scientific method. Don’t give me a lesson on things that are not relevant to the thread.
Sciences are bodies of knowledge that are constantly being added to or corrected. Math is an axiom: it’s always true. 1 will always be 1 and 2 + 2 will always be four. The knowledge contained within a scientific field is subject to scrutiny and if found lacking will warrant further observation and experimentation to determine its accuracy. Sciences are fallible. Math is not. Math simply *is. *And math was around way before science - mathematicians didn’t necessarily employ the scientific method to practice their skill/trade. Please know what you’re talking about before you open your mouth.
Theory’s are always being added to by newly found rules = correct. formula’s are science. They are theory’s that had to be tested before use. numbers aren’t science but almost everything else is. I’m not going to waste any more of my time talking to someone about something that’s not relevant to the original discussion.
Many characters have amazing juggle options that lead to high damage with or without ultra. Only a handful of characters have limited options on the ground and often those characters it is more important to gain the positioning advantage that a simple sweep knockdown can lead to or the corner carry off of whatever special they use.
I see both sides of the issue and while I don’t like the way the SRK works I learn to live with it and adapt and I realize it isn’t some impervious wall that beats everything and has no weaknesses.
For people talking about how it leads to 500damage combos and how it is “the most punishable move” you need to double check your data. First off, it is FADCable for most characters on block which will make it 100% safe. But even if you ignore that aspect, and ignore the small number of grounded recovery frames the move has there are much worse moves that have much less strength.
Now let’s look at 2 of Ryu’s DPs. His safest (LP) and his most invincible non-ex (MP)
LP dp only has 2F of invincibility so it can be stuffed but it is extremely difficult and requires 1F only windows in your frame traps.
3F Startup 14F Active 14F recovery in the air 10F recovery on the ground (24F total)
And MP DP has 5F of invincibility meaning it wont ever be stuffed, however it also has a MASSIVE boost to the recovery time.
3F Startup 14F active 25F airborne recovery frames 18F grounded recovery frames (at least according to the wiki, the bcm file says only 17F but w/e) so 43F total (almost but not quite double)
///
Now let’s compare that to other characters
Makoto’s Fukiage can’t be FADCed to be made safe because it completely whiffs on grounded opponents. LP (the fastest) is 8F Startup 8F Active 31F recovery. Slower, less active frames, longer recovery, all recovery frames are grounded, no invincibility, can’t be made safe compared to Ryu’s LP DP.
Balrog’s Buffalo Headbutt has trouble with crossups, requires you to hold down for 55F to charge it, and is only projectile/throw invincible unless you use EX. LP is 8F startup 11F active, 10 airborne recovery frames 22grounded recovery frames. (32F total) more punishable than Ryu’s LP DP by far and much slower with less room for error. It is also less safe on block (-22 vs Ryu’s -17) and it can’t be made safe on block via FADC
Blanka’s up ball is another instance of requiring charging before it can be used, has longer recovery time 40+4 for LP no invincibility, and can’t be FADCed to be safe.
There are many other instances of similar reversal oriented moves with longer startup, less active, and equal to or longer recovery times than Ryu’s LP DP and nearly as bad as his MP DP. Often times these moves can’t even be FADCed either (Cody’s Normal Zonk knuckle, Guy’s hurricane kicks, Rose’s Soul Throw, ect ect.)
That said, while individually many characters don’t have options as good as an SRK by any means, and while I personally think that the DP shouldn’t be FADCable on non-ex versions, you can’t view the characters in a bubble to make a legitimate comparison. All of that data I just posted is 100% pointless when you realize it doesn’t take into consideration every other factor of the character. For example, while Makoto can’t do a fukiage trade into ultra/super for 450dmg like Ryu can, she can do fukiage trade into fukiage into EX Axe kick for around 330dmg, and a hard knockdown, while still having her ultra and only spending 1 bar. While Balrog can’t FADC to make his headbutt safe, his normals are amazing and he doesn’t have to spend meter or hope for a trade to combo his headbutt into his ultra.
Different characters are DIFFERENT.
yeah I dunno what people are talking about with “it’s always been like this.” you can stuff most non-EX DPs in 3s with proper timing. the reversal window for ST is really small.
SF4 because of how it is built makes you respect defense and respect DPs on wakeup. for anyone new to the game it’s pretty irritating. and the rest of the good games in the series are not like that. new players to ST/3s do not get blown up by DP mashing the way new SF4 players do. and there’s a reason for that.
you can feel the difference when SF4 players show up in 3SOE ranked and throw out DPs like candy. they’re easy to punish, easy to react to, can’t be FADC’d and serve a totally different purpose in that game. 3s just does not reward DPs on defense the way SF4 does, and the risk is much higher. these DP habits exist because at low levels of SF4 they are at least somewhat effective.
that being said, best advice to OP is play the game the way it is meant to be played. defense is good in SF4, so respect his defense. bait out a DP, block it, then punish it hard when he lands. if you can’t punish it hard, find out what your max damage punishes are and practice them. once you’ve established that DPs are really risky for the other guy, he won’t be nearly as willing to throw them out.
wanting a full punish BnB on blocked/whiffed dp’s all the time…
shoutouts to vanilla mindset where grab or sweep into setups dont exist
Strong lack of virility by the OP, get better and stop crying, or play another game if it’s too hard for you.
Complaining about DPs? Didn’t that shit stop in the 90s?
you should have known better than to make this thread, nothing but pro’s here. even the people who joined in 09 like me or later are so fucking high level it just has to be natural talent.
you are right that things like ken’s lp dp can be hard to punish properly, especially online, but atleast a roundhouse or sweep punish shouldnt be a problem.
yeah man, we get it. You don’t like SF4, but please stop comparing this game with your anime fighters, it’s pointless.
to the OP: welcome to street fighter, mate. Yeah, shoryuken moves are good in this games - really, really, REALLY good. They are awesome. And you know why ? Because srk is a trademark move for SF series since it’s first iteration - SF1. Same for Hadoukens. It’s suppose to be good - it’s a simbol for street fighter. If you don’t like it, then play other games, but making a thread and complaining of DPs in a SF game is…hilarious, to say the least.
- what everybody said: this move also have a TON of recovery - it’s one of the most punnishable move in the entire game, and if you can’t punnish it, then maybe you should go more often into training room. Or play other games.
- about ST: what Tataki and Igloboob “forgot” to tell you is that in ST srk has way less recovery frames = way harder to punnish.
Anyway, I think this thread should be closed, or at least moved to Sakiyo Dojo.
At least address what I said instead of being a dumbass. If you don’t have a good reason to why Ken’s DP needs to have only 9 frames of recovery instead of at least 18 like Akuma’s, don’t say anything.
Look who’s misleading now… How about you tell EVERYTHING that he needs to know?
Some reversals are actually SAFE ON BLOCK in ST if done at the right range. But guess what, dragon punches don’t live in a vacuum, and are affected by other rules of the game. So the DPs in ST, while being “better” in theory, are actually not as annoying when you sit down and play the game! That’s because their motion can’t be mashed, the hit and block stun are much longer, the game isn’t as reliant on links, the walking is faster the throws are better and the pushblock is bigger, so most of the fighting ends up taking place at the range where reversals WHIFF, unlike SF4 which takes place at crouching jab range.
So if you want to hit an opponent with a shoryuken in ST, it usually means catching a limb, which is hard. In SF4 you’ll get your easy chance to do it at zero range, and it forces the opponent to stop attack completely to wait for it.
Isn’t there also stuff like Hawks j.jab beating Shoryus?