Both Remove Claw/Mask are great taunt tools, even the best in the game considering it actually weakens Vega to “make the message even more clear”, however, I don’t find a reason why the input couldn’t be changed for a one with HP + HK, Win win situation
this thread is hilarious people arguing over scarlet terror getting invincible sounds like all the rest of vega mains after battling uphill for so long will quit him if he gets something that could make situations easier
not that i care if is scarlet terror goes either way, if capcom makes it usefull outside of combos at least you have another option and people who hate having that option you could just not use the move if you think it doesnt fit his playstyle.
not really sure if his playstyle is runway tho always thought he was a poke/speed/chip character, if it was the characters stabbed would probably bleed out and youd have to stay away till bloodloss takes its toll
not trying offend anyone, capcom will hopefully sort it out
Oh jeez. What did I start? lol…
Anyways, I’ll be playing him, regardless, changes or not. But I think we all know changes are coming. Ono said himself he’s going to do things to balance out the cast even more, and that can only mean buffs for low tiers (Vega) or nerfs for top tiers (Sagat) or maybe even both, who knows.
I won a ranbat today. Vega ftw. Invincibility on scarlet terror unnecessary. Give me something to zone with. I hit with like 30 scarlet terrors today just from resets / cosmic heel alone. Then, I crossed up, and I hit more. And kara throw’d alot more. And punished with severe damage… I don’t need no invincibility.
No one is saying you can’t hit with it. The arguement isn’t over whether it is an attack with active hit boxes that function and do damage. Last I checked, it was.
It is over whether it should be a reliable anti-air. How many deep jump-ins did you stuff with Scarlett Terror? None? Great. So we are back on topic.
Exactly. People act like “some” invincibility on ST to make it more reliable (not broken, reliable) is going to turn him into some braindead character that they can win with instantly, or that it will make him into a Shoto. In reality, it will make his matches MORE interesting, because your opponent will actually have to THINK about what to do. They will still have options, but jump in blindly and hit buttons will no longer be the absolute correct answer.
^ you could say the same thing about giving him something that helps him zoning
opponents would have to think before they tried to get in
same argument
only its more INTERESTING because it adds to the playstyle vega currently has instead of defeating the purpose of being hit and run. if you had an invincibility crutch you would have no reason for not getting into trouble. besides people would just break the charge anyway and cross you up.
This is just asinine. Why the hell are people making giving Vega a proper reversal taboo?
Vega can already zone. The problem is that when someone gets in on him - which they will - he’s fucking dead. He has no safe way to break off pressure and people just aren’t afraid of walking up to him and whaling. That’s it. That is his problem. Period. Yes other things can be improved, but for the love of handsome fighters everywhere, realize that no invuln is the main factor why he has so many bad match ups (and some terrible ones).
He needs a proper ST. Every other character has tons of great tools, but Vega got the shaft and got it hard. Stop selling the character short. No one wants Vega god tier, but it’s horseshit that Vega matches are lost because a single mistake gives the opponent free jump ins and pressure until Vega just collapses.
By the way - and I think someone said this before - the reason why Vega plays this run-away game so hard in SF4 is BECAUSE he’s so damn vulnerable up close. If the game mechanics weren’t so heavily defensive already Vega would get trampled even harder.
Now, EX-ST shouldn’t be the invuln one. Vega already has enough trouble managing precious meter to mount (weak) offense. EX-ST having being the the move with the invuln frames would lead us all to choose between a likely one shot defensive move (god help us if we miss), or our offense.
I say short ST should get invuln on start up. Since short ST doesn’t have great reach, timing would be involved and the move wouldn’t be a spammable end all reversal. strong and rh ST are good enough to keep stupid jump ins out without invuln. The problem is deep stuff.
Does this somehow break Vega? Nope. Plenty of pressure can still be applied, and he can still be crossed up. All this does is make it so he doesn’t get walked over. He can still run away and his core SF4 gameplay won’t change. He won’t become a psychotic offensive beast either.
Seriously. SSF4 is probably going to be the last SF we see for a long while to come, and I much rather not have to see Vega pinned in a corner by the rest of the cast as they whisper sweet nothings into his ear about how pretty his lips are while they pull him by the hair forcing his back into an arc to sodomize him for the next decade because some people can’t understand how important a few invincibility frames are.
Vega’s zoning isn’t even the best in the game. Sagat, Bison, Ryu, Chun and a lot of other characters have a lot better pokes, zoning tools, and they are complimented by safe rushdown and invincible reversals.
Vega’s zoning is good, but not so far superior that it should be focused on solely as his one true playstyle. Being able to play a character in more than one way makes characters more interesting, and allows for more diversity between people that play him. If you believe Vega’s best playstyle is runaway, then thats only because that’s all he has, and it sounds like you would like to keep it that way so he will remain a one-dimensional character. Not sure why you are so deadset on not giving yourself options. The fact is you don’t play Vega the way you do because you have chosen too, you do it because their is no other way. If you would like to play that way later on, you are free to do so, but repeatedly trying to limit a character so your playstyle will be the only one possible is pretty shortsighted and asinine.
I will try to not post anymore on the subject since this really needs to stop. A lot of good ideas were getting thrown out and people had a lot of agreements on some important things that could send a good message to Capcom if they choose to read it.
This did get so much attention because it is probably the single biggest thing that is needed to improve him and change his game, but I don’t think either side is going to budge from here on.
a ton of the cast still don’t dominate because they have invul frames. i don’t understand purposely wanting vega to not have one thing common with the entire cast across the board. We seem to be the only ones that kinda don’t want buffs even tho we need it most, at this point i dont think anything can make him worst. He has like one option or no option in almost ever scenario. Every strat is viable against vega he doesnt really excel at anything. anything vega can do everyone else can do pretty equally or better. hes top tier in style only and what makes him special right now is that he can make himself lower tier than himself in the middle of the match.
i think some people just want vega to be an their very own exclusive character. hes like a niche band that you liked for yrs then they get play on mtv and go mainstream then you hear about them all the time from everybody and hate it(this wont happen). fighting games are pretty big right now they need to make character work for more than like 3 people … especially so a few people more can branch out to other than ken. “elites” will still be “elites” anyway , you just wont get a pat on the back because you actually won with vega from randoms
Epic.
You’re forgetting that many of us played as top tier ST Vega as well. He certainly wasn’t a ‘niche’ character then.
It’s not the entire cast - Abel and Dhalsim don’t have good reversals and they do pretty damn well.
Vega doesn’t need to thrust his claw in the air and cry ‘me too!’ just because other characters have something he doesn’t. Fix his backslash moves (10 frames of recovery is a bit extreme) and he can maintain an elusive playstyle without needed a ‘bust out’ move, which really isn’t his style.
I don’t see a reason why every character should have the same wakeup/anti air options. This just makes things less interesting.
Oh, and congrats Jozhear on the ranbat win.
^ thanks dude… I took a weak break cause i’ve been sucking lately then came back last night and won. it was pretty grand.
A lot of people need to get in to wreak Vega, sure he has a littl etrouble in the corners, but then again, u can jump off the wall, and yeah, u’ll knocked down, but then they have to keep the pressure on or else u get away and start shenanigening them into death. And no going to lie, I love his ultra… it sucks cuz u cant combo off it, but then again, right when u have it, all fireballs stop (at least once they learn u can do it on reaction). I’ve played a guy who was blocking and yelled “ultra that shit!”… so i ultra’d and caught him… its just somthing situational, and really fun when it does hit.
About his overallstyle, giving him a inv reversal… thats like having ryu’s fireballs be the gouken charged normal ones so it does two hits… its just not something he direly needs, sure, if he got it, we’d use it SOMETIMES, but his backlash is pretty baller… and I like running and getting hit cuz i’m going along with a fireball just flipping until it hits me.
One thing I want to see is his other ultra to be red impact… nothing like his claws in ur gut, eh?
decadence just to be clear I’m not really talking about anyone in particular
abel can roll not that that’s amazing/not really sure but also cant he use his command throw. dhalsim is way better at keep away has teleport they have pretty ok trade offs for not having reversals. maybe vega just needs to leave PPP behind and just cartwheel forward (can be grabbed out of course)instead maybe that will increase his mobility,increase ambiguous space game, right now the two body hops are a pretty nice part of his game maybe that can translate to more that just knockdowns . (damn that just made he think of all the crazy things blanka does too much)
Q: Why do you want an overall buffed Vega and not just a Vega with invul. on ST/EX ST?
A: Because that doesn’t make him that better. He can escape easier, but he still can’t come back in a match due to no Ultra. He would be like Guile, that guy has a reversal and still is bottom tier. Why? Because you have to play perfectly. If the opponent gets in, he’ll do a lot of damage because both characters’ health and stun are low. Now specifically in Vega’s case, even if he manages to somehow get out of the pressure, which is perfectly possible (see Makotos case), he has no way of turning the tide of the match because of no reliable ultra. In fact, Makoto probably only won against Ojisanboy because he was able to even out the match by an ultra.
So the whole problem in this match was not Vega not having an invincible attack, he did just fine without it, it’s Vega not being able to turn the tide because he has no kind of devastating ultra setup he can use. Why do you think Makoto wins often? Because he knows how to set up his ultra.
Q: So what’s wrong with giving him both a buff on offensive abilities (better slide, speed, lots of new ultra setups, better pokes, better specials) AND giving him that ST invincibility?
A: It will simply make him stupid like in ST again. You can’t deny it man, make Vega like this, and I bet my whole fortune on it, he will land in Tier S and become brainless again. With Ouroborus’ suggestions, you can:
- lock down your opponent with pokes, and if he wants to jump, because he can’t get in (and you have plenty of ways of getting out of range with EASE) he’ll get AAd by your invincible ST. You can even whiff pokes while he is jumping, Vega will recover in time, you have your ST stored and can just let go at the last possible moment and get a free knockdown.
- I know, Ryu can do this too. But Ryu doesn’t have that much range and speed on his pokes. So, you get a knockdown and can play your nice mixupgame with that new overhead and all of his other nice moves, or you can simply
- walldive crossup (faster and better?) all day, and he will not be able to do shit about it
- you mix it up with your walldive super (with that good new specials you won’t need THAT much EX) which can’t be distinguished from a normal walldive and
- and that’s about 60 % of his life gone, I guess. So, what does he do?
- He tries to get in on you again, but basically can’t jump. Now he will have to deal with all your great pokes. And he can’t fireball much either because you either beat him out of it or focus dash through them with your new, shorter dash, then punish. Or you can simply jump over them with your newly aquired gdlk jump speed, then combo, then repeat your walldive mixup again (like on every knockdown) and kill him.
- With your newly aquired flips you can even flip through pokes and almost can’t get punished.
- Or maybe you land your ultra setup.
- Or maybe you get him into the corner. I don’t even want to think about this.
- He FINALLY managed to somehow knock you down and by a chance of 50 % you guess right and he gets knocked down instead!!! MIIIIXUUUUP. AND he has to catch you again!
- Did I mention that you can escape on wakeup at midscreen by using your newly aquired flips which cover more distance? Like… Akuma teleports?
Suck it up, srsly.
^ words of golden wisdom.
Don’t give me invincibility, I don’t need it. Give me a bigger hitbox on my ultra, faster jumps to the wall, and the ability to FBA out of focus dashes.
Personally I think if EX scarlet terror had 1-5 frame invincibility, that’d be all the move needs. You’d have to burn meter and there is no guarantee it would work, which would make him similar to Chun in this regard so he wouldn’t get OP. If it trades, you’d both have to tech a knockdown and this would give a nice snap judgment call to use Vega’s normals to try and set up the zone again.
Otherwise scarlet terror should go unchanged
I can’t fault you for doing theory fighter since that is all this thread is about. But your arguement breaks down around the fact other charaters with stronger pokes that do more damage, and are safer, do have reversals with invincible frames, and they are not broken or overly dominant.
Vega is not the best poke/spacing/runaway character. Others are better, have more advantages and have invincible reversals without being braindead or broken. Invincible ST will not make him broken or simple to win with by any means. It will even the playing field.
If he gets every single buff that you listed in your post, then it could be a problem, but you should trust Capcom to do a good job balancing. They did a pretty damn good job the first time.
If you want him to be an offensive beast with little defense, then you are trying to make him like ST Dictator, and there is no merit to a “Keep Vega, Vega,” arguement.
Invincibility frames on ST/ex ST would be nice or if he could focus cancel his ST into Ultra or something. In all honesty though I would be happy with a 2 frame jab and a cross up.