Guile doesn’t have a better offense than vega. Vega has a Kara throw and a option select beating combo starter. I would take Vegas offense over guiles any day.
And I don’t know why people say capcom is lazy and won’t put effort into changing Vegas normals. Often in fighting game revisions major changed are made to normals and such in order to balance characters.
And st clearly was not intended as a get the fuck off me move. Or they would have given it invulnerability. People are talking like it just slipped capcoms mind, whoops, forgot to put invulnerable frames on that move, oh well. It’s like 4 lines of code, it would take 5 minutes, we can be pretty sure that shit was intentional.
Invunerable moves are better the faster they are, and in general the farther fowards they travel. If you give vega invulnerable on ex st without addressing this, then he will go from having no aa/reversal moves to one of the better ones in the game.
You are just now understanding how Vega’s super works? You’re going on and on about what a pro Vega you are and how you’re probably the best out of all of us and you know his ins and outs 100%, but you didn’t even know how his super works? Are you FUCKING KIDDING?
Doesn’t anyone see something wrong with that? Why is anyone even listening to this clown at this point?
Super works as follows:
~1 second window to grab
If grab whiffs, claws come out
A total of 4 swipes can occur, but as someone else said the 4th swipe usually doesn’t come out before you land unless you’re higher in the air
It does LESS damage than the Rolling Izuna Drop even when all 4 swipes land (90% certain of this - haven’t done the swipes in a while)
Unless you are close to your opponent when the claws activate, you will get less swipes. Unless you are pretty close to your opponent, you’ll likely only get 1 swipe.
Claws can be activated instead of the RID the same way the double swipe is activated on an EX-FBA
No fucking wonder why this guy is against invlun frames. Doesn’t know shit.
I think the Blanka match-up is even, if not in Vega’s favor. I can post up more in the SF4 Vega thread if you want, but the match is not bad.
Giving him something great will not reduce the overall effectiveness of his tools. That is faulty logic.
We’ve made this arguement before, but the fact is that Vega is not a runaway character, and runaway is not a real playstyle. Zoning is a playstyle, but it requires you to be able to pressure your opponent from a variety of distances. Dhalsim can do that with fireballs. Fireballs force your opponent to react to something happening in the match, and in turn, allow you to capitalize on their reactions. They allow you to control a portion of the screen completely, and then set up a mind game in which you can be the aggressor from a distance and your opponent is forced to deal with it ( either by countering, avoiding, or just plain blocking). Dhalsim has the fireball to setup this scenario, and the tools he needs to get the most out of the situations his fireballs create.
Vega has no fireball, and on the contrary, he is the projectile or obstacle that his opponents are forced to deal with. All of his special moves hurl him at his opponent. He is meant to play a game of proximity, and because of that, he needs the tools to deal with up close encounters. Stating that he is meant to be a character that maintains distance and runs away goes counter to the way his specials function and even his normals to a degree. Having a long crouching mp, standing mk and a good airthrow/jumping Fierce doesn’t make a character a zoner on their own.
You argue that Vega’s build in SF4 was unique in that he was built to be a keep away poke character, but he has typically had amazing normals for spacing and priority (Amazingly good in CVS2) in most every game he has been in. His normals are fairly similar.
I think the attributes of Vega’s build that are unique to SF4 are his new EX moves, which more than ever give him opportunities to get close to the opponent and attack them at close range. EX Roll going through fireballs get around an obstacle he has had in every game from his first build. EX Sky High and Ultra do the same and both allow him new options to get closer to his opponent and through the types of moves that used to keep HIM out. The things that make SF4 Vega unique to all his previous builds aren’t his zoning abilities. They are his specials that allow him to close distance and get in on his opponents in a safer manner (I would say safely, but this is SF4 Vega we are talking about). Walldives used to be counterable by jumping back, but even EX walldives has allowed him to get to the wall, and then attack and land close to his opponent anytime he needs. He needs a way to fight reliably in those up close situations, and a move that will beat sloppy play and reward good judgement when you are up close and outplay/mindgame/predict your opponent.
I fail to see how Vega is a different character. Its not like they gave him moves to compensate for a different playstyle, they just made all of his moves worse.
Nerfing a character’s entire moveset =/= character change. All that means is that you use the same character in a defensive way because you have no choice. If developers wanted to make Vega a psuedo-dhalsim that was meant to just keep people out, they would’ve given him better keep out tools, aka better AA normals. This was not the case, hence why I cant see Vega as a different character from ST, just merely a crappier version.
Vega’s super is trash. With the way the fourth claw swipe works, it’s no wonder that he just found out that you can combo into it (that one swipe seems to be even more situational than the super). Jozhear has been around for a while; I haven’t seen you around the Vega sub-forums at all, so don’t waste time claiming people “don’t know shit” unless you have a good argument.
I really don’t understand why vega couldn’t have both I frames on EX ST AND better pokes. I don’t see how vega’s pokes could become SO buffed, that he shouldn’t get I frames. c.MP with plus frames on block? c.HP with a c.MK shoto shrinking hitbox?
I think that’s one of the problems in the i-frame debate, is people that oppose it aren’t specific enough. Outisde of sasaki and Joz, I haven’t seen any logical argument against it. It’s all vague, “Buff his pokes”, what does that mean? How should they be buffed, and why would proposed buffs make i-frames unnecessary? “Better at run away” How are you proposing capcom do that? “Better backflips”, we all know and can agree backflips need buffing, how could they be buffed to make i-frame ST unneeded?
And again, DHEvil: How does i-frames on ST change your game? What does it stop you from doing in SF4 with vega that you currently enjoy doing? I have no problem if you genuinely think vega should get other things too, or even if you think other things are more important, but to go as far to say you won’t enjoy vega if he has i-frames is stupid.
Yes Vega’s super IS trash, but he just assumed that without having tested it fully? Someone claiming they’re the hottest shit in town going off at how we don’t understand the character as much as he does because he knows EVERYTHING there is to know, then not even knowing how the Super works over a YEAR of games release?
Good arguments? Haven’t seen me around the Vega sub-forums? Well here’s something for you jackhole, I already posted plenty and plenty and PLENTY about why Vega needs i-frames - specifically on the ST. I already explicitly said pages and PAGES ago why I-frames on ex-fba, ex-shc and ex-rcf are illogical, impractical, and in the case of the fba, TOO STRONG. Of course that didn’t stop you guys from squabbling about and resurfacing the issue of “LOL EXFBA NEEDS IFRAMES BECAUSE IM TOO DUMB TO UNDERSTAND WHY THAT WOULD BE TOO STRONG”.
Why did I stop posting in the Vega sub-forums months and months ago? Because everyone there is delusional that Vega needs “only a tinsy bit of help” and is “almost top tier with one buff!”
Here we are months later, people with straight faces claiming fights with Sagat aren’t that bad, leaning towards equal, Vega was somehow designed to be mini-dhalsim without any trait that makes dhalsim dhalsim and saying ST is useful outside combo enders and “throwing it out early”.
Here’s a hint: If someone is jumping at you THAT late while you’re waking up or at a very specific distance where ST will actually work, they are a shitty player and you should not gauge Vega’s abilities on that match.
Oh lets all start talking about how an EX-ST>DP even though it can’t be spammed, requires a DB charge and ex stock, and still leaves Vega open to cross ups. Brilliant, that’d be a hoot.
Everything has been explained logically 24 and a half million times over. It is a necessity in high level play. Vega is not a run away character. If you are still in disbelief that Vega can do without i-frames - particularly on ST, then you are stupid. You are a bad street fighter player. If you are beating people with Vega on a consistent basis then they are bad players who do not know how to punish Vega’s hilariously bad specials or exploit his hilariously bad defenses.
Do you understand?
Of course you don’t.
Trolling? I’ll lump you in with the stupid folk.
I’m sick and tired of listening to dumbshits who can’t grasp the simplest of concepts. I will openly call anyone who thinks Vega should remain I-frameless stupid; that’s what they are.
I don’t understand the need for such hostility. At the end of the day we all want one thing. A Better Vega. I understand that you’re frustrated, but everyone has their own opinions, and beliefs when it comes to making Vega a better. I for one am just happy that he has that nice new ultra, and an overhead. A lot more things can change with Vega, so I’m just going to continue remaining hopeful. Am I satisfied completely? Sure but then again I’ll use Vega no matter how bad he is. Brand me as stupid too if you’d like.
There really is no reason to insult Jozhear, I’ve played him and he’s actually a pretty good Claw player. Just because he didn’t know the super worked 2 different ways does not discredit his understanding on how to use Vega well, since the super is useless anyway lol.
As for punishing early jump-ins with ST, it only works half of the time against most jump-ins. Sagat can instant j.mp and still trade with you, no matter how early you react.
Im kind of neutral on this but im going to do a little simulation and see what yall think about it.
SF4: Vega vs.Ryu battle situation: Ryu knocks Vega down Ryu player thinks “Yea i should go ahead and rush him i can get some good damage in before he gets away”
Vega player wake up STRyu jabs out the ST
Battle situation Vega vs people with a wake up I Frame special (ok the whole cast lol except Vega)
Vega knocks ??? player down Vega:“I’ll apply some pressure” Trys to jab out there wake-up speacial but Fails miserably
Vega gets a second knock down Vega:“Dang i don’t want to approach him to dangerous”
(but Vega players would really try to Izuna loop on down players)
ok on too SSF4
SSF4: Vega (with I Frame on ST) vs Ryu
battle situation:Ryu knocks down Vega. Ryu:“lol now all i got to do is mash jabs at him when he get up” mashes jabs Ryu get ST
Ryu:"Dang i forgot they gave him I Frame on ST i gotta take more precaution on his wake-up =(*
Jozhear also didn’t know that d/f+mk goes over crouching opponents at close ranges. If you’re going to harp on why the move is good (lol), at least know what it does at point-blank range.
How the hell will invulnerable ST NOT improve his game? He will still be susceptible to cross-ups, but it stops everything else. If you think cross-ups on wake-up is Vega’s only major problem, you’re mistaken. Bison and Balrog’s AA’s are also subsceptible to cross-ups, but they’re tons better than whatever Vega has.
I think Jozhear is a good player, but he’s way over his head when he says that a better ST won’t improve his game significantly.
The ST is what made Vega a contender in SFII. If he had no ST, he would be destroyed by meaties and only be good against some characters and absolutely garbage against others. Unless your opponent is retarded, it’s not “wall-dive and win”. Right now, Vega gets destroyed by pretty much the entire cast.
You know, I kind of stopped going into the Vega forum after people said the Sagat matchup was 5-5 and that Vega-Blanka matchup is 5-5 OR BETTER. Kind of makes you wonder if they play against the computer all day. Even then, it’s not hard to see that Vega is severely lacking.
Watch most top level videos. Vega simply gets run over by Sagat and Blanka. When you have MULTIPLE Japanese players claiming that Vega is an easy matchup, there’s something wrong.
You know, I kind of stopped going into the Vega forum after people said the Sagat matchup was 5-5 and that Vega-Blanka matchup is 5-5 OR BETTER. Kind of makes you wonder if they play against the computer all day. Even then, it’s not hard to see that Vega is severely lacking.
Watch most top level videos. Vega simply gets run over by Sagat and Blanka. When you have MULTIPLE Japanese players claiming that Vega is an easy matchup, there’s something wrong.
Now I don’t venture into the Vega subs all that often (if at all), but you have to be kidding me when you say that people are saying Blanka is 5-5 or better. I can maaaaaybe understand the thinking that Sagat is 5-5…maaaaybe…but Blanka?
i said some words