Try using sky high claw to beat people willing to jump up and hit you out of the air of your flying Barcelona attacks. It doesn’t always work, and it can be a positional thing, but if you get used to using the different versions (lp, hp mostly), then it can be good for catching the opponent off guard as they ready themselves to jump up. They just end up getting stabbed in the chest.
Either that or get really good with your Izuna drop spacing.
you must’ve missed this the first time
I didn’t miss it. It just didn’t present a very interesting or valid perspective. They have a role in this game. They function. Back flips do not have either of these things. By your implied logic, these should be improved first and, with better back flips, the need for better flip kicks becomes diminished.
DHEvil: Holy fucking shit wtf I don’t even…UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!
Claw needs I frame on Ex ST. I’m not wrong. Period. He needs other shit too. He needs to be a GOOD character. Yeah, oh shit I said it. I fuckin said it. He needs to be GOOD. Just like Rose. Just like Sakura. He needs to not be in a situation where he is FREE. That’s bullshit. Struggling in a certain situation is fine. But free? No. That’s not street fighter. That’s bullshit, I repeat BULLSHIT.
All this rationalization behind why he shouldn’t have a good tool that isn’t overpowered that won’t even let him break past mid tier and you don’t want it? Ok, enjoy all your amazing offensive options in Super and still getting stomped on by mediocre players that know how to apply wake-up pressure.
Vega is not free. His matchups are not all 0-10 for a reason. His 3-7 matchups say more about the other characters than they do about him. Rufus has mindless rush down. Blanka is just a natural counter and Sagat is bullshit full stop. That’s a total of 3 really bad match ups out of a cast of 25. Okay, fair enough, 2 of those 3 are very popular at tourney play.
Every other matchup is 4-6 or 5-5 which are fine and dandy. You’re making him sound a lot worse than he actually is. Vegas’ got good shit. It just needs to be gooder, that’s all. He doesn’t need any invul frames because that’s his weakness.
Is it that hard to understand? Let’s say Vega didn’t have a single invincible move but his zoning and runaway were so good you could never land a hit. Do you think he’d need those I frames? Now lets’ reduce that gdlk zoning and runaway to a point where he becomes good enough to fly with the big boys and still doesn’t need those I frames. Why just tack those on and reduce the overall effectiveness of his tools to make up for it? Why just make him like everybody else? He doesn’t have to be.
OMG i just wantd to tell yall i did a freakin j.Hp > 3Lp > Mp > EX FBA 7 hit combo! i don’t know how did it but i did it. :lovin:
is that good or :lame: ?
but too bad bad it was only in arcade against the CPU. 
Who said anything about tweaking his shit? Give him i frame ex ST and MORE SHIT.
Make Vega one of the 4 grand kings again like he SHOULD be.
Make this motherfucker a threat.
So by your logic there in no reason to use backflips in super turbo because he has I frame ST? I doubt that. They each have their separate use. Backflips can still be used to bait reversals and avoid fireballs. ST’s can be used as a GTFO tool like its meant to be. Also if you don’t see how a move that was specifically created to be an answer for jump-ins/wake-up pressure, and became useless in most of those scenarios, is interesting or valid, then I really dont know what to say to you.
That’s… really not the point. You could make Vega the absolute best character in the game and you wouldn’t even need special moves, with the right design. My point is that Vega represents a unique character in SF4 who has to play in a very different way to ANYONE else.
WHY, WHY remove that when there are TWENTY FOUR other characters who have those I frames you so want? Just pick them instead. People who are playing Vega now and enjoy him would not find the same character waiting for them in SSF4 if he gets I frames WHICH HE DOES NOT NEED IN THE FIRST PLACE.
You want God Vega? Fine. That does not imply he needs I frames.
Assuming that making EX-ST’s invulnerable on startup would make Vega God tier is laughable. All that would do is make sure other characters would have to earn their victories in a fashion that doesn’t include using low-risk-high-reward moves on wake-up that lead to easy ultras.
Is that really so much to ask?
Also none of us said we wanted God-Tier Vega, we just want him to be usable in serious competition. And before you say anything, no you will not see any Vega win Evo or any other major 1 on 1 tourny with his current build.
The thing with ST as it is now, it doesn’t serve it’s purpose. With I-frames it can do this. It can serve as a reliable AA/wake-up move at the cost of 1 bar. Claw’s tools don’t work the way they are intended. He needs to be fixed. That’s why he isn’t good. His moves don’t work right.
-Sigh-
That was not what I was saying. I was saying with the right design, Vega can be god tier WITHOUT I frames. I frames are not the only fix to a problem.
And I didn’t read in the manual where it said ST was supposed to be a wakeup move. It’s not. That’s why you get punished for trying to use it as a wakeup. Make sense?
It’s a comboable special/armour breaker/early anti air. It’s good for these things. Use it for those and those alone. Even Psycho Crusher is a more useless move than Scarlet Terror.
I think you’re missing the point he’s making. He’s saying instead of fixing his problems by giving him I frames… buff what he does best right now.
Sure, but realistically they aren’t going to do that. What is realistic is this one small change that can impact his game in a larger way.
hey, i figured out how to use vega’s super yesterday in training
if you press the punch button really early in flight, vega has a window where if he comes into contact with someone he’ll grab them right away
but if the grab window isn’t fulfilled, the claws then come out, and if you’re in the air for long enough, the final claw swipe occurs for a 4 hit combo. i was messing around in training trying to beat gief’s lariats and it beats them 100% of the time (not the grab, but the claws do) it’s pretty cool. Looks disgusting too.
@ EmblemLord
ST serves its purpose fine. you can still beat tons of shit using it as a situational AA. this is a fact. on top of that, it’s an optimal combo ender for cosmic heel which in some matchups is a huge factor, considering the mixup potential after connecting. The fact that you can hit with 2 even if you only get 1 pretty much displays the notion that you’res upposed to throw it out early. (note I am not telling you you are wrong in saying EX ST needs invincibillity. i’m just saying.)
Also I believe you overestimate the importance of EX ST. Invincibility or not, Vega is still cross up bait on wakeup. All people have to do is initiate the mixup as soon as they land and Vega’s just as fucked as he normally was. If anything this will fix the Bison and Balrog ground-oriented style of rush in ticks and jabs / shorts but not matchups like Blanka, Chun Li, and Rufus. Which imo are way worse than Bison. You say ST doesn’t serve it’s purpose; I’m going to argue that if you’re playing the distance game, you always have the opportunity to react to an early jump in and throw it out as an AA, or air grab. it’s entirely feasible in a real match if you’re playing defense. the fact that it hits in such a huge arc as opposed to being most directly usable immediately after it’s startup is credence to Vega’s runaway game, as you’re again emphasizing long range counters as opposed to gritty in your-face combat like SRK’s and headbutt.
Its stupid that you guys are still in this argument. Either way one party will be wrong or right, so whats the point in getting all pissy about it? Just relax, i’m pretty sure this argument has been covered inside and out. I am heavily under the opinion that, either way, Vega could see changes to his game that could make him a serious contender. And besides, this isn’t even the worst of Vega’s worries. We need speed and pokes more than an invincible ST. Having that would lessen the imprtance of an EX ST greatly.
I think an EX RCF with some ridiculous start up of like 5 frames would be awesome. when the hell has anyone succesffuly countered a projectile for this? Tis move is utterly useless as even if you get through the projetcile and stack on some chip damage they can SRK you before the extended claw stab at the end. What bullshit is that? if it were faster you could rip roar through projectiles and do some good damage instead of always getting punished for using it. Also, if you had extra meter you could FADC and stack on a seriously damaging combo.
^
Must try this 4-hit super out. What’s the total damage on it?
I Frames on ST is the only fix I’m looking for, actually. Sure he needs more than that, but I’ve held my own plenty well against some great opponents, and I can tell you that I Frame EX-ST would solve pretty much all the problems I have with Vega.
What the ST is in SF4 really isnt the point. The point is that the sole reason it was even created in the first place was as a GTFO tool. Hell Guile has better AA normals than Vega, yet his Flashkick still has EX invulnerability. Should that go away just because he has good AA normals? Guile also has better offensive tools, and he’s mainly a defensive character. Does that make sense? No.
The fourth hit of the super comes out so late, you have to hit it amazingly high for the hit to actually come out. You will usually hit the ground after the first three hits because it takes so long. Pretty ridiculous. It does the same amount as the Izuna drop if you hit it cleanly.
Cool, I’ll check it out.
Vega is a different character in SF4 than he was in ST. Just because his scarlet terror carries the same name does not necessarily mean it serves the same purpose. As the character changes, so will the properties of his tool set. Take a look at T. Hawks’ condor spire. It used to be a forward hopping overhead chop move, but now it’s a horizontal condor dive. Not only has its mechanical properties altered drastically, but it’s even changed aesthetically into something totally different.