… hmm.
oh please those pokes seem so out of place. You have seen the stupid ass hit box for that game. Vega was top because he could take advantage of those hit boxes. They almost always seemed out of place because it looked like the move shouldn’t have even hit. But enough of that
Vega is not a run away character. I dont know where you guys come up with this, but he cant run away he does not have the tools to do that for the entire match. At one point or the other Vega has to get in to land real damage. And then stay in You cant win with pokes in this game because pokes no longer do that same stupid damage they did in ST 2.
If you played SF 4 Vega and you play against some one decent you’ll realize that df.hk is not that good of a move. It looks like a good move, but its gimmick. Sure it covers space and sets up some mix ups if you land the move, and then depending on what you do next, but using it as a poke is stupid because it leaves you right in front of the opponent where you are most vulnreable. and a smart opponent will take advantage of this because now he gots you where he wants you.
Everything does more damage in ST everything. there is no damage scaling in that game. Everything does the same set amount of damage in that game regardless of health. He had more damage output in that game because of how the engine ran.
How long did you play SF 4 Vega. Vega can lock down opponents in the corner. He has excellent pressure game. You just have to be more calculating, you can no longer do it like in SF 2. and constantly mixing it up with kara’s and deciding when is the right time to attack you can easily lock some one down because you can bait so much stuff.
Wall dive mix ups revolve around
- a knock down does not matter how you got it as long as the opponent is on the ground
- The space a wake up move controls(EX Chuns EX SBK) and if the opponent has meter(again character specific)
- if the opponent is standing, then in order for the wall dive to be an options you have to be spaced right from the wall. You just cant be next to the wall and the opponent on the other side and you go for the wall dive it will get stuffed because you wont jump high enough. You have to be far from the wall. to get a good angle to control the space below you.
- your ability steer and land an izuana, while reacting to what your opponent does when you wall dive, an. If he jumps straight up, whip up those claws the instant you see him jump/he likes to SRK simply dont attack fly over him as he SRK and punish with a knock down/FA learn to grab him out of it.
Let me ask you this
in ST could you grab Blanka out of electriciy? Because in SF 4 you can grab him out of it, showing how much unexplored potential that wall dive has.
I play my Vega as a run away character and have always done well. The only downside of running away is that at some point or another you’ll put yourself in the corner, which is why i’m trying to stay in the centre as opposed to run away now… but vega is better at running away then anyone else is. against Zangief and Abel you can get a T victory by staying out of reach. Against many characters you can. I’m not saying in every match you should win with a T, but it’s not something you shouldn’t think about. Running away with Vega is great becaues eventually you can wear the psyche of your opponent down and he makes more mistakes. Cosmic Heel is great for this, it comes out slow, yes, but if you’re reacting, you can punish whiffed special moves / low moves from afar, and you can always stay out of peoples reach in the air with jumping FK, strong, and fierce. Run away is obviously a very broad term but it applies to Vega’s key strength which is mobility. if you integrate straight up staying out of reach into your footsie game you can make progress
Ouroboros and Bentobox are right …
Guys what happened to you all?
From what i have read you guys want vega to be the same way, so when ssf4 finally comes up you will be able to brag all day long of how bad he actually is AGAIN!!!?!?!?
HE NEEDS TO CHANGE…
PERIOD!!!
please you have to understand that the game system is broken… it doesnt work for vega.
NO ULTRA
FREE RUSHDOWNS
NO “GET THE FUCK OUT” MOVE
are some of the things that really fuck him up…
HE NEEDS TO CHANGE!!!
by the way Ouroboros dont listen to pedoviejo, he just talks alot…
I have been trying to inject new life to the vega forum by proposing (in the past) new threads and the reorganization of old threads so new ideas would flow, but theres a lot of conformism and a wrong view of what vegas supposed to be played.
We cant be proud of using a handicapped character just because he is that bad and we can win “some matches” it doenst mean he should stay the same way… i fucking bet my head that ryu or sagat wont stay the same (for good or bad).
PLEASE! leave the conformism and try to see vega with new eyes… so we can agree in the changes that are needed
i thought about this and well let me ask you this. Have you played a super aggressive abel, I mean non stop pressure. Its hard to run away from him when his dash covers more distance than you can and he can apply pressure so well. Running away isnt very great play style in this game because momentum shifts in a instant IMO.
Vega’s key strenght is footsies not running away, at least IMO. Staying just outside the characters range, but close enough to poke/bait and punish moves a while setting up your mix ups/jump ins/offensive pressure, and all while running down the clock and the psyche of your opponent at the same time. That to me is a much more effecient use of time and his tools. If you bank your win on the clock its very risky because once you have life lead and run away its not guaranteed that it will stay this way. What happens when he catches up and lands heavy damage and he runs whats left of the clock down to the ground. Its easy to do it with Vega, but its easier to do it to him.
‘A wrong idea of how vega is supposed to be played?’ Ok, that’s why I’m 3rd in my city’s ranbats, and other Vegas are…?
Yep. I’m done. The guy who thinks neutral jump HK is a useless move definitely knows the ins and outs of Vega.
My point isn’t “KEEP VEGA SHITTY! I JUST LOVE IT!” I never fuckin said he wasn’t in need of a buff. It’s that they can give him a buff outside of giving ST invincibility. Not being able to get people off of you is not even the key problem. Dhalsim can’t get away from people easily but at least he can keep them out. Why can’t Vega do the same? (this is why I run away) It would fix just about every problem match up.
The system does work for Vega.
he has a great Ultra, just because its not comboable does not mean its useless. Learning to use FA gives you a way to land it, you can set it up, or punishing things with it.
rushdowns are not free. through all that rushing down the other guy is doing he is going to leave himself open allowing you to set up you offensive game whether its through your throw, ST, or EX FBA
Yes he doesnt have a get the fuck of me move. And he does need one, but he need to be speed up in general first.
edit: Yes he needs changes, but what changes are those. he doesnt need an over head he has great ticks. some moves start up should be speed but the recovery should stay the same. RCF or the speed at which Vega travels to the wall will benifit from the faster start up. but asking for safe FBA, or safe non EX SHC on block is asking to much. A faster jab, but keeping it a 1 link frame to prevent spamming. See where im getting at?
This might sound “snobby”, but I just don’t want to see Vega become the next over used character like you see with Ryu, or Sagat (at least online, I’m not a tourney player). But having said that, since I plan to use him no matter what they do, it would be great if he had more even match-ups instead of a lot of slightly (and a few very) disadvantageous ones.
If regular ST invincibility makes him OP (but I don’t think it would), at least EX ST should be usable as a GTFO move, beating anything short of an srk/tu/tk (which capcom will probably always give more priority to).
I also like Graph’s idea of the EX flip, but since he’s a ninja, they could make it a teleport move with the animation of him throwing down a smoke pellet and appearing at the other side of the screen - that would just be a cosmetic change, but I think it would look cool. The recovery could be similar to Bison’s teleport as long as it actually takes him all the way to what ever side you chose to teleport to (not right behind/in front like Bison’s or Seth’s, so more like Akuma’s).
And if they’re going to keep the claw toss in, turn it into a claw throw, make it the equivalent of a 3-hit fireball with the damage of a tiger shot - it can only be done once before picking it back up, so it should be worth it. Otherwise, at least give him invincibility during the tossing motion so it has some purpose besides an extra taunt.
The mask toss, if kept in, should definitely be more than a 10% damage boost, either make it 15-20%, or have it only take up 1 EX bar. Or a make it a throw equivalent to a 4 hit fireball with the damage of an EX tiger shot if its going to take 2 bars, but in exchange you don’t get a damage boost and still get lowered stamina (but only 50 less, not down to Seth level).
Trading the armor break from ST to RCF isn’t a bad idea either (if it makes the ST better for anti-air), but for that the RCF would have to move faster, especially the mp RCF which can be FA’d at the last part if timed right.
But I agree, there should be some risk to continually jumping in at Vega, or constantly trying to cross him up. He doesn’t need to have it easy, but the uphill climb to win with him doesn’t need to be as steep as it is in SF4.
you lack matchup experience
Vega’s ultra is useless in the vast majority of his match ups, and all things considered it does not do as much damage as you would expect for how difficult it is to land. It is already tough to land it against characters with fireballs that know the matchup; how do you land it against chars without one? In addition, having an ultra stocked does not necessarily turn things to Vega’s favor. Sagat, Akuma and Ryu can all pressure him equally well without using their fireballs.
and as far as a speed increase… Vega already has one of the fastest jumps, he has to be top 5 in terms of walking speed, his back dash is good, his forward dash sucks but it is not a big part of his game.
As far as the Abel matchup goes, there comes a certain point where you just have to run away for awhile to try and re-create a buffer zone because toe-to-toe, Vega gets beasted
Who the hell thinks Vega is a free rushdown. It’s damn hard to get in on a good Vega I tell you what.
[media=youtube]3PU3oNeIsjA[/media]
This is a good representation of why Vega needs a good “get the fuck off me” move. No disrespect, because I’ve seen your other videos and know you’re a solid player, which makes this point more valid. Any solid player rushing Vega will have their way no matter how good the Vega player is. A good example is the Abel match. After a cross up j. mk Vega is very limited in what he can do. This video shows that no matter what option you go for, you’re still at an extremely high risk.
[media=youtube]UCK7fXZDiAc[/media]
Here’s a japanese Vega getting walked all over by Sagat, who isn’t even a rush character, but had the guy locked down for all the matches. Even though the sagat messed up on his links a few times, the Vega still remained under pressure, because he didn’t have a solid way of punishing him.
Anyway, I could post video after video, because almost any top player Vega gets destroyed for free, but you guys just want a bottom tier Vega just so you can be unique or whatever ridiculous reasoning you have for it. I’ve been using him since ST and have played him pretty much exclusively in every game since then and never has he been this terrible. He’s actually top tier in every game that Ive played as him in.
CVS2 he was 5th.
He was top 5 in Super Turbo.
He was top 5 in alpha 3.
He was top 5 in HDR.
What’s wrong with having this kind of Vega? He’s been good in every game and still avoided being overused. Who’s to say this can’t be the case in ssIV? If you guys just like being unique and don’t want to see other people playing Vega, then stick to your casual play. However, I want to be serious about mine and would like to see Vega being viable for tournament play. Can you guys tell me how many Vega’s were at evo this year?
I gotta admit, it would be great to see someone like Tatsu who is really good with Vega, be able to take him to the top at a tournament like EVO. Or Reiketsu, or Makoto. Its sad when you see that they did very little wrong, but that one mistake cost them so much because they were up against Balrog, or Ryu, or Blanka, etc.
Here’s another buff suggestion. Give Vega’s air throw the biggest range, even more than Guile’s. I know Guile also got shafted a bit in SF4 compared to previous games, this would really only affect his match-up with Vega, which I think is currently in his favor anyway.
Plus, if Guile’s flash kick gets buffed, and with his SB recovery, Vega needs the better air throw.
Vega is a free rushdown. I am sort of sad that this turned into a debate about whether he needs to have a reliable wake-up move, but if it helps get the point across to people, I guess it will be worth it.
DHEvil, the reason Vega is a free rushdown is that it is 100% safe to jump in on him after a knock down with a meaty attack. From there, feel free to go into a safe, or unsafe block strings (they are all the same to Vega as he has no invulnerable moves to punish gaps) or land a hit, and do it all over again.
This needs to get fixed. That is why ST needs the same invinciblity it has always had, if not more.
Well, yeah, he is sort of free AFTER he gets knocked down, but it can be really tricky to get that knockdown in the first place, since some of Vegas’ normals are so good at keeping people out. All it takes is one teched throw in the middle of the ensuing rushdown and you’re back in business.
Relying on a throw tech (assuming your opponent goes for one, and you tech it) is not a viable defensive option. Vega does not have a good defense against people jumping in on him for free and landing safe and unsafe block strings/combos/chipping/putting him in the corner and building meter, because he can tech throws. All characters in the game can tech throws, so if that were the case, there would be no anti-airs. But I do realize your point, as right now, that is one of Vega’s only escapes from strong pressure.
I don’t believe it is much trickier to get a knockdown on Vega than it is on any other character. The fact is that there will hardly be a match where either character is not knocked down at some point.
Aren’t you the guy who said Vega was top-tier?
No I said he was lower mid, i.e. above Sakura. MY Vega is top tier though.
Back on topic:
If backflips were made just abit better, Vega would instantly become a lot more competitive. They might be nigh useless in the corner but if you can’t get in/rush him down reliably on a knockdown, it’s gonna be alot harder to push him there.
After that make his cr.jabs both combo and link into each other, same as Ryus’. Mmmmm delicious.
Honestly Vegas’ weaknesses are just little things that are consistently exploited. Probably these two changes would be more or less enough.
EDIT EDIT:
The thing is Capcom is probably gonna go beyond this and buff Vega like hell. I see him ending up upper mid, easy.
yes i do lack match up experience, but what am i going to do when Ryu/Akuma/Sagat deciede to turtle against me? Run away. Or what about a Zangief thats contempt with landing one st.mp and then backs off. Come on I think about these things. If you rely on running away you may get far, but how far will his tools allow for full fledged running?
you land it through tap FA. I land those often and i dont go fishing for those much neither. you can also land it on wake up if you can bait a move. Its hard, but at least its a viable option. And not as bad as you think.
Vega should be #1 in terms of walking speed and attack. He is the speed character in the SF games it would make sense.
And that buffer zone you have to create? Vega has to create one with every character in the game. And by wanting to create that buffer zone arent you essentially positioning yourself in a advantageous position against the opposing character? Because that is what footsies do put you in favorable position. So technically you dont have to run away to re-create this buffer zone, you back of and start zoning him with pokes to try and reset the positioning and situation back in a nuetral state to the best of your abilities.
Wow i cant believe you guys are actually arguing against invincibility for ST when Vega’s main problem is getting rushed the fuck down. Everything else about him is decent. Invincibility on ST isnt automatically gonna make him GOD tier. It’s just gonna move up his ranks to upper mid, nothing wrong with that.