and who the fuck are you? you dumb piece of shit. you seriously want to make ssf4 vega like hf vega? what have you been smoking? hf is just as bad as sf4 vega. easily the 2nd worst character in the game. you’re just another 2009 retard, that have no idea what you’re talking about.
(sorry if i offend any 2009 member that doesn’t talk out of their ass.)
lol most of this thread is a fukin joke…im surprised sask and jozhear are even wasting ther time in here!
No offense taken! :tup:
Just about every character almost has some form of invincibility on a move, be it standard or EX. Its not even fair that Vega is the one that has to deal with being the one with invincibility except his Flips which leave his ass entirely open he might as well be fucked from behind. I generally have even matches against Bison til they figure out his EX Psycho Crusher has invincibility so can’t do shit when they have meter on wakeup.
Hell, Vega ain’t got shit to do on wake-up or any reliable way to get his ass out of a corner. He got shafted entirely in SFIV and they probably made this game thinking “Oh he’s balanced cause his flips are invincible.” That itself was total shit and I’m not even gonna get into why they decided to Co-develop this game with Dimps and they only have their mediocre DBZ Fighter Series to speak of for a fighter. Who’s fucking idea was that in the first place? They should be fired.
I’m not even gonna joke that there are tons of people who have not touched vega and probably wont but if they ever did for just a few hours they’ll figure out just how disadvantaged he is compared to majority of the roster. Sure he has reach but its not really that great. Even Sagat has reach but the fuck Sagat aint got but a command throw? Just fix my god damn Vega cause bitch is broken and not for the better.
Am I wierd for liking Vega the way he is? :’(
Sasaki has made a lot of contributions to the SFIV Vega thread, including a re-organizing match-up thread, and providing advice of his own. He’s also posted a video tutorial for landing the dfHK–>ST (on a X-Box 360 pad no less). Basically, he’s done a lot to help out us SF4 Vega players, which I think anyone who checked out the character thread once in a while would know.
I’m not going to claim to be a great, or even good Vega, but it seems like a lot of you had given up on him in SF4 and don’t even really play him. The requests from the people still using him in the current game seem pretty sound to me.
why do you want him top tier? I seriously dont get most of you people. I bet most of you that say give him this and make him top tier and then complain about Seth or Sagat about being OP. If you guys got what you wanted Vega would be a fucking boring broken piece of shit. Sagat has always been in top 3 tier, and Boss characters have always been top tier as well. Stop crying and learn to play with what you got. Capcom isnt going to give Vega invul frames to Vega just because most of you guys complain. In fact most of you dont know about game balance. And how does adding invul frames make Vega better? Oh wow i got invul frames woho now i can play Vega like a fucking flow chart Ken. ST on wake up every time. His problems stem from fundemental flaws. Invul frames/lack of overhead/comboable Ultra/FADC canels are not the problem. His lack of speed is and his wierd hit box on normals are the problem. He has great AA if you know how to use them, can combo into ultra well if you know how to use FA/+ has a good Ultra, has a good FA, a great backdash, jumping in for free? That shit aint free if you know how ST works, or if you jump straight up and HK or air grab.
whatever though keep adding your ridiculous complains. Capcom already knows what the problem is and i and every Vega mainer that’s mained him since day one knows and realized that invul frames is not the problem with Vega.
I don’t want to see him become top tier and get over used online like Ryu, Sagat, Ken, etc., but just wanted to point out that Vega is a boss character. Or at least he used to be in SF2. He was after Balrog and before Sagat, so if anything if you go by that order, he should be 3rd strongest in the game, even though Seth is the new boss and they have the “fight your rival” thing now, which may or may not make sense based on your character.
It’s funny that some people can’t wake up with Vega, sure you don’t have the options of just block or throw or invincible move, but u got other things up ur sleeve. Sure its not as easy as some people, but then again, I’ve seen someone who just mind fucks a sagat ad gets 4 throws off wake up… its all about mixing it up, once u mixed them up, maybe do something else, or do it again, or so that other thing which you’ve not done all match…
there we go. Blocking is always an option especially when you can tech throws.
some of you idiots still dont get it. flip kick needs to be improved period. either balance it out by keeping it the way it is now but adding more a lot more invincibility frames (shoto dp) or give it faster startup and priority with frames of active hit invincibility (viper hp knuckle). that current flip kick loses to everything.
every damn character in the game have some sort of “get the fuck off of me” move. what does vega have that keeps the opponent from going pringles on him? a shitty backhop that does little to nothing most of the time. in fact, its a liability in most matches.
having his flip kick does not get him out of jail for free. you get that shit telegraphed, your ass is grass. this is not rocket science here. (of course flowchart kens and ryu scrubs still havent figure this out yet) no it shouldn’t be FADCable. make it non FADCable like balrogs headbutt.
ask for people asking why do you want to make vega good, are you fuckin serious? do you seriously want to leave him like hes in his current sad state so it’ll only appeal to a select few here? i dunno how the fuck would buffs that will make vega more viable make him broken and boring.
what do you want me to do? hand him a cookie? good for him for organizing shit. still give him no right for running his mouth. as i’ve said before in other posts, just because a handful of you play him faithfully since day 1 does not make you an expert on him. most of us have been using vega for years and knows what to expect and what not to expect of him.
sorry i cant help my self.
what do you expect out of him really. Do you think that giving him invul frames will fix him. That it will make him viable in a tourney? All those “years” you have played him lead you to belive that ST should have invul frames period. When this incarnation of Vega is missing the core aspect that made him good in all the other games he was in? His speed. We should want to fix the **“core fundermental” ** aspects of what makes Vega a good character. Not crying about not having invul frames on move X when that wont fix him alone. Characters like Blanka, Fuerte, Guile, Rose, Sakura have invul frames and they arent good according to tier list’s.
Say you give Vega speed up + invul frames on move X then Capcom is going to have to buff other characters with more moves and nerf certain aspects
One more thing. How is he a “current sad state”? As far as im concerned he has more attack options, damage output, stun out put, mix ups; then he ever had. Vega in SFST2.
fast, Ticks, Wall dive trap, Taking advantage of stupid hit boxes, pokes. thats all it took back then not any more with this engine. FA stops unthoughtfull pokes, techs stop stupid ticks, strict timing stops wall dive traps.
here let me explain the draw backs of your suggestions
overall
-speed needs to be increased at least 1.5x (good thats what we need, but certian moves need to keep the same recovery rate that they have, to prevent spamming)
-make his mask and claw harder to come off (I dont know about this one i made my peace with this)
-damage boost (NO, he already does enough damage and Vega was never about landing heavy damage)
-faster and shorter dash(sure why not if you decrease distance in X axis then its bound to be shorter)
normals
-c.hp needs to have a better hit box for anti air(no that move works to stuff jump attempts or jump back on wake up)
-c.mk at least 2 frames faster(why you already have cr.mp if Ryu’s cr.mk is stuffing your cr.mp learn to throw a move with thought.)
-get rid of neutral jumping hp and hk(why the space they control is simply to good. n.hk controls the space all around him.)
-make slide safer on block(NO. If you make this safer then you have to make everyones elses safer and that will make dhalsim and rose’s slide stupid.)
-either get rid of d/f mk or make it an overhead(im fine with it dont really care about it)
-close hp comes out much faster(??? i dont know???)
specials
-wall dive is easier to steer, breaks focus attack, safer on block(its already easy to steer. if it was safer and breaks focus attack it would become OP spammable. That move has always been a risky move.)
-claw thrust bounces back further thus make it safer on block AND hit(Safer on hit sure im fine with that. Safe on Block? its always has been punishable on block.)
-claw roll charge time shortened to normal charge time(this would fix any thing it wouldn’t make anything better.)
-claw roll starts up much faster (sure more combo more meter, more stun. But keep the recovery the same no need for spamming that shit in the corner)
-backlash/short backlash is twice as fast(why? if you get invul frames on ST why would you want this.)
-ppp backlash hops back more distance(why? if you get invul frames on ST why would you want this.)
-flip kick has a lot more invincibility (No. Why do you want it. It wouldn’t make it better. i would rather have a better backlash than invul frames on this move)
-ex flip kick completely invulnerable(Hahahahahaha. Please thats asking to much.)
-super gets a damage boost and doesn’t come out unless it grabs(i really dont care about this really.)
-red impact super?
-ultra needs to have faster start up, more bounce back and make it comboable(Its fine as it is. Its has pleanty of set ups it is comboable learn to FA xx Ultra, and its a sick punisher, it punishes even normals. No need for it improvement. If it is improved might as well just get a new one.)
You asked who he was, I informed you. Nothing more to it.
I’m not claiming to be an expert, but I think people who have put a lot of time into the SF4 version, in addition to his previous incarnations would have a better idea of what should be done for SSF4.
I’ve only played him in SSF2T, and SF4. I can’t remember if he was in Alpha2, but if so, I don’t think I played that one much anyway. And I know a lot of his specials are gimped compared to SSF2T, but he also didn’t have the EX FBA back then, which is a nice addition.
The item drop moves should be very fast, and maybe able to hit the opponent. That way when you are rushing somebody down and trying to finish off their last bit of health, you can cancel an attack into item toss to do a fast mixup. This will tie into a new, darker, grittier, edgier, more serious, more hardcore theme with the game where people are throwing aside their honor and dignity all for the sake of victory.
no
There are a select few who have studied and gotten great with Vega like Sas and I and then there are others who think that invincibility is really that important
like I said. give him a more threatening zoning game and a lack of invincibility on moves wouldn’t be a big problem at all. seems to me like a fair trade off if Vega has great offensive game and runaway game, then a pretty good zoning game, if he has trouble dealing with CQC in which he has no momentum. that playstyle is very appealing to me. Giving ST invinc would change Vega’s gameplay alot as there’s no way they’d make it so you could still corpsehop people after a reversal ST. that would be OP. so… keep moving in this direction and give him a buff that would make him competitive OUTSIDE of invincibility, as that buff definitely exists
no harm in being creative
Did it ever occur to you that someone with a fresh approach to SF could get a better idea of how an independent character in an independent installment of the street fighter franchise works as opposed to someone who reverts to a ST frame of mind in a game that is not ST? Think about what you say to 2009ers, and about Scarlet Terror, because you think it needs to be ‘buffed’. It’s one of Vega’s strongest move… watch ANY japanese vega play and you just might notice that about 25-50% of every damage he does is from ST set ups. If they gave it invincibility they’d have to change it’s offensive properties which is a more negative trade in the long run. It’s not THAT hard to get away from people who are up in your grill. Unless they have a command throw.
I don’t understand what the huge downfall is of a character not having a “get the fuck off me move”. ST still beats plenty of pokes, not to mention a mix up with air grab makes it a perfectly viable AA (either air grab the jump in or AA the air to air meaty). Vega also has a great back dash, jump out fierce, a fast jump, (against some anticipated moves a KKK flip is safe; the flips are used for creating space. jump in, close fierce, crouching strong, cancel into PPP flip, you’re back at full screen and most people can’t chase you down before the recovery). The only characters who can readily exploit the fact that Vega has nothing to do to get away are Zangief, Abel, Honda, arguably Chun, Cammy… there’s not really much else. Against basically everybody, if you block low, you can react to everybody’s overhead (except for Abel, it’s physically impossible) and stand up animations for tick throws. Balrog and Chun give you hell because they can do the walk up, crouch jab lock down, and against Zangief, you need to guess right to get away in most cases, as with Honda. Vega has enough tools to keep Balrog, Fei Long, Rufus (7-3 matchup my ass), and others from making matches impossible for him.
fair enough. i’ve put enough hours in him in sf4, and st, and hdr, and cvs2 to have a grasp on what needs to be improved.
i don’t believe i’ve said anything that makes him game breaking.
did i say that having a flip kick with invincible frames will solve everything? no i didn’t so stop putting words into my mouth.
what i said specifically was that having invincibility frames on his flip kick will stop certain characters from going pringles on him.
Say you give Vega speed up + invul frames on move X then Capcom is going to have to buff other characters with more moves and nerf certain aspects
okay, either you’ve never played ST or you have no idea what you’re talking about here.
and did it ever occur to you that sf4 was a throwback to the sf2 series? dunno why you’re comparing the damage output from st to sf4. bisons scissor kick combo took like about a 40% of your life. how much damage does it do in sf4? didly squat.
congratulations, you just proved my point for naming that many characters. and you’re totally forgetting the risk reward factor and battle of attrition vs balrog, blanka and bison.
Lets see more of these posts. The fact that people are actually talking seriously about leaving him the way he is so they can feel good about being the minority is shameful. If you want to do that, play the next low tier in the game. Get out of the Vega improvement thread.
On the other hand, I think a lot of the people talking about all the buffs he needs don’t realize a lot of his real strengths. Wall dive does not need to break armor, and it is reasonably controllable. EX Wall dive breaks armor, and Izuna drop is VERY landable and reliable if you know how to do it. Abusably reliable even.
ST needs invincibility. Beyond just jump ins, it needs it to break what are right now, completely safe and dominating block strings (like sagats low short > tiger-knee strings, which Vega really has no reliable options for).
Vega is much stronger than a lot of people realize. But to say things like “He is a runaway character,” is completely wrong. You cannot runaway and consistently win in this game. Runaway relies on your opponents lack of skill to win, not your own. To say runaway is a viable option is to assume you will always have the life lead, or your opponent will be stupid enough to chase you. You won’t and they won’t. That is why “runaway” is not an actual playstyle. It is a strategy, only to be used at the end of the match, or in extreme match-ups, like Viper vs Zangief.
Vega is not a runaway character.
Blocking is the ONLY option. If an opponent knows all you can do is block and then you have to predict their mix-up/tech their throw, they are getting huge rewards (safe meter/huge damage/chipping/pressuring you/taking away all of your options for free/putting you in the corner) and it is very easily repeatable.
All character need a viable wake-up. It is not breaking Vega to give him one. It is something basic he is lacking, and it doesn’t define his style in any unique or special way.
the wall dive FA attack breaking properties would make that move broken, that plus a faster recovery. ST is good enough for focus breaker
i apologize if you took it that way. I responded that way because your previous post sounded as if that was the main problem and that should be fixed as priority one.
thats nice but there are plenty of tools to stop the pringles. It would help in a lot of match ups, but i still think there are other ways to do it. Whether he gets it or not is not up to me, and wont care but you do realize that if invul frames is given corpse hop shenanigans are gonna be taken out or changed for the worse (who know and maybe they stay the same).
yes i have. My game consisted of ticks, sweeps, wall dive traps, and annoygly high damaging pokes. Look at all the top video’s they all consist of ticks, wall dive traps, and pokes that seem out of place. He did not have df.hk mix up possibily, ST mix up, nor crossovers, his mix up game consisted of wall dives and that’s it. Oh and tell me what are his attack options in that game other than what i just listed?
To brentobox
wheater they give it to him or not is something we all will deal with it. I made my peace with it and i dont care any more if he gets it or not. Its one more tool to win with. But Im not saying it will break him, the wall dive change if implemented will. And it sounds more logical to have a move like that because dealing with mix ups is simple, but dealing with ambiguous mix ups like akuma/gouken demon flips, blanka’s Ultra, stupid block strings, etc will go a long way to ease the pain of losing 300 point of health because i blocked. And I dont get this satisfaction of ohh i won with Vega, I play with him because i like the character and what he has to offer. in fact I always question the win when i win.
I also understand your point and argument, but the problem is that its coming of as if that is that alone will fix the fundamental problems with Vega. And the more i think about it the better it sounds, but if they speed him up along with some specials (faster startup on wall moves, RCF, backlash, certian normals) im fine with him not having it. If not then well that sucks but at least i got one extra tool and thats all i need.
To general audience
As it stands some he needs no over head he has beastly ticks (kara throws) they deal more damage and dont leave you at a 50/50. and a lot of your guys problems for faster x or better x will and should be fixed if he is improved in the speed department.
heres a few things i’ll change around
-flip kick does not break armor.
one of the reasons why i think his command anti air sucks so much compared to other characters is because it breaks armor. same reason why guiles flash kick is not so hot in sf4.
-claw roll breaks armor now.
-sweep does not knock down at max range
this is a throwback to alpha 3, which behaves similarly. he’ll lose the knockdown from afar, but anything closer, it still knocks down.
if they made his slide more safer and faster like his old incarnations, it’ll still be a good offensive weapon despite the fact that it does not knock down from max range.
this is exactly how i feel. people that plays shitty characters just because they are low tier are attention whores.
i know he has some strengths and it doesn’t take much to make him good again. just little improvements here and there since everything he had before was gimped.
as for his wall dive, it doesn’t matter too much if they improve it or not. its not in the list of top priorities to buff him. it was never really any good except in ST/HDR. the steering in sf4 feels really funky compared to bisons devil reverse.
i’ve suggested an armor break because theres too many ways to avoid getting hit by the dive already and even if they fail to see it coming a mile away and stuff it, or block and punish it, they can just focus it. all other similar moves have some sort of armor break (akuma and goukens demon flips, gens dive kick) so it only made sense if his breaks armor too
way to generalize ST. by your logic, all sf4 vega matches involve running away and d/f+hk shennanigans. pokes that seem out of place? that certainly shows you have no idea what you’re talking about. everything looks out of place to the untrained eye
the ONLY two things sf4 vega has over st vega is the d/f+hk and ex wall dive. the so called “annoyingly high damage pokes” and sweeps you’ve mentioned just proves he can attack better in st. you can’t even use his slide offensively in sf4 or lock down opponents with his claw normals in sf4. st vega can be played in 3 ways (claw barrage lockdown, wall dive mixups, turtling/runaway). sf4 vega can be played in one way and he sucks at that (turtling/runaway).
dunno why is everyone comparing damage output in st to sf4. everything did damage in st even though he does below the average character in st also.
also dunno why are you comparing stun potential either since he certainly does not excel at that in sf4. but if you want to talk about stun potential, he has that in st also.
wall dive mixups in st is better than anything he has in sf4 which usually revolves around d/f hk.
Hey guys. Don’t yell at me or anything, because I’m feeling high tension here! Okay! So here it goes! Ready? I haven’t seen this mentioned before but what if Vega got some meter from doing his back flips like in ST? I don’t know if that would really do much for him, but it’s something. His back flips are listed as special moves after all.