1201

@Kei_Kun: Take away Ryu, Ken and Viper from that list, and I’d agree. But 2 out of 3 of those characters naturally rely on okizeme and own almost every character once they get into that position, especially because they - like Joz said, have command throws. The other one is the character being simply braindead in this matchup, I agree. But your point is made quite clear: Vega’s mask loss IS a problem. If he wouldn’t have that, he’d have more chances to get out. And if he had said EX Flips, he’d have enough options IMO, of course only if he is buffed in several other departments that prevent that (easy) knockdown in the first place.
Yes, 30% of health. Now imagine your opponent has to catch you again, but you have great tools at your disposal to make it really really hard for him to catch you. 30 doesn’t sound that much anymore, does it?

1202

You really didn’t, and if you did, it was bad wording. You bascially said “AA specials” and as far as I’m concerned EX SRK is an AA special.

Don’t get stuck in the corner? Oh wow, now it will never ever possibly happen again! Thanks! You say you shouldn’t get stuck in the corner, yet you support giving his backflip faster frames, leading him there even quicker. Sure you could always flip off the wall to the other side, but that won’t stop any opponent with common sense to jump striaght up and smack you out of it.

And an I-Frame ultra is going to save him? Doubtful. How many times do you see people doing wake-up ultras in the corner in high level play? They don’t because they have better options. Since Vega DOESN’T have better options, it’ll be even more predictable.

One more thing, you won’t even get the ultra until you’re already getting your face bashed in. So basically there’s only one time in a match where Vega has any answer for corner pressure, and guess what, it will be easily predictable.

Now please tell me how those are not good points?

1203

Ugghhhhh you are so stupid.

1204

Either way you are not killing Ryu’s momentum and Ryu has no reason not to try to OS you.

Ryu doesn’t have to respect you and sooner or later he will push you into the corner and Claw gets sodomized.

1205

Ryu/Ken maybe that was harsh of me but I will not omit Viper from that list ever. Her stun kills Claw like crazy when you can’t get out of her annoying cancels. Remember, .no 3 frame jabs or a proper reversal. 2 poke and 2 full strings is stun for him in rapid sucession and its not a unrealistic scenario.

Catching Claw CAN be hard but its 100x harder on Claw’s end to defend opposed to people rushing. Sure its fun keeping away for one or two games but it gets damn exhausting to the brain after say…10. And you are assuming Claw got first dibs on the opponent which is not very likely to happen (but does sometimes).

1206

Yeah if the Vega is doing nothing but walking back sure that’s gonna happen.

1207

What? I always thought that back flipping myself into a corner was the best way to play Vega! Teach me DHEvil.

1208

Why is this so hard to understand? Please, I’m having a hard time understanding why it’s so difficult for you to realise that escaping pressure = good.

Back flip, recover quickly, both of you are even. Why. Why is this hard to understand.

I am now fully convinced that half the people posting in this thread are just willingly, stubbornly idiotic.

1209

Because what did you accomplish? Ryu risked nothing and worse case scenario you are even? Yeah, man that’s some scary shit. That’s really gonna make a nigga not wanna attempt to fuck your shit up on wake-up. And if Ryu just went for a cross-up you are fucked no matter what option you choose besides block.

1210

THEN FUCKING BLOCK.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

1211

Look, you know, I don’t even care who wins this discussion about i-frames on scarlet terror.

I just want Claw to be better. Period. End of story.

I don’t care if they give him a fucking lariat. Just make him better.

Fact: He is one of the worst in the game.
Fact: There is a lot of annoying bull-shit games in IV that can spammed on Claw with no fear WHILE those same annoying bull-shit games would get you raped with a sideways broomstick if you tried it on other characters.

At the end of the day, I just want him to be better.

That’s all I want.

1212

And be subjected to frame traps and mix-ups that Claw has very little ways to deal with AND lose your equipment. Yup. Good stuff.

Fucking amazing.

1213

The issue here is that every suggestion you’re making is common sense shit that every character is capable of.

Solution to not having options in the corner? Don’t get in the corner.

Solution to not having any option to discourage pressure on wakeup? Just block every time

These are not solutions to Vega’s problems. You’re looking at it like “Well I’m able to get out of these situations most of the time so its not that big of deal.” All that means is that you’ve learned to work around Vega’s weaknesses and you’re probably better than whomever you’re playing in these scenarios.

It doesn’t change the fact that every other character in the game can do the exact same thing (play smart, block on wakeup, don’t get in the corner), but they have better options in those situations and for avoiding those situations in the first place (not to mention that no other character has the penalty for simply blocking and playing good defense that Vega gets due to mask/claw loss.) And Vega not having these options is exactly what makes him a weak character. This is why I call you a masochist because, whether you realize it or not, being so vehemently against Vega getting equal useful options w/ the rest of the roster just means that you want him to remain bottom tier.

1214

DHEvil is just a moron guys, don’t get too caught up in it. He couldn’t even respond to the good points I made, or at least attempt to tell me how they weren’t good points. He just decides to say that anyone who disagrees with him on this subject is stupid and has no idea what they’re talking about. Excellent rebuttal eh?

Refer to Prof21’s post to see how your argument holds no ground.

1215

I’ve been saying this for so long… FLIPS are something that are VEGAs and help him play like vega not another shoto. I’ve been saying forever that making his flips better and even being able to EX them would allow him to get out of crappy situations w/o making him broken or turning him into ryu #5.

Also I’ve mentioned giving him forward flips so he can get out of the corner. He is a hit and run character. He needs to get in and get out quickly. Making his flips useful, even at the cost of EX meter, would be a great fix for him and his style of play.

NO one pays attention though. everyone keeps talking about making ST invulnerable. It’s fucking retarded. You people have no fucking imagination.

1216

god you’re dense. “making flips better” means that they wouldn’t be punished. *** If they still got punished then they wouldn’t be better would they? They’d be the same. ***

Let it sink in man. in fact let me spell it out… He needs a getaway move that is SAFE!!! I don’t care if it costs meter to do. I’d be happy with that.

ok, now is when people ignore the post and keep talking about invulnerable STs and how godlike they are. but before that don’t forget to leave a comment telling me that I’m wrong but with little to no reasons.

1217

I’m with prof. If you can predict a crossup or meaty every single time, you should be able to do something about it to make the opponent know that he’s being predictable.

The problem is, you can’t. Even though you know what’s coming up, you still have to sit there and play his little game until HE decides to let you go/messes up. And it’s not like he’s doing any special mind game or setup that requires a lot of work. \

I udnerstand how Vega works and how he should be played; I’ve been here and using Vega since the later days of arcade release. But all it takes is one lucky sweep or shoryu, and suddenly you’re at a huge uphill battle against the worst of the worst Ken players.

Plus you guys are overreacting and acting like it’s autofire. Shoryuken isn’t even autofire, it’s easily punishable if it’s smelt. Scarlet Terror is even LESS autofire. You have to make sure it’s charged, and then you have to release it at the right time. If you don’t do it at the right time, you lose the charge and your chance to break out until you charge another one.

-edit-
Graphf’s idea of making flips better is not bad either. As it stands, they’re extremely unsafe and can be punished in almost any circumstance. But if they’re made better, then by all means, leave out EX Scarlet Terror.

1218

I am going to have to agree with this post to a degree. I don’t like to discount people opinions, claiming superiority, but a lot of the discussion in the thread about the way Vega is supposed to be played, versus the way the game is supposed to be played shows a lack of consideration for how high level play functions.

Joz, I believe you are a great Vega player, and I am not trying to cherry pick apart your arguements, but this arguement in particular seems to say a lot about the general idea for not having invinciblity. You are arguing that with Vega’s playstyle, you need to play 100% safe, but the fact of the matter is that against top players, even those using top tier characters, everyone is already playing 100% safe. Against top players who are actively and effectively reading and adapting to your strategies, while at the same time playing in a 100% safe style, a strong one-dimensional game of poke and runaway will eventually (and likely very quickly) be broken down and dominated.

It is your opponnent that should force you to play 100% safe, not your character. When two top players are both playing 100% safe (meaning not just defense, but making smart choices, effectively reading, and not making poor decisions or taking unneccesary risks and gambles (which poke and mix up tactics rely on heavily to win)) the disparities between the characters strengths and options begin to shine through. To put it simply, you will not punish John Choi to death or force him to make enough mistakes to win in a 3 out of 5 match.

A lot of players inability to recognize the fact that playing 100% safe is already part of playing at top level, and to characterize it as a trait unique to Vega, that he can use to be competitive, is where the claims of inexperience and naivity come from.

Dhalsim is a poke and runaway character. He has a fireball, and projectile attacks that allow him to create pressure from across the screen, and the tools to keep the opponents there, because that is where he wants them.

Vega has no such thing. In almost the exact opposite fashion, all of Vega’s tools hurl him closer to the opponent. He relies on proximity.

1219

You, know, Prof, I get what DHEvil and those in his camp are saying.

Claw being a bitch on wake-up won’t make him low tier if he is fucking hard to knock down… so fucking hard to knock down that you die trying approximately half the time.

But that just isn’t SFIV Claw. He’s a bitch on wakeup and he’s really not that hard to knock down when you consider his all-around ass recovery on FBAs, SHC, Sweep, etc.

DHEvil,

I guess the reason why you haven’t got me convinced is because better flips and a little speed here and there aren’t enough. If Claw is to remain a bitch on wake-up, in order for balance, he needs to be Dhalsim-like hard to get in on, OR be a very heavy hitter with better/safer offensive options so you don’t get many chances.

I just don’t see it likely that Capcom will buff him to that level in either of those areas.

And as for i-frames being ‘stale’, you have a valid point sir, but I also find being subjected to endless jab short crossover throw attempt jab short crossover repeat a bit ‘stale’.

When I compare the two, I find i-frames like the other 24 cast members ‘less stale.’

Foutskazuya,

Don’t call DHevil a moron. He’s a nice guy, and is probably a better Claw than you.

1220

Yeah I definitely don’t see Capcom putting in enough effort to improve Vega in all the other areas that would warrant not giving him invincible frames on EX ST. For one it’d be a lot more work and trial and error testing, it’d be an overall larger change to the character which I don’t think the devs want to do, and it’d also be much more of a slippery slope between making him good enough at avoiding getting pinned down but not got too good. Whereas invincibility on EX ST is a quick fix, its simple, it makes sense. Yes, it wouldn’t be as unique a design choice as the other route, but again, the other route isn’t very likely and I’m trying to pose some realistic options for improvement here. Not to mention the fact that, again, Vega hasn’t always been some runaway, Dhalsim-lite character that is hard to pin down and then gets raped when he is. I don’t even think he was conceived that way in SF4 to be honest, because he doesn’t really have great tools to play that style either. Its more a case of that being the most effective way of playing Vega in SF4 because he’s pretty much unfinished.

ps lol at the ongoing comments that invincibility frames on EX ST would somehow make Vega a Ryu clone. :lol: One of the more ridiculous arguments that I’m amazed people are repeating.