Respect Jozhear. He’s a really good Vega and one of the few great players here who is not a total dickhead to us newer players. He also ranks up there with one of the most helpful on the entire SRK boards. Calling him an 09’er retard is way off base.
I hate to defend Jozhear then immediately disagree with him after it, but I’m in the camp that thinks making ST with i-frames could no where near break him.
In fact, if you gave Vega a true block string, a cross-up, an overhead, i-frames on ST, and made ST FADC into Ultra , he STILL would not be #1 on the tier list. Still probably not in the top 5.
Look, I know that if you’re really good at using Vega he’s not a ‘terrible’ character and can win consistently, but when you take his slow frame data, no comeback ability, low damage output, not-so-great- combo ability, and general hit-boxes on his moves making them terribly low priority, he is easily in the bottom two characters of this game.
There is nothing wrong wanting Vega to be better, even if it changes his ‘flavour’. His flavour has already changed, from what I read from those who have played past SF games. His slide used to be potent, now it’s just plain ass.
Who can’t focus that thing on reaction? You can grab it like 6-7 frames after it starts up. It’s negative a million on block.
And yet I know I’m going to have to keep saying this. There are 24 other characters in this game that have invul frames out the wazoo. Vega doesn’t need to be like them. Why homogenize him when you can fix him in unique ways that we all know will work AND preserve his playstyle in SSF4, which is fun, which is why we play him in the first place?
My main is Dhalsim, but I played some Vega, and I understand what DHEvil means, and I agree with him. I understand Vega as keep away character, that relies on footsies to win. People says ST Vega had a true reversal on Scarlet Terror, but he was a stupid turtler in that game. He could beat some characters holding down back and doing just one move in auto-pilot. It was not broken, but was plain stupid. I dont want that Vega in this game.
If Vega get really good pokes, and a little more speed, he will be a good character, and a fun character too. And If Capcom does give him invicible ST (or EX), maybe Vega will not gain the other tools he needs to be better at what he is good now.
I think Capcom needs to improve Vega’s footsies and offense, giving him faster pokes, faster walk speed, and safer special moves. Maybe ONE option to get out of jail, but not a very good option, like ST. I think some invincibility to Ultra 1, as was mentioned above is a good idea.
Ultra 1 does have invincibility in SSF4. Which is great. And it’s enough in terms of an invincible reversal attack. We will get ultra 1 more often than Dhalsim gets his super, which is what most people here are using to compare Dhalsims’ reversal options to Vegas’.
Word is that back flips are also better. This will help to make them more relevant tools and, combined with invincible ultra means Vega is going to be harder to pin down already. We don’t need invincible scarlet terror too. We just need better almost-everything-else. Which, luckily, seems to be the case.
Invuln on EX-FBA would be stronger than Invlun EX-ST.
Could be held with a down charge only, thus protect from crossups (via auto correct or some strict timing)
Doesn’t lose it’s charge AFTER the cross up (down charge again)
Would serve as a godlike run away tool
EX-FBA is already good as is. The most logical thing is to give I-frames to ST. It removes stupid tactics and carelessness from opponents but still has key weaknesses that can be exploited. I-Frames to SCH would be useless since it would still bring you back to your opponents face with recovery (unless they made it 100% safe) AND you wouldn’t have guaranteed damage if you used it as a reversal punish as well.
Better anti airs in super turbo: Ryu, Ken, E Honda, Deejay, cammy, fei long, arguably balrog, guile
Scarlet terror was really easy to cross over and hit the recovery, plus it’s invincibility ran out pretty quickly. It worked well for what you wanted it for, and the juggle for extra damage was nice on a low damage character, but it really wasn’t a wall of priority like say ken or e honda’s are
You know what be a unique, fun playstyle? A character that couldn’t block. Yeah like he was kind of mobile, but then if you got close enough to him, he just couldn’t block. Sure would be a unique playstyle, don’t you think?!
This has been done before in fighting games, with varying degrees of success. It all depends on whether the supporting tools and attributes make up for this weakness, and that’s exactly the point here. Vega doesn’t have an invincible reversal attack, that’s his weakness, but he won’t need it if his other tools are brought up to standard.
There certainly are times when I wished ST had i.frames during a match. But that is not as much as vega’s other shortcomings. Vega’s ST is ok and is working as intended. What vega needs as AA is better normals. Attacks like st.lk, c.hp, st.hk can be improved to stop jump-ins from different distances. It will certainly help his zoning game alot.
I wish the devs will improve for Vega is his fba recovery times, improve his c.lp’s frame rates, improve the usefulness of normal SHC (right now i find i use it only as an escape tool)
no you don’t scrub, you certainly dont know more about vega than i do. i’ve been using him for many years in many different games compared to you who only touched him in one game. therefore, you aint shit boy.
i tried seeing things from your perspective but its a lost cause, cuz you both think that vega is fine the way he is and anytime someone suggest that vega get buffed up, you two go apeshit and proceed to flame and dismiss that person. funny how you think your opinion is legit and everyone that disagrees with you is wrong.
The point is that invincibility frames isn’t some playstyle choice; Every other character in the game has some move with invincible frames, including those that are better at everything Vega is good at. If there’s a character with enough other weaknesses to justify having invincible frames, its Vega. Yet he’s the only one that wasn’t given any…on TOP of the fact that he always had invincible frames on ST in the past.
In all seriousness, when you consider some other aspects of Vega’s design, it becomes pretty obvious that not having invincible frames on ST was either because the designers just forgot to add them in (Piece of Mercury) or were just high when programming him (claw/mask removal.)
Your solution that Vega should have better normal AA’s, speed increase, and better frame advantage doesn’t solve his helplessness in the corner and helplessness on wake-up jump-ins.
And please don’t compare Vega to dhalsim. Dhalsim is meant for keeping the opponent out in SF4 (as he’s always been in previous games). Vega on the other hand, was originally designed for speed and acrobatics in his playstyle. Nothing about running away or playing defensivly. Capcom ever further pushed this playstyle when they gave him the ST in the first place to PREVENT him from getting bumrushed.
Characters who are meant to be played from a safe distance are given the proper tools for that…
Dhalsim’s keep out tools :
Any normal attack, EX upwards yoga flame, yoga flame, teleport. There are ALOT of AA’s and high priority normal in there aswell. Obviously you can tell by his movelist that he was made for distant combat.
Now lets look at what kind of keep out tools Vega has :
Standing HK, possibly crouching HP, Scarlett Terror, crouching SP/MP. Not very many in comparision to Dhalsim. This means Vega is not meant to be always on the defensive, hence why he shouldn’t be given moves that dont help his helplessness on wake-up jump-ins and corner games.
Look at his special moves…
Crystal rolling flash - Offensive
Walldive - Offensive
Sky High Claw - Offensive
Scarlett Terror - Offensive/defensive
Not hard to see that he’s made for quick offense, not quick defense. Thats why he needs tools to prevent people from putting him in a continuous defensive state.
Giving Claw some invulnerable frames on ST or FBA won’t homogenize him, as DHEvil suggests (that is, it won’t turn him into Ryu), nor will it break him, as others have said. It would simply make him slightly better and if the rest of the cast is getting better (some, markedly better), why not throw him a bone? Jesus Christ, this is the “Vega Improvements” thread, isn’t it?
Better footsies ain’t gonna do it. Sure, it’ll help in some matches, but Ryu, Sagat, Zangief, and Akuma still aren’t afraid of you.
Vega needs everything he can get, not only to make him better or stronger, but to make him FUN to play with again. Really and truly: Do you like getting crossed up all day for free? Do you like having to guess every time a Ryu or Sagat closes in? How about an EX-Psycho Crusher-esque move that at least gives him a break from the mind games. Is this FBA with invincibility? SHC? ST? Who knows; all I know is that he needs a few more tools.
EDIT: FoutsKazuya has some good points as well. Some characters are meant to be defensive (Guile, Sim), others are offensively-oriented (Abel, Viper, Akuma), but where does that leave Claw?
Its a good point. In ST he had buffs to offensive and defensive abilities but he was still weak against basically the same characters as he is in SF4. He was VERY good but he NEVER dominated. NO ONE complained about his ST thenb or his pokes or speed the only complaint was about his walldive.
So on top of his second rate pokes, shit specials and ultra and claw/mask loss you people are arguing against iframes on ST which requires a DB charge limiting its usefulness anyway.
You retards defending Vega need to actually play him in ST instead of making stupid points like he deserved a nerf because singapore banned him. SF4 Vega is a train wreck considering how strong Ryu and Sagat still are since ST.
