Sharpening my claws.. Vega(Claw) Wants/Needs

[chrisofrays]

I disconect on knockdown jokes

[Decadence]

Hold up, I don’t remember a lot of them having an SRK equivalent…

Guile? Flash Kick should theoretically be comparable, but isn’t.

Dhalsim? I hope you don’t mean a teleport, because this sure as hell isn’t an SRK. Teleports have already been covered, and function as an invincible escape move, which is what Backslash is supposed to be! Surely the equivalent of this would be to make Vega’s Backslash actually work! This is a move he’s had in every previous game, always had invincibility, works damn well more often than not, but I don’t see all the invinci-ST crowd mentioning it at all other than to say that in SF4 it’s crap!

Sakura? Her SRK barely works as an anti air.

Zangief? Lariat can be jumped on by a large number of the cast.

Bison? Teleport again, see above.

Blanka? His anti air hasn negligible invincibility, and he hasn’t exactly got a great reversal.

Abel? Roll is no different to a teleport. Hell, it’s a great example of what Backslash could be, because just like that, it only goes in one direction, yet it’s fantastic.

Rose? I wasn’t aware she had any invincible reversals, but to be honest, I know dick all about Rose.

Then we’ve got Chun-Li, Balrog, Rufus, Honda and Gouken, who only have a comparable move with bar. So are you trying to claim that all Scarlets should be invincible, or just the EX?

To be fair, this list just screams of ‘everyone else has one, I want one too!’.
Well, Vega isn’t everyone else, and simply doesn’t need it.
Abel in particular is a great example of how a character can be superbly functional and tournament viable without that stuff, and make do with a great evasive move instead. Since Backslash is one of Vega’s oldest moves, why not just make this work properly?

[Pandaman64]

We can play that way too. If you want an SRK, go play Ryu.

Yes, because that’s what Invulnerable ST would be. Not like it requires charge, or can’t be FADC’d. At least the dhalsim comparison made sense.

And was nowhere near as interesting to play as SF4 Vega. ST Vega wasn’t exactly deep, he just excelled in everything basic.

And what is it, exactly that he does here in SF4 that makes him so much more interesting? The worse pokes? the worse anti-air? The worse damage? Which thing is vega worse at that makes him more interesting and deep to you?

I mean, I love d/f + HK too, but seriously, the idea that vega can get a new tool (which, to restate, would really just be him getting BACK an old tool) and he would somehow become less fun to play is silly since it doesn’t prevent you from playing in whatever manner you choose. Vega will still be able to do whatever it is you currently enjoy doing with him.

If you think length of time playing him is relevant, then I’ve been playing him since Turbo and I don’t think ST needs invincibility. Personally, I don’t think having played him in the past is relevant in the slightest, but it’s your call.

Okay, when a character returns in a fighting game, there is an expectation. Ryu’s there? He’s gonna excel at the fireball/shoryu game, have a crossup j.mk, and a basic combo will involve c.MK to fireball.

Zangeif’s there? Okay, he wants to get in close to grab you, since he has the best grab in the game, and use his lariat/green palm to get around fireballs in order to achieve that goal. Guile’s there? He’s gonna wanna sonic boom a lot, since it recovers so fast, etc.

Vega’s there? He wants to zone and poke…oh wait, it’s SF4, he wants to play hit and run because he no longer has a reversal or great anti-air options.

I can’t understand how a character can exist in games for over a decade and now everyone wants to scrap that for something that’s worse in nearly every way.

The charge can be kept during crossovers. Hell, it’s easier than it was in previous games.
As for throwing it out early, this would be greatly helped by simply fixing its hitbox. Right now, the short and forward versions miss crouching targets, and the forward and roundhouse versions don’t hit right the way to his feet.

Scarlet doesn’t need to be invincible to be useful. Right now, it’s one of his best damage options. Just because it was his dedicated anti air before, doesn’t mean it should be now. Fixing his backflips to not be super punishable would greatly help.

You know what? Honestly? I agree that ST doesn’t NEED invulnerability, my only point in that was that ST as is, is pretty much shit, and that’s unacceptable. Invulnerability fixes a lot of crap that’s wrong with vega, so that’s the most logical chioce for what to change about it, but I suppose you could up the damage by 50 or make the lk version safe on block, with more juggle followups or something. I just don’t understand what invulnerable ST takes away from vega.

As for what to do when Vega gets put in a corner, how about not getting put in a corner? Yes, Akuma rapes in corner pressure, but he does this to most characters. I have no problem with Vega being weak to pressure if he has strengths in other areas to compensate. I think it would be much more boring to simply turn Scarlet into a crappy SRK and just cover gaps to make him an ‘all round’ character with a few gimmicks like his SF2 incarnation.

Emphasise his current SF4 playstyle and make his existing stuff work the way it was intended. That’s a much more interesting character.

That ‘all around, gimmicky’ character from SF2? Was better in nearly EVERY WAY. Please explain to me, how making a character worse in almost every way, with less options, makes them more deep, fun, and interesting.

It’s not like anyone’s wish list is “give vega SRK. DONE!”. Even if they made that chage, there’s still the issue of the wall dive glitch, key pokes needing buffs, terrible backflips/RCF/SHC, etc.

[view619]

snip

Each of the characters that he listed has at least one move, EX or otherwise, that makes the opponent think about his wake-up game. Dhalsim’s super has invul frames, Abel has a throw invincible and hit invincible command grab, Bison has EX Psycho Crusher, etc. Check his post before that, though. The one talking about all characters requiring the opponent to consider how to approach wake-up situations except for Vega (basically, put a linkable meaty normal on his wake-up for no risk whatsoever).
And yes, those moves can be avoided/baited and punished on recovery, but that’s not really the point. Also, I would have assumed that all Vega players already know that some normals and specials other than ST need to be checked before SSF4 is released.

[Decadence]

Yes, because that’s what Invulnerable ST would be. Not like it requires charge, or can’t be FADC’d. At least the dhalsim comparison made sense.

So basically, you want to turn it into a CRAP SRK?
That’s so much better.

And what is it, exactly that he does here in SF4 that makes him so much more interesting? The worse pokes? the worse anti-air? The worse damage? Which thing is vega worse at that makes him more interesting and deep to you?

I’m spotting a pattern here, you seem to equate interesting to powerful, and think a character who is weaker can’t be interesting. If this is the case, Sagat must be positively riveting to you.

I don’t see why the two have anything to do with each other.

and he would somehow become less fun to play is silly since it doesn’t prevent you from playing in whatever manner you choose. Vega will still be able to do whatever it is you currently enjoy doing with him.

Because as you’ve stated, his current game doesn’t work, and we’d rather have that work properly than to add new (yes, new, this is a new game) properties to a move that doesn’t need it. And he’s not going to get everything, and no one wants him to be overbuffed - I think an overpowered Vega would be as undesirable as an underpowered one.

So yes, we’d rather his current stuff works than an irrelevant buff.

Vega’s there? He wants to zone and poke…oh wait, it’s SF4, he wants to play hit and run because he no longer has a reversal or great anti-air options.

Why does a zoning/poking game require either of those things? Dhalsim certainly doesn’t need them. And what’s the big difference between the two? Movement options. Dhalsim’s slow, Vega’s fast, so of course a keepout game will involve movement a lot more for Vega.

I can’t understand how a character can exist in games for over a decade and now everyone wants to scrap that for something that’s worse in nearly every way.

That ‘all around, gimmicky’ character from SF2? Was better in nearly EVERY WAY. Please explain to me, how making a character worse in almost every way, with less options, makes them more deep, fun, and interesting.

Again, our aim isn’t a ‘worse’ Vega. Whether it’s worse or better than what came before is irrelevant. I think most people would also agree that SF2 Vega was also one of the most basic, simple characters in the game.

my only point in that was that ST as is, is pretty much shit, and that’s unacceptable

Huh? Scarlet is actually pretty damn good. The trouble is, you’re still looking to ST, where it was just his Flash Kick. It doesn’t fit the same role in SF4 - here, it’s for offence, not defence.

Invulnerability fixes a lot of crap that’s wrong with vega, so that’s the most logical chioce for what to change about it, but I suppose you could up the damage by 50 or make the lk version safe on block, with more juggle followups or something. I just don’t understand what invulnerable ST takes away from vega.

This logic seems like a good argument for invincible Scarlet, but it also works if you change invincible Scarlet to ‘Lariat’. I’m sure if we slapped the Lariat onto Vega it would really help too, and it wouldn’t take anything away from Vega if it was a simple addition. But that’s where you’re missing the objection.

It’s not like anyone’s wish list is “give vega SRK. DONE!”. Even if they made that chage, there’s still the issue of the wall dive glitch, key pokes needing buffs, terrible backflips/RCF/SHC, etc.

If you buff those, he doesn’t really need Scarlet to be better.

[BrentoBox]

Hold up, I don’t remember a lot of them having an SRK equivalent…

The important part of the SRK isn’t that it is an anti-air. It’s the fact that it is a reversal with invinciblity, and every character in the cast has some sort of equivalent. An invincible reversal isn’t important to just shut down jump ins. It is a tool to punish sloppy play or be rewarded when you predict your opponents attack. If someone is just spamming jab with Balrog right outside of your hit box, or is walking forward to and repeatedly ticking you, you should be able to use a move to stop it. For every character, they have a move that will counter sloppy attacks or at least give them a chance to escape, even if it isn’t 100% (Nothing really should be in SF).

Guile (EX Flash Kick)
Dhalsim (Super, or teleport away)
Honda (EX Headbutt)
Sakura (EX Shoryu)
Viper (EX Ground Pound, EX Burning Kick, Fierce Thunder Knuckle)
Rufus (EX Messiah Kick)
Zangief (Crouching Lariat, SPD, Ultra, EX Green Hand)
Chun Li (EX Spinning Bird Kick)
Bison (EX Psycho Crusher, EX Headstomp/Devils Reverse, Teleport)
Seth ((SRK, Teleport, SPD, EX Bullet Kick, Ultra, Super)
Sagat (SRK, Tiget Knee in many situations)
Fei Long (Flame Kicks, Chicken Wing Kicks (have some invinciblity when they start))
Gen (Kick Shoryuken, EX Walldive (invincible to the wall))
Dan (Shoryuken)
Cammy (Cannon Spike)
Akuma (Shoryuken, Teleport, Ultra, Super)
Ken (Shoryuken, Ultra)
Blanka (Up Ball, Ultra)
Balrog (Headbutt, Turn Around Punch, Super, Ultra)
Gouken (Counter)
Abel (EX Roll, EX Siesmic Toss (to beat tick throw attempts))
Rose (EX Soul Spiral, Ultra)

It is most often the case that Claw will be stopped before ever leaving the ground, and before his hit box becomes active, although he will lose an EX bar. Because of that, Claw players are forced to gain distance to reset momentum in their favor, instead of being able to turn the tide like every character in the game (And pretty much in SF history).

And please, can we stop saying that just because people want to give Vega something to make him better at dealing with pressure, you are turning him into Ryu? Like I just listed, every character in the game, some with vastly different playstyles than Ryu, is afforded that option because it is absolutely neccesary to being a competitve character. Saying “Go play Ryu” is a ridiculous rebuttal.

[Decadence]

Each of the characters that he listed has at least one move, EX or otherwise, that makes the opponent think about his wake-up game. Dhalsim’s super has invul frames, Abel has a throw invincible and hit invincible command grab, Bison has EX Psycho Crusher, etc. Check his post before that, though. The one talking about all characters requiring the opponent to consider how to approach wake-up situations except for Vega (basically, put a linkable meaty normal on his wake-up for no risk whatsoever).
And yes, those moves can be avoided/baited and punished on recovery, but that’s not really the point. Also, I would have assumed that all Vega players already know that some normals and specials other than ST need to be checked before SSF4 is released.

And what we’re saying is that Scarlet doesn’t need to be that move. Fix Vega’s Backslash, it makes more sense. I guarantee people would be more thoughtful of approaching Vega if his Quick Backslash allowed an evade and then counterattack when pressured.

Also, I can’t say I see many high level Dhalsims use Yoga Inferno regularly as a reversal…

The important part of the SRK isn’t that it is an anti-air. It’s the fact that it is a reversal with invinciblity, and every character in the cast has some sort of equivalent. An invincible reversal isn’t important to just shut down jump ins. It is a tool to punish sloppy play or be rewarded when you predict your opponents attack. If someone is just spamming jab with Balrog right outside of your hit box, or is walking forward to and repeatedly ticking you, you should be able to use a move to stop it. For every character, they have a move that will counter sloppy attacks or at least give them a chance to escape, even if it isn’t 100% (Nothing really should be in SF).

First of all, why does every character need to have something? What is wrong with a character specific weakness?
Second, Vega DOES have a move for this list - Backslash. The fact that it’s crap shouldn’t instantly lead to the thought ‘I must make Scarlet Terror invincible since Backslash failed’. Why not the much more logical ‘let’s fix Backslash so it works’?

Also, in SSF4, Vega already does have moves that work in this context - both Ultras.

Gouken (Counter)

Um, please no.
I think you meant EX Tatsu.

[Kei_Kun]

Scarlet doesn’t need to be invincible to be useful. Right now, it’s one of his best damage options. Just because it was his dedicated anti air before, doesn’t mean it should be now. Fixing his backflips to not be super punishable would greatly help.

His ST does have good damage but so what? The chances of you getting it to hit is very low. Its not reliable for AA and risky for reaction to slower normals and it loses to pretty much every special. EX ST having invincibility is a must for the sake of more options. The hitbox will still be crappy and its free combo for the opponent if he blocks the EX ST. I don’t see anything wrong with having a better EX ST. Have you not noticed that you have to be very close for ST to combo or even to hit? And since it doesn’t hit crouched units from a distance it doesn’t punish low sweeps like a SRK hitting out cr.SK. As someone stated before, it costs 1 stock and is still relitively unsafe… whats wrong with that? SRK are safe and costs no stocks.

Some guy on Eventhubs commented this on the “list of changes in SSF4, Vegas Build”

Kenneth G. on January 13, 2010 at 6:45 a.m. #108

Uh, you guys missed a few for Claw.

• Claw’s Bloody High Claw is now invincible on startup until it reaches the wall, and the screen will not scroll.

• Cosmic Heel comes out a bit faster, allowing for crazy crossups.

Me likey

Fixing the scroll bug on BHC by simply not making the wall move might not be as good as it sounds. The hitbox is utter bs remember? This might actually make it harder to hit but with a small assurance that it won’t whiff by Claw not finding the wall. Not sure tho… have to play the actual game to see it. But invincibility during the jump to the wall is sweet!

St.hp
This thing has an 8 frame startup and 23 frames of recovery. This is simply too much on both ends. I’d suggest a 5-6 frame startup and maybe 18 frames of recovery instead. Also, why does it hit with the fist only, even if he has the Claw on? This is bullshit!

Cr.hp
Startup is pretty good on this (5 frames), but why does it have 27 frames of recovery? -> 18-19 recovery frames instead. I won’t address the hitbox because it apparently already got fixed.

St.hk
Startup is great but hitbox could use some buff so it can be used at a bit closer distances also.

Cr.hk
Frame disadvantage on block is terrible… It’s too unsafe.

St.mp
Imo this should have just a little bit less range than cr.mp, but same frame-data otherwise.

Cr.mk
Startup reduced to 5-6 frames because it’s so good on block/recovery already.

St.mk
Same here.

St.SP hitting only on the fist is very BS I agree. It needs full claw range. But it shouldn’t be faster. Its a move to poke at people’s long distance mistake. Its fine the way it is in terms of speed.
cr.SP is already improved as you said. Doesn’t need to be faster. These moves arn’t there to be super safe. Its a move to punish bad movements from the opponent. It also shuts down Rufus’s dive rushes pretty well.
Cr.SK needs more recovery I agree. It needs to be more safe from a closer range and the start up really does need to be faster.
St.MP why?
Cr.MK I think its perfect the way it is now.

Overall I think his normals are fine. His newly gained overhead will already screw up his style (I’m very disapointed at the overhead actually).

[Mycah_Leonhart]

Man… I think I need to make a quick rundown of Vega’s Wake Up Options in every game.

CE, Backflip - ridiculously slow and far but invincible
HF/Turbo, See above.
SSF2, Standing HK - pretty fuckin’ decent
ST, Standing HK works but trades - Flip Kick works 90% of the time (Best game Vega’s had so far)
A3, V-ism only for whatever reason and it was decent.
CvS2, Damned good Standing HK, so good you didn’t need Flip Kick but it was a nice backup if you have charge - fast as hell and gdlk poke game (only ST Vega can match this Vega)
SF4, Prayer.

I understand some of you cats don’t run off to play in tournys but those of us that do from time to time (or those of us that would like to again) and have been playing this mofo for YEARS would like to have an answer to fuckin’ Jump Ins and Tick Grabs - dunno if you been keeping up with current events but Vega loses for free once he hits that corner or that Flowchart Shoto that just learned what a crossup is.

I know I can’t have ST Vega but can I at least get CvS2 Vega back? (gdlk standing HK)

[Decadence]

His ST does have good damage but so what? The chances of you getting it to hit is very low. Its not reliable for AA and risky for reaction to slower normals and it loses to pretty much every special.

You know you can combo into it, right?

I understand some of you cats don’t run off to play in tournys but those of us that do from time to time (or those of us that would like to again) and have been playing this mofo for YEARS would like to have an answer to fuckin’ Jump Ins and Tick Grabs - dunno if you been keeping up with current events but Vega loses for free once he hits that corner or that Flowchart Shoto that just learned what a crossup is.

How do you compete in tourneys if flowchart shotos have their way with you?
Jumpins lose to FA>backdash and blocking (gasp!).
Tic grabs can be teched, st.RH to the face, non-invincible ST (!!) and hell, even non-overhead df.MK beats them.
Neither of these need an invincible ST.

[Jozhear]

mycah i’ve gotten 4th in a tournament of 64, the best players in alberta, and I’m all for ST not having invincibility. not to sound conceited, but aside from Tatsu, I’m the best Vega I know; why is it you should assume we’re casual players / non-tourney goers?

Decadent pretty much is speaking for me.

[Kei_Kun]

His ST does have good damage but so what? The chances of you getting it to hit is very low. Its not reliable for AA and risky for reaction to slower normals and it loses to pretty much every special.
You know you can combo into it, right?

You can combo into it yes… but usually only when you jump in with a SP. Test out the range that you can actually combo ST. You’ll be very disapointed that you can’t do it from full claw range ( or even half of it). cr.MK will make ST link from further away, but you’ll find it almost just as sad.

[view619]

Normal ST invincibility is a laugh, EX ST is feasible and a proper back flip is very welcome, granted you’re now giving up space instead of frames where the opponent still needs to only drop a linkable normal meaty on your wake-up that you won’t be able to punish (unless new back flip will be able to punish whiffed meaty low short). Yeah, not many good Dhalsims use his super for wake-up, but it’s there, isn’t it? The opponent has to keep in mind that there’s a chance that it will be used against him in a wake-up situation. Still, I agree with the mind-set that Vega has to pay in some way to get opponents off of him, whether it be with space, frames or gauge (all of which can lead to big damage in the next few seconds).

[Bangmango]

As for the 2nd comment, no offense but if that’s the case, you don’t have much perspective on the matter. You’re a new SF player so you just look at it like “oh Vega’s a character that’s really a challenge if I want to prove my superiority over the opponent.” This is where all this masochistic “Don’t give him anything good!” talk is coming from; you guys like being at a disadvantage and winning against the odds. Dan’s already there for that…Vega isn’t supposed to fill that function and neither is any other character in a well-balanced game. SF4 Vega isn’t a completely different build from the past, as much as it’s the same build with nearly every aspect nerfed, plus some extra disadvantageous silly shit that doesn’t even make any sense (mask removal, anyone?) Going back to my Ryu analogy, would there still be people playing him in SF4 if his fireball and srk were shitty, he couldn’t land ultra reliably, etc.? Yup. Would they still find ways to win some matches? Yup. Would it be well balanced? No. Would it be doing the character their proper service? No. Its no different for Vega currently.

You street fighter newbies should read this again. Better yet go play ST and get some perspective. Just dont shit your pants when you find out he plays exactly the same except he isnt rubbish.

[Kei_Kun]

What is everyone’s fetish with Claw having better backflips? Its a emergency life line. Its not mean’t to be uber usefull. I don’t want Claw to be like SF2 where he litterally can backflip all day(even though he wasn’t playable back then it was hell to pressure him in corners since he won’t stop flipping). PPP version maybe 4 frames better recovery but KKK is definately good as is.

[Pandaman64]

So basically, you want to turn it into a CRAP SRK?
That’s so much better.

Bunches better than it is right now, yes.

I’m spotting a pattern here, you seem to equate interesting to powerful, and think a character who is weaker can’t be interesting. If this is the case, Sagat must be positively riveting to you. I don’t see why the two have anything to do with each other.

I like how you start out saying the buff would be a crappy SRK, but now is suddenly too powerful? Lol, good shit man.

You know what I find fun? Options. Having options is fun as shit. I love options. I love limiting the opponents options. I love trying to stop the opponent from locking down my own options. Vega getting another AA option that doubles as a reversal option? I’d find that fun, even if it came in the form of, as you yourself put it, a “CRAP SRRK”.

And while balancewise sagat may be fucked up a bit, his safe tigerknee strings ARE fun. Whether sagat should have them is another discussion entirely.

Because as you’ve stated, his current game doesn’t work, and we’d rather have that work properly than to add new (yes, new, this is a new game) properties to a move that doesn’t need it. And he’s not going to get everything, and no one wants him to be overbuffed - I think an overpowered Vega would be as undesirable as an underpowered one.

So yes, we’d rather his current stuff works than an irrelevant buff.

So which is it? is Invulnerable ST irrelavent or OP?

Why does a zoning/poking game require either of those things? Dhalsim certainly doesn’t need them. And what’s the big difference between the two? Movement options. Dhalsim’s slow, Vega’s fast, so of course a keepout game will involve movement a lot more for Vega.

Dhalsim has both more AA options AND reversal options that vega. AND he zones better. So…yeah. Go on.

Again, our aim isn’t a ‘worse’ Vega. Whether it’s worse or better than what came before is irrelevant. I think most people would also agree that SF2 Vega was also one of the most basic, simple characters in the game.

Cool story bro.

Huh? Scarlet is actually pretty damn good. The trouble is, you’re still looking to ST, where it was just his Flash Kick. It doesn’t fit the same role in SF4 - here, it’s for offence, not defence.

“combo Ender” is a bullshit role for a special move, and that’s the only offensive quality ST currently has.

Invulnerable ST makes the opponent play more defensive, letting vega be more offensive.

This logic seems like a good argument for invincible Scarlet, but it also works if you change invincible Scarlet to ‘Lariat’. I’m sure if we slapped the Lariat onto Vega it would really help too, and it wouldn’t take anything away from Vega if it was a simple addition. But that’s where you’re missing the objection.

And maybe we should give vega’s pokes the range of dhalsim’s, that would sure help his zoning game. You know what would REALLY help vega’s zoning? Having guile’s sonic boom. Man, c.MP to Sonic boom would be so crazy! Bad logic insults us both. Don’t talk like what I’m doing has never been in vega’s design. Invulnerable ST isn’t some new idea that’s never been done. I’m not giving E.Honda a sumo hadoken here.

[blklightning21]

Man… I think I need to make a quick rundown of Vega’s Wake Up Options in every game.

CE, Backflip - ridiculously slow and far but invincible
HF/Turbo, See above.
SSF2, Standing HK - pretty fuckin’ decent
ST, Standing HK works but trades - Flip Kick works 90% of the time (Best game Vega’s had so far)
A3, V-ism only for whatever reason and it was decent.
CvS2, Damned good Standing HK, so good you didn’t need Flip Kick but it was a nice backup if you have charge - fast as hell and gdlk poke game (only ST Vega can match this Vega)
SF4, Prayer.

I understand some of you cats don’t run off to play in tournys but those of us that do from time to time (or those of us that would like to again) and have been playing this mofo for YEARS would like to have an answer to fuckin’ Jump Ins and Tick Grabs - dunno if you been keeping up with current events but Vega loses for free once he hits that corner or that Flowchart Shoto that just learned what a crossup is.

I know I can’t have ST Vega but can I at least get CvS2 Vega back? (gdlk standing HK)

i kno i dont kno wy people are arguing as why they shouldnt give vega an option. Im tired of in tournaments after playing the whole match smart and getting their life down., to get knock down once and have almost all life takin away just because they want crossup all day walk in and throw me when i backflip, still hit me on wake up dash, get me when i focus, get me when i try to jump out of it. pretty much anything because i cant answer. It really sucks getting second in a bunch of tournaments you should have won.

[Mycah_Leonhart]

mycah i’ve gotten 4th in a tournament of 64, the best players in alberta, and I’m all for ST not having invincibility. not to sound conceited, but aside from Tatsu, I’m the best Vega I know; why is it you should assume we’re casual players / non-tourney goers?

Decadent pretty much is speaking for me.

Just the replies from some folks in this thread - it’s obvious they are not on that next level yet…I know I sound like an elitist prick when I say that but in some of these posts it’s painfully obvious what level some of these folks are at.

And no, I will not list names or single out posts - but it’s like I’m on neo-geo.com all over again.

[Decadence]

I like how you start out saying the buff would be a crappy SRK, but now is suddenly too powerful? Lol, good shit man.

We’ll ignore the quality of your posts deteriorating into playground insults and internet memes, and respond to your points.

Capcon can go a few routes here. One is to buff everything - fix what’s broken, AND give moves properties they don’t need just because it makes them better. We’re objecting to this one because it’s overpowered.

Another route is to give Scarlet invincibility, and not buff the other aspects of his game which should cover this role but currently don’t work. We’re objecting to this one because it’s boring and leaves Vega with a load of game mechanics which don’t get used because they’re obsolete and don’t work.

Both of these are unnecesary and create a more boring, easy Vega.

Dhalsim has both more AA options AND reversal options that vega. AND he zones better. So…yeah. Go on.

Vega shouldn’t zone because Dhalsim does it better?
In that case, he shouldn’t reversal because Ryu does it better. This argument doesn’t make any sense.

AA options? Dhalsim gets by, and has no SRK, he relies on his normals. So should Vega, fix his AA normals. I don’t see why this means we need invincible Scarlet.

Reversal? Dhalsim has Yoga Teleport, which is a purely escape move as a reversal. That’s Backslash all over. Vega has a move which fits this role, it’s just crap. It should be fixed. Reversal Super? Who exactly does this? From my experience, Super is for massive damage in combos. Besides, both of Vega’s SSF4 Ultras now fill this role, and don’t waste bar (unlike Dhalsim, Vega actually uses his bar for EX). So again, this doesn’t lead to invincible Scarlet being any kind of obvious answer.

“combo Ender” is a bullshit role for a special move, and that’s the only offensive quality ST currently has.

I don’t agree, combo ender is a perfectly adequate role for a special, particularly a damage based special. Almost anytime you can land a cr.jab, you can land this.

Invulnerable ST makes the opponent play more defensive, letting vega be more offensive.

Better pokes and keepout moves, with better evasive moves, makes the enemy more defensive, letting Vega be more offensive. Plus, we already know Cosmic Smart is sped up, and his Ultras are invincible, also allowing more offence.

And maybe we should give vega’s pokes the range of dhalsim’s, that would sure help his zoning game. You know what would REALLY help vega’s zoning? Having guile’s sonic boom. Man, c.MP to Sonic boom would be so crazy! Bad logic insults us both. Don’t talk like what I’m doing has never been in vega’s design. Invulnerable ST isn’t some new idea that’s never been done. I’m not giving E.Honda a sumo hadoken here.

I have no idea why you thought that giving more examples for my point would help yours. Just like invincible Scarlet, all these things would make Vega better, but they’re not the right move.

Invulnerable Scarlet has indeed been done before, but so has a good Backslash!

Bison’s had his infinite ‘paint the fence’ loops before, should we give him this back?

i kno i dont kno wy people are arguing as why they shouldnt give vega an option. Im tired of in tournaments after playing the whole match smart and getting their life down., to get knock down once and have almost all life takin away just because they want crossup all day walk in and throw me when i backflip, still hit me and wake up dash, get me when i focus, get me when i try to jump out of it. pretty much anything because i cant answer. It really sucks getting second in a bunch of tournaments you should have won.

So, your opponent could answer all of your responses, but it’s you who should have won? Why exactly?

[Ouroborus]

Man… I think I need to make a quick rundown of Vega’s Wake Up Options in every game.

CE, Backflip - ridiculously slow and far but invincible
HF/Turbo, See above.
SSF2, Standing HK - pretty fuckin’ decent
ST, Standing HK works but trades - Flip Kick works 90% of the time (Best game Vega’s had so far)
A3, V-ism only for whatever reason and it was decent.
CvS2, Damned good Standing HK, so good you didn’t need Flip Kick but it was a nice backup if you have charge - fast as hell and gdlk poke game (only ST Vega can match this Vega)
SF4, Prayer.

I understand some of you cats don’t run off to play in tournys but those of us that do from time to time (or those of us that would like to again) and have been playing this mofo for YEARS would like to have an answer to fuckin’ Jump Ins and Tick Grabs - dunno if you been keeping up with current events but Vega loses for free once he hits that corner or that Flowchart Shoto that just learned what a crossup is.

I know I can’t have ST Vega but can I at least get CvS2 Vega back? (gdlk standing HK)

don’t forget that in the sf2 series, invincible reversals were not too big of a deal. also vega had the most damaging throw and throw range in ce.

and cvs2 vega had rc claw roll and rc flip kick