that trf tourney had ichi,beruberujin,zangitan,curry mama and the likes.
btw my point is that whatever the case,izunas are the only way for claw to stand a fighting chance against most of the characters except blanka,chunli,gief and a few others.
in the same tournament,a sagat player whos generally considered good fell for the same izuna trap done by the same vega player.
[media=youtube]fGSpX87hTMg[/media]
you can also watch [media=youtube]Z4cV3fTn02U[/media].
i could keep posting recent tourney vega videos all vega does is izuna drops after a knockdown to get them wins.
also note that this wakeup game was found very recently after a random japanese dood figured out that you can izuna a wakeup dping guy 2 frames before or after.(after which 3 vega players made the top 200 bp)
its pretty complicated and cannot be verbally explained.
The Izuna loop is perhaps one of the scarier gimmicks Claw has, it’s especially valuable against Sagat. I hope the changes mentioned to his Wall Dive don’t break the consistency of the loop.
its not exactly a gimmick though,its a +2 -2 frame guessing game.if the opponent guesses the claw player to izuna early,he’s got to dp early.if the claw player izunas late,the only way to beat it is with a late dp.
its basically a guessing game.
ST being a charge move has nothing to do with its usefulness as an AA
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It means that you have to stay immobile in order to use it as an anti air. This is a big deal for its usefulness.
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ST is a great AA, many characters like Ryu with jumping roundhouse can actually get beaten by an early ST because at the peak of its hitbox it’s essentially going vertically upwards. Nothing can really beat that. Any move that goes 90 degrees is likely to beat any sort of other move, especially when at the peak Vega’s body is pretty much vertical as well.
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Lets be honest here, ST is ok as AA. It certainly isn’t terrible, but great as AA is shoryu’s, or well any move that can be done very late in the jump. The fact that it must be done early reduces how good it is.
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Like Jeenyus said, EX ST wouldn’t do anything as an anti-air. only 4 frames of invincibility isn’t enough. A jab SRK can’t reliably beat Vega as an anti-air. It would just mean you had something to get people off you up close… and as I’ve always argued, isn’t that a legitimate weakness for a character who should be quick, hard to catch, and good at keeping people out? As it stands now he can’t really do any of these things reliably like Dhalsim can. Why fix the area that would water Vega’s game down instead of emphasize the areas that could use fixing in the first place? Makes for a more interesting character and it’s not as if Vega not having invincibility is the be-all, end-all of his gameplay. Also, EX ST would do nothing against cross ups. You can also safe jump an ST so wouldn’t help there.
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For starters, almost nobody safejumps 4f moves. You would need to do that within a 1f margin, and while possible, I haven’t seen the japanese do it and I have been looking for it. Hell I have rarely if ever seen it done on 5f moves, which has a 2f margin. I am with the majority in that I don’t mind vega having a get off me move, but I think you all underestimate how powerful having invul frames up to the execution point is for an upwards traveling move. Especially considering that it is very fast, and can be done from crouching. It is not just the amount of invul, it is the amount of invul versus the startup. Sadly my frame data book isn’t with me in France, but how good do you think cammy’s dp is? That only has invul up to the startup point. What about Sagats? I am mostly sure ex flash kick also only has invul up to the startup point. Invul Ex scarlet terror would be a VERY effective antiair against most of the cast.
And yet, while completely disagreeing with your assessment of EX ST, I agree 100% with the changes you suggested. Those would all be awesome. I also think vega is much much better than people give him credit for. The only downside right now is the very long match sets in American tournaments. That holds him back a bit, he can lose sometimes where he doesn’t deserve too.
Vega’s Down-Towards + Medium Kick is an overhead attack.
New Ultra: Splendid Claw. He performs a slide attack and then does a series of moves ending with a vicious looking upwards slash. You should be able to combo into this.
Startup time on his Rolling Crystal Flash has been decreased."
We can now hopefully combo more with rolls, combo into ultra, and mix it up more on defensive blockers
Vega’s Down-Towards + Medium Kick is an overhead attack.
New Ultra: Splendid Claw. He performs a slide attack and then does a series of moves ending with a vicious looking upwards slash. You should be able to combo into this.
Startup time on his Rolling Crystal Flash has been decreased."
We can now hopefully combo more with rolls, combo into ultra, and mix it up more on defensive blockers
The difference between Cammy’s DP, Sagat’s DP and other character who have great “get off me” moves is that they are ALL FADC’able and have invul on startup on their regular version not JUST Ex, unlike what Vega would have! (assuming his Scarlett Terror still does not have invul on the regular version like it is now and only on his EX version)
Why make EX Scarlett Terror have invul on start up for anti-air purposes instead of giving Vega a reliable Anti-Air normal instead? Then you’d be able to save your meter and if Vega were to get a “get off me move” it should be a further back traveling flip. This way if you’re in the corner it wouldn’t be effective at all since you have no space to get away and in mid-screen it would be effective. Therefore, it’d be balanced, if not slightly too good for Vega IMO. This would however make baiting certain moves and punishing them for throwing out moves impossible though since it would put Vega too far back so I’d rather not have a further back traveling flip at all.
I just personally think Vega doesn’t need a free “get off me move” he just needs to have better improvements to what his character is fundamentally made to be good at and what’s at the center of his character design: pokes.
He’s not a noob-friendly tankhouse character like Sagat or an all in one type of character like Ryu and he certainly shouldn’t be, he’s Vega…
I think almost everyone who mains vega fairly seroiusly thinks pretty much the same thing the more I read, although our reasons for thinking so may be different.
Give vega better pokes, more mobility, make the backflips slightly better in some way.
That seems to be the gist of it. Everything else is just icing.
I heard that the hit-box on crouching fierce was fixed/altered. Saw a Cody trading/being effectively stopped with it on the stream, but that could have been because Cody was attacking late or the Vega happened to be in that one position that makes crouching fierce slightly reliable. That would be the go-to AA ground normal that he needs, IMO.
destin, the charge time for Scarlet Terror is 45 frames. all you have to do is your neutral jumping shenanigans like you normally do and just hold DB any time you commit to something. being able to use cosmic heel and the slide to move around and store your charge whilst doing so makes ST a pretty good move. lately I’ve been turtling hard and storing charges for ST to use as an anti-air, and especially in the Abel matchup it’s gotten me tons of mileage… If you clam up on your ground game and hold the ground people will be forced to jump in on you sometimes in which case you can get away with sitting on your ass for 1.5 sec
That Sagat is a scrub and furthermore the Vega didn’t even Izuna loop him. Funny you should post the Valle-Tatsu match because that’s a perfect display of what’s wrong with Vega in SF4 and why relying on Izuna loops is not a good gameplan. Everytime the commentary guys said “Welcome to SF4”, it was obvious what they meant.
And the Cammy video was a great display on how important an EX ST with some invincible frames would be. You can’t apply that constant pressure he was doing w/o worry against anyone in the cast like you can against Vega. And an important aspect that everyone’s left out is that Vega’s claw and mask handicap make him even further susceptible to carefree rushdown. Even if Vega blocks and techs everything correctly and gets out, he’s still at a huge disadvantage now.
And as for the argument that a good ST would go against the design of the character, I want to agree with that philosophy but two things stop me. First is historical precedence: Vega’s pokes, walldive, super, etc. were ALL better in the Super Turbo days, AND he had invincible frames on ST. What they did to Vega in 4 is the equivalent of if they gave Ryu both a shitty fireball and a shitty srk, and when Ryu players started asking for a better srk, the response was that its not the design of the character and it’d make him too good.
On the same line of thinking, the whole “going against the character design” goes out the window in SF4 when you take a look at Sagat (and Ryu for that matter). Sagat is supposed to be huge, slow zoning monster, which would already be a good character. Except that he’s all of that, plus has GTFO tools and things that make him even more dangerous up close. So no, I’m not buying that as an excuse to not give Vega a decent reversal because its precisely these differences and willingness to disregard those ideas with regards to certain characters that make those characters the strongest in the game and leave Vega at the bottom.
well i was awaiting super with high hopes but seeing as i just found out my girl is pregnant i will probably not be playing it as much as i thought. I was really excited that his damn mask and claw didnt seem to come off as easily as it did before tho. But good louck to all the future vegas out there
I know alot of people are saying that this is faster or hey that that is faster too…but did anyone think that it just might be faster cause the games faster?..
So if ure faster so will be everyone else so really nothing could have changed at all…atleast speed wise that is …just a thought
