Sharpening my claws.. Vega(Claw) Wants/Needs

[laxlight]

Pretty good how you manage to misquote me, completely ignore the context of the discussion AND prove nothing in doing so, all for the purposes of self-aggrandizement.

Obviously Vega has the advantage over Rufus when it comes to pokes. This is his single advantage, in a SF game where pokes are as weak as they’ve ever been, Vega’s aren’t even as good as they used to be, and actually, Rufus’ best poke has MORE range in cr.fp than any of Vega’s. All of that being said, the poke advantage is negligible because Rufus can close distance and pressure so easily. Simple divekick spam locks Vega down far better than Vega’s poke game locks Rufus down. That’s a fact…and its the basis of what any decent Rufus vs Vega matchup boils down to.

This is what I meant when I said Rufus is better at basically everything. He dominates the matchup, has better tools, deals and takes far more damage, you name it. And on top of all this, he has how many normals that combo right into Ultra? This why I had to laugh and shake my head when Cosmic Heel into ultra was shot down…pretty much on the basis that it would mean Vega has something powerful for once.

Yup. This laxlight fellow seems to be high on ego and even higher on nonsense. An amusing combination.

you basically restated what ive been saying all along.a good rufus player(or any other player) works only about half as hard to close in on vega compared to sim.and as it stands,this is the area where capcom seems to work on.

and btw you did say that rufus has better everything.right now,in this matchup vega having a huge advantage in the footsie and poking department is just about enough to give him a fighting chance.and with the video i posted,rufus players DO lose to vega players in the higher echelons of competition.

[sakeido]

not to mention scarlet terror is like headbutt in that it can’t be FADCed and is always unsafe on block. That right there is a pretty significant balancing factor… even if it was invincible, it still wouldn’t be very good

[laxlight]

You should really quit being so condescending. The thread is a discussion thread where people will post their opinions and disagree with yours. If you thought you were going to change everything with just a few posts, and now you have to “Sigh” at people to try to make a point, you should post less and read/listen more. Your opinion is just your opinion no matter how right you think you are.

Case in point, Dhalsim has a move with Invincibility. It is called his Super, it beats meaty jump ins on wake up, comes out fast, does about 500 damage, and since he has no use for EX moves, he pretty much always has it stored. People have a reason to think before they jump at Dhalsim. Yet somehow, he isn’t broken?

Same goes for Chun Li. Chun Li has an amazing poking game, with great air to air normals and an airthrow that both meet or exceed Vega’s in priority (and they juggle and hit twice to break focus). Her normals have great range, faster start up, and she has a slow fireball which really changes everything about her already strong spacing and poking game.

And she has an invincible reversal to beat meaty jump ins, punish sloppy tick throws, push the opponent away safely and combo to Ultra in the Corner.

Bison, who has a superior poke game to Vega because of the short scissors, coupled with his great normal, has invincible EX Psycho Crusher to beat meaty jump-ins or at least get him out of trouble. He is at even frames with his opponent at the end so he can’t really be punished. He also has Devil’s Reverse to get him safely off the ground, and EX Headstomp, both of which have invincibility. He also has great air to air normals, which can also combo to Ultra.

All of those character have great poking and spacing games, along with huge advantages that Vega lacks (such as fireballs, overheads, combos to Ultra and Super), with invincible reversals (which every other character in the entire game has, I should add) and they still aren’t broken. Somehow, even though Guile has invincibility on his EX Flash Kick, and can throw Sonic Booms to space, AND has one of the best airthrows in the game, you still manage to hit him and win right? Invinviblitity on Reversals isn’t a broken concept. It’s how Street Fighter has always been, and unless you have some overwhelming offense (Like Bison in ST with touch of death combos, or Juri soon in Super SF4) you need it as a simple and reliable part of the game no matter what character you play.

The biggest problem is the idea that pokes and spacing will help you win matches against top tournament players. You think your going to out poke or out space Combofiend’s Rufus when he is holding down back in the corner with a good life lead, teching your throws, and you have no overhead? Don’t think so.

But Vega does have an overhead now, things have changed, and I should stand by what I said earlier.
New Character. Discussing the changes he needs now doesn’t mean too much anymore.

And

please note that i got no qualms in making one of his ex moves to come out with invisibility frames.
we where talking about how changing the priority of vega’s ordinary st would morph him into a completely different character.

beside that point which you overlooked,you make a valid post.

[view619]

ST invincibility = no
EX ST invincibility (4 frame start-up) = yes
IMO, that’s the only way that’s going to work. That, plus a better flip (heard something about flip distance changing) and just paying attention and blocking/teching your way out should make Vega’s wake-up options much better. EX ST isn’t free (meter-wise) and is still unsafe on block.
Now, can we kill the arguments concerning Vega’s tier position and what the Japanese players have to say about him, etc? If you like Vega, deal with his weaknesses and play him. If you don’t, then don’t. Who gives a shit about whether or not other people like the character.

[laxlight]

ST invincibility = no
EX ST invincibility (4 frame start-up) = yes
IMO, that’s the only way that’s going to work. That, plus a better flip (heard something about flip distance changing) and just paying attention and blocking/teching your way out should make Vega’s wake-up options much better. EX ST isn’t free (meter-wise) and is still unsafe on block.
Now, can we kill the arguments concerning Vega’s tier position and what the Japanese players have to say about him, etc? If you like Vega, deal with his weaknesses and play him. If you don’t, then don’t. Who gives a shit about whether or not other people like the character.

this

[prof21]

ST invincibility = no
EX ST invincibility (4 frame start-up) = yes
IMO, that’s the only way that’s going to work. That, plus a better flip (heard something about flip distance changing) and just paying attention and blocking/teching your way out should make Vega’s wake-up options much better. EX ST isn’t free (meter-wise) and is still unsafe on block.
Now, can we kill the arguments concerning Vega’s tier position and what the Japanese players have to say about him, etc? If you like Vega, deal with his weaknesses and play him. If you don’t, then don’t. Who gives a shit about whether or not other people like the character.

agreed

[ChozoAce]

Sup Vega brotha’s

I believe all of us Demand a “SSF4 Vega Demo”:rock:

And i would just like to say that some of yall act like they haven’t changed anything thing in SSF4 with Vega im just glad that they made “some” changes. :lovin:
I really can’t find myslef having another main then Vega

If He’s sooo horrible in SF4 why do us Vega players still use him? I’ll tell you why…
Cuz we got the ballz/determination and skills to still own with everything he got hiding up his “claw” :smokin:

and i think only people who main Vega can only have that type of feeling to play with a character like Vega no other character can share that with him (Dan is a different feeling thing )

ok im pretty lazy rite now i could go on but i don’t feel like :blah: to yall =) oh yea only “real Vega players know”

^I like this guy hes looking at the bright side and makes a good point
so far they gave Vega
-An overhead
-Faster recover on walldives
-Faster startup on RCF
-An ultra that doesnt suck
-Cr.Hp has more vertical range
SF4 is the first fighting game i took seriously and im shocked that they actually changed this much about 1 character.
Im pretty sure most of you guys knew this already but looks like some of you had to be reminded =/

[EmblemLord]

Did someone say invincibility on Ex ST? Yup, yup. Good shit.

[Dontdodat]

so you’re saying that these people handle you from a distance in a manner similar to dhalsim or vega?
do you honestly know what you’re talking about???
how do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you come about and say people like rufus and zangief can handle you from a distance??

btw its understandable when you say ryu or sagat,but you would still be wrong.
cause these people can only control the space with their fire ball.they cannot HANDLE you from a distance.

like say for example,in a poking game:when i sit at sweeping distance from a ryu(being vega) his only option is to sweep to make contact,while just about any of
my normal moves would make contact.thus this is a situation where the vega player has a lot more options compared to ryu to land a hit.

these are the basics.you might want to go over to the vega board and read his normal properties and stuff.

i would also recommend you to delete your post before some of the regulars hop on this.

I’m going to start this reply by saying I don’t like you for these reasons:
You’re rude and full of yourself.

Firstly sweep distance gives a Ryu player the option to jump in and attack, not just sweep. And if you think fireballs can’t handle a character from a distance you clearly have never played a character that uses fireballs. Eventually you have to close the gap against high level players.

Rufus and Zangief are good at closing gaps and getting in close, if this doesn’t nullify the distancing argument than what does?

I’m also not going to delete any post I make to appease your ego. If you’re not going to discuss Vega civilly with me then you can just stop talking. Show some respect, it’s the least I did for you.

please note that i got no qualms in making one of his ex moves to come out with invisibility frames.
we where talking about how changing the priority of vega’s ordinary st would morph him into a completely different character.

OMFG, and you suggest I never read the posts? My first post to you was about EX Scarlet Terror straight from the get go. Go ahead and re-read that stuff, and no I didn’t edit it for convenience. I made several paragraphs about Vega’s EX Scarlet Terror and it’s balancing which you responded to with “OMGWTFBBQ broken, don’t do it”.

[Destin]

Invulnerable frames on ex st is very important not just as a reversal, but as an anti air move. It becomes a near full proof anti air for a character with some of the best pokes in game. Especially given the slow pace of the game, I am sure capcom thought twice before giving any of the really good poking characters (bison, vega and chun in my book) a full proof anti air like they did many of the others. There is a degree of balance making them charge moves, but given many characters poor ability to fight a poke war with vega, taking out any chance they have of jumping seems very dangerous.

I would much rather see other changes promoting mobility and foresight, while properly rewarding them.

[Jozhear]

yo, lots of long posts. Whoever thinks Vega isn’t tourney viable should play me. Add my GT.

[Dontdodat]

Invulnerable frames on ex st is very important not just as a reversal, but as an anti air move. It becomes a near full proof anti air for a character with some of the best pokes in game. Especially given the slow pace of the game, I am sure capcom thought twice before giving any of the really good poking characters (bison, vega and chun in my book) a full proof anti air like they did many of the others. There is a degree of balance making them charge moves, but given many characters poor ability to fight a poke war with vega, taking out any chance they have of jumping seems very dangerous.

I would much rather see other changes promoting mobility and foresight, while properly rewarding them.

Yeah I understand what you mean, but because it’s a charge move, it’s harder to pull of consistently as a reliable anti-air. As I mentioned earlier, Blanka’s most reliable anti air move is the EX Up Ball, but people still jump on him once and a while. People just need to attack when they notice these characters standing upright or walking around. Boxer has his EX Headbutts but those are rarely used for anti-air purposes (Cr. HP is just better)

Also the hitboxes on Scarlet Terror could always be made to allow for it to get beaten by an air attack, partial invincibility like in the case of Boxer’s headbutts for example would balance it nicely I think.

[Xgrayninja]

So, Splendid Claw…is it a charge Ultra, or QCF type? I only ask because I’ve yet to hear a clear response on this issue. Forgive me if it was already answered and I missed it.

[jeenyus1]

Invincibility on only the EX version of Scarlet Terror would have little use as a wakeup move unless it’s used as a Anti-Air. If you want a free wakeup “get out of jail card” you need it to be FADC’able. Otherwise you’re just gonna get baited into using it or you’re gonna have to use it as a guessing tool and if you’re wrong; you’re eating a free combo or Ultra instead of just blocking or at worse case scenario, taking a throw.

[prof21]

So, Splendid Claw…is it a charge Ultra, or QCF type? I only ask because I’ve yet to hear a clear response on this issue. Forgive me if it was already answered and I missed it.

I think people said its charge b,f,b,f KKK. A bit disappointing since it limits the comboability a bit. Hopefully it at least has the same quicker charge as ST.

[Xgrayninja]

I think people said its charge b,f,b,f KKK. A bit disappointing since it limits the comboability a bit. Hopefully it at least has the same quicker charge as ST.

That is rather disappointing. Still, it’s good to hear that it may be comboable.

[prof21]

Invincibility on only the EX version of Scarlet Terror would have little use as a wakeup move unless it’s used as a Anti-Air. If you want a free wakeup “get out of jail card” you need it to be FADC’able. Otherwise you’re just gonna get baited into using it or you’re gonna have to use it as a guessing tool and if you’re wrong; you’re eating a free combo or Ultra instead of just blocking or at worse case scenario, taking a throw.

Disagree, invincibility on ST would still be a huge improvement w/o the ability to FADC it, in that if you guessed correctly that your opponent would attack, you’d win the exchange. Just the threat of this possibility alone would help Vega on wake-up tremendously. As it stands now, no one has to be weary of attacking and can just pressure Vega for free every time. You don’t have to bait out and punish an EX ST because even if Vega does it, it often loses. So why not attack?

[laxlight]

dude even vega and sim have options to hit an opponent up close.but its about the NUMBER of options you got.get it?

as you said,in an array of terrible footsies rufus only has a crhp which is his ONLY option to make contact in sweeping distance.and as a vega player this or a jump in is probably the only move that i would expect him to do.get it?

and your zangief comment is terrible,just about all the characters make sure that gief has to work his ass off to get in.and you say that it doesnt matter in most of his matchups.

so i did say jumping in is also an option.vega even in his current build can counter jump back fierce on reaction.

> I’m going to start this reply by saying I don’t like you for these reasons:
You’re rude and full of yourself.

Firstly sweep distance gives a Ryu player the option to jump in and attack, not just sweep. And if you think fireballs can’t handle a character from a distance you clearly have never played a character that uses fireballs. Eventually you have to close the gap against high level players.

Rufus and Zangief are good at closing gaps and getting in close, if this doesn’t nullify the distancing argument than what does?

I’m also not going to delete any post I make to appease your ego. If you’re not going to discuss Vega civilly with me then you can just stop talking. Show some respect, it’s the least I did for you.

you cleverly changed your words saying that rufus and gief are good at closing in.(which is also wrong btw,gief is terrible at closing in and is the point which the other characters have to use to their advantage)

originally you clearly said,

These listed characters cannot be meatied on every wake up and they can handle you from a distance. So how do you usually figure them out?

Rufus, Sagat, Ryu, Zangief, Akuma, M.Bison, Ken, Chun Li, Guile, Dan.

Yes even Guile and Dan. Do you have trouble against these characters? Clearly you must since a character that can attack you from a distance and has an invincible wake up attack is troublesome! :bgrin:

which was just sbout the dumbest statement you can possibly ever make.

you just cannot expect people to take you seriously.and btw you NEVER talked about the ex st in the first post.as already accepted no one has any qualms with making ex st come out with invisibility frames.

now im starting to doubt wether you have played the game at all.do you have xblgt or psn??lets do an ft10(im pretty sure you wont be able to win a single match.)

i dont know about you,but u would never go into the character development of someone whom ive never used or understand
and talk crap.cause unlike you,i know that would make me look bad.

[laxlight]

Yeah I understand what you mean, but because it’s a charge move, it’s harder to pull of consistently as a reliable anti-air. As I mentioned earlier, Blanka’s most reliable anti air move is the EX Up Ball, but people still jump on him once and a while. People just need to attack when they notice these characters standing upright or walking around. Boxer has his EX Headbutts but those are rarely used for anti-air purposes (Cr. HP is just better)

Also the hitboxes on Scarlet Terror could always be made to allow for it to get beaten by an air attack, partial invincibility like in the case of Boxer’s headbutts for example would balance it nicely I think.

this again proves that you no nothing about the game.any of the charge characters with a reliable AA can counter a meaty jumpin(after being knockeddown) with their aa(ex ball,bird etc),if you’re talking about a
techable knowckdown,it doesnt matter because no one can meaty you on a techable knockdown.and btw people jump in on EVERYOTHER character once in a while.does that make the others any less reliable in terms
of their aa?

the more you talk,you having no knowledge on the game clearly shows.

[AirPhforce]

Here’s to hoping Vega is made solid mid-tier. I’m no pro, but the changes I’ve read so far, particularly a command overhead, should really help poor claw.