I find walldives in ST and Alpha to be way harder to control, so the control has already been improved in my eyes. Unless I’m playing online and the game is lagging I don’t really have any problem landing where I intend to land.
Let me ask you this, when was the last time you saw this many people discussing the viability of an air command grab, a la Akuma demon flip throw, have you ever seen such contention in that forum about how to hit said throw, and its not even a huge part of his arsenal, whereas Izuna is.
Akuma DF homes on EX and has ridiculous speed and recovery in EX mode.
Something as big as Izuna should not be a mystery to be solved and even after you solve the mystery you are still playing odds that are stacked against you, that is my gripe, on knockdown Oki Izuna games should not be subject to utter BS which it is, ever tried focusing a demon flip throw…? What happens when you do and it whiffs? What happens when Izuna whiffs and gets focused?
I am not being sarcastic or calling you out, yes there are better players here that have a handle on Vega, now imagine you put that time into Sagat or Balrog. I commend the likes of yourself and Joz and Bebop (etc there is a massive list of good players you know who you are), what I am saying is because you learnt to work with something broken and got good at it. does not mean you have to accept it or make excuses for it, Izuna can be better, dont accept the lameness they put in for it, why do things have to be so tough for you as Vega? Is it because of your ridiculous foot/jumpspeed, or your massive pokes, or your massive HP or the fact that your Ultra will link to everything? What they did was take a hacksaw to a lame horse and called it Vega.
Craw
Alpha was hard to control because its fast and slippery which fits the system that Alpha uses very well. But this is a different paced SF compared to Alpha.
Anyone can get anywhere they want to be with his FBA when they get used to it but its undenyabley stiff. What makes this move really stiff? You can move foward very easily but you can’t move back that well. Allowing him to move back with more ease will make his move less stiff and allow Vega to be where he wants to be. Of course don’t make it so that he can go from one side of the screen and back to the other, but smoother you know?
If EX FBA had invincible start-up frames, it would be a dragon punch that deals great damage and would be [relatively] safe on block.
Outside of Akuma/Ryu/Ken/Sagat, most characters have trouble on wake-up. In fact, Claw has it pretty good compared to a few others.
What to change?
Make him do 1 damage if he loses his claw and only 200 life or something without a mask cause he is a fairy.
Just kidding. I think he just needs not be able to be owned if you take away the walls a I guess.
I think Claw has the worst wake-up game in SF4. Who would you say has a worse game then him? I know Dhalsim has some trouble, but he at least has super.
Is there a difference in your chances of landing the Izuna Drop with a 360 pad and a Stick?
Most people have sticks and other have pads
Is it ok for people with the pad to complain about how they can’t land the Izuna Drop effectively
izuna drop is piss easy to land on a pad…so no
worst wake up? push 3 kicks/punches at the same time. it does something
worse wake up? Guile’s insanely fast reversal is plagued by a retarded hitbox and properties that makes it either get stuffed or go completely in the wrong direction. Chun’s wakeup game basically consists of focus backdashes and stuffed ex sbks. Bison’s wakeup game is just devil reverses and teleports that put you right in punishment distance from your opponenet. Abel’s wakeup game would be absolute shit if it weren’t for his roll.
Claw has the worst wake-up game.
I question ever posting in this thread again when I see people say shit like “Others have it worse than Claw (with regards to wakeup)”
That’s just completely stupid. Take your own advice. Try using flips in a match; see how far it gets you. I implore you to do so. Using flips on wakeup is a monumentally stupid thing to do. Why on earth would you use flips on wakeup if you CAN’T EVEN GET REVERSAL TIMING ON THEM? At least Guile can FADC to safely try a reversal attempt; obviously Vega and Guile will both suffer from cross ups but Guile, ultimately, has the benefit of an invincible move, and 3 frame jabs that help him get out of tick pressure more easily than Vega does. Chun’s EX SBK does WAYYYYY more than anything Vega can do, and Bison’s wakeup game is EX Devil reverse, which, is both invincible, and allows you to move him away safely in some situations. He’s got EX Headstomp to deal with Vega’s Izuna as a specific example, EX Scissors, and EX Psycho, all having invincibility. Abel’s EX roll works well and EX TT has invincibility.
So… how the FUCK could you possibly conclude that those characters have it WORSE than Vega on wakeup? Furthermore, you use flips as testimony. Do you know anything of what you’re talking about? Jesus H Christ. Simple solution; meaty jab fucks Vega over, it beats ST, Vega flips? Walk up untechable knockdown w/ sweep, back to square 1. Every time. Saying “push 3 kicks/punches at the same time. it does something” as if all the other Vega players in here don’t know better is incredibly condescending and seriously, in my opinion, makes you look REALLY stupid. Any smart Vega knows that if he tries a flip on wakeup, he’s gonna get fucked over for it. If players aren’t punishing them enough, they simple aren’t playing the matchup. In no situation should flips work on wakeup. They are better for midscreen positioning, using them cancelled out of your normals, and for avoiding equally recovering moves (ie Zangief’s grabs) or preventing wakeup SRK’s / other FADC’able moves from being FADC’able.
Think before you post.
How about actually providing some support for your argument than just saying, “IT’S BAD IT’S BAD IT’S BAD!!1! I KNOW MOAR THAN J00!”?
Elitist prick…
Even then, you still have to use an EX bar for that, while DP’s are good anti-airs without having to use EX. But then again, EX FBA is one of Vega’s best moves in the game, it doesn’t really need to be touched. He has other issues that need to get looked at.
Check my post. How about actually providing some support for YOUR argument rather than implying “You guys didn’t know flips could be used for defense…?”
you proved he has a bad wakeup game. good job. where’s the part where you explain why his is the worst? I mean wasn’t that your point?
Actually, not only did I prove he has a bad wakeup game, I proved he has a worse wakeup game than the characters you used to justify your argument, and not only that, I basically proved your bullshit argument wrong. I see you’re really working on that K-groove.
If I tried to explain why vega’s wakeup game is the worst, I’d be preaching to the choir. Everybody knows why.
- Vega has no invincible moves except the flip which I already talked about
- Everybody else does
Case closed.
More thoughts;
EX FBA would be ridiculous. Like kte03 said, don’t need it. You’d have the option of a 200 damage reversal that would, in many matchups, be completely safe on block or whiff? That’s a bit much.
Craw: I think describing Vega in the way you did is wrong. Though, yes, I probably would be doing really well if I picked a different character, because I really put the time into Vega and learned as much as I have now, I prove that he isn’t a bad character or that he is as you described him. The understanding to play vega took me a while to ascertain because his mechanics are so unforgiving… (ie fucking up once on offense and basically losing from then on, or the mask falling off at inopportune moments, etc.) I think other people just hit certain bumps and cast Vega out when he can really do a lot of stuff in this game.
umm…no you didn’t?
Uhm, I clearly typed SOMETHING about Guile, Chun, and Bison, and Abel, the characters you mentioned… who else is missing? I’ll go over them for you since you need to have clearly obvious facts spoon-fed to you.
Dhalsim: Teleport. Better than anything Vega has. KKK Teleport has 30 total frames, 24 of which invincible. 6 frame recovery < the 9 and 10 frame recovery on Vega’s flips, not to mention how much easier it is to react to 40 and 60 frame moves than a 30 frame one. Dhalsim also has invincibilty on his super, and Dhalsim can use wakeup ultra to some positive extent as it can trade in his favor.
Fuerte: All guacamoles have invincibility. While it has no blockstun, and whiffs all the time against grounded opponents, you still have the possibility of avoiding a hefty meaty or throw attempt from the ground. Plus, it does the AA job much more reliably than ST. EX Run for 2 hit armor, which while vulnerable still, is way better than anything Vega has.
Rose: EX Soul Spiral is invincible and with proper spacing is safe on block. Obviously you don’t have the choice for spacing if you’re the one that’s on the ground but at least it’s invincible. EX Soul Throw invincible as well. Ultra and Super invincible.
Gouken: Parry, EX Demon Flip, EX Hurricane; all invincible. Ultra and super invincible.
Gen: Gekiro invincible. EX Oga invincible. Super, ultra, invincible.
There’s nothing more to say. Trying to argue Vega has a better wakeup game than others is like trying to argue that Dan beats Balrog 7-3 because of his superior footsies.
People always talk about Dhalsim and Abel having shitty wakeup games but what about Sakura? She has it worse than everyone, except for Vega. Only EX SRK and Ultra + Super are invincible.
Consider my mouth shut. I still don’t see how his is worse than Sakura’s. Something I’m missing?
Sakura has a DP, Ultra, or Super which are much more reliable than Vega’s wake up tools. Vega’s is a backflip, which Joz already explained.
should the DP really be included when only her ex dp has invincibility?
Doesn’t Vega’s ex flip have invincibility too?