Anybody with invinciblity moves should not get thrown by Izuna Drop.
Consider this:
You can only Izuna Drop Ryu exactly when vulnerability runs out on his SRK. He can do it early to catch you on surprise before you even do an Izuna. He can also do a SRK late to beat out your Izuna Drop no matter what (can’t throw out of invul). It’s much easier to time a DP than an Izuna Drop.
FA -> Backdash beats this consistently and opponents can punish afterwards.
They could also do a jumping attack and beat it out. It’s sad how SHC (designed for air-to-air) LOSES to random j. attacks.
If Izuna Drop was so godly, we’d see more people using his Super. After all, his Super has a longer throw range. As it stands, Super is only good for taunting bad opponents.
Wall Dives are very high risk / low reward. You get a 90 damage slash or 150 throw if you hit. If it gets blocked or whiffs, you eat basically every combo in the game.
More shenanigans than anything else. I doubt this works on higher-level players like Mago or Daigo. It’s pretty bad getting hit by 6 Izunas when they are already hard to land on a STANDING opponent in the first place.
Izunas will miss if your opponent even blinks. To Izuna Drop out of a Dragon Punchm, you have to hope that your opponent used a L.DP at precisely the time you predicted it. If he does it late or a fierce DP, there’s no way you’re going to land it.
Here’s that Tatsu vs Valle video, for reference. [media=youtube]2YabGN3DQrQ"[/media]
Ok, so maybe it wasn’t 6 in a row, but it was more like 3 in a row on 2 separate occasions.
Wow. Wow. That video is a like a video summary of everything we have been talking about in this thread.
The way Vega gets abused by jumpins (and neutral jumps in the corner), his mask coming off and taking ridiculous damage from EX-Tatsu>Ultra (even with Guts), showing how Izuna is abusable (i.e. “good”) and shouldn’t be too much easier, and how he needs more reliable links so that you don’t get DP’ed out of what should be safe combos and pokes.
It’s like a please fix Vega video all in 4 minutes.
Darkfroggy, it’s still possible to beat SRK’s at precise timing. “Surprise SRK’s” that hit you out of izunas shouldn’t be happening if you’re using the vortex. By this point, any attempt at a surprise SRK will be an easy izuna for you. They literally magnetize into your hands if they do the shoryukens early. If you come from above it’s one of the easiest ways to connect with it. The point in initiating the vortex is to land an izuna first; that’s why meter for full screen EX FBA punish or confirm combos is so necessary, and shouldn’t necessarily be saved for defensive purposes. Once you land an izuna you do the FBA as soon as you are available… the timing makes it so that people have no choice but to stand their ground with something, or backdash, which is tough and in most timing, punished by Barcelona Strike. Obviously it’s pointless to go for izunas using fullscreen tactics; in that case they’ll be smarter doing Jumping mp.
All you guys who say izuna isn’t easy just need to practice. If you want to play Vega, then take the couple hours or so learning how to reliably hit with the izuna. How can they possibly make izuna easier to do? A grab input would just mean you wouldn’t have the safety of Barcelona if you miss (and you need this safety a lot, otherwise you will be fucked in many situations), or they’ll make the range bigger and it’ll be a seriously OP move. Sure you guys would be able to hit with it easier, but what if you REALLY practiced? You’d be able to hit people out of a LOT of shit… It’s very easy… Once you learn the method and start applying it in matches, you’ll be getting them down faster than you know it. It’s like I said, in 90% of this game’s matchups, if they don’t have meter they have a seriously hard time escaping it, even people with teleports. like a good 50% i’d say still have trouble when they have meter. It’s an extremely powerful tool, and everyone’s saying “don’t scrub it up with SF” well they’ll scrub it up even more by making izuna ANY bit easier… seriously… practice.
If they do a fierce dp, they simply have a higher chance of getting punished. a well time Lp. SRK is likely to trade which could be a better trade off for Ryu as it can easily happen that Ryu whiffs the fierce DP in the opposite direction and gets punished by the sweep, or c. mp EX FBA (jab recovers in time). Consider this; it’s about as easy to escape the izuna as it is to pull one off. Hardly anybody I’ve played against has reliably escaped the izuna drop. There are match videos of Cat Vega izuna’ing a Sagat Grand Master (Pie) 5 times in a row. It will work on many characters, and it is very solid. Again, Valle has been owned by it, as has Pie. The problems we are talking about are all stated when Valle punishes Vega’s throw tech attempts with massive confirm combos that drive him int othe corner and eventually remove the mask for the early KO.
Ok… Izuna drop hitboxes are not hard to find. But getting the hitbox to work is a different thing. EX/Normal grab have different ranges and that can screw some people’s head around but! Based on the video link that I saw above the Ryu did many uppers very early against a normal grab. If the Ryu does a dp right before Vega can grab, there is next to no way that he can grab him. I myself have grabbed many uppers that went 1 frame earlier than they should do the dp. And since uppers automatically switch sides for you in the last frames of execution, it doesn’t matter if you cross up. Its all about spacing and pros are often patient enough to upper Vega for a sure hit. Theres even a timing and spacing where its soo strict you can slash people’s upper with a cross up. Looks like a bug too, Vega just kinda moves behind them. But I doubt anyone can do that with perfect execution. Its just too big of a hassle.
Remember, the grab itself doesn’t actually grab the upper, it dodges the upper’s hitbox long enough for the grab to hit. Thats the main thing that limits how strong the grab actually is. However, it does out-prioritize EX uppers. Atleast I know for sure with Sagat’s EX upper. And thats the only specific situation where I know for sure is completely safe. But if its not EX then Vega might as well say bye bye or pray to god they do the upper slightly too early.
That’s the problem here. Ppl just don’t want to understand that an Izuna can get reliable after practice. Well then, guys. You don’t want to practice it? Don’t land it. Get owned. Get focussed. Whatever.
You might not want to believe it, but some posts of you guys show how advanced you are in the game. You can’t say something doesn’t work just because you can’t pull it off or use it in the wrongest way possible. “Can’t execute, don’t like it.” That is pathetic.
And seriously, darkfroggy. Where did you pull that Izuna Super bullshit argumentation from? Your ass? The super doesn’t get used because it does crap damage, and isn’t worth four meter bars. Plus, you lose all your meter after hitting the wall. That’s the reason.
Also, in this game, you can’t walldive from fullscreen like an idiot. You can easily react to that with jump back fierce. But damn, try to jump back when we’re close the wall and I can assure you’re gonna find yourself on the ground again.
I’ve always thought that Vega should do great damage and have a great health boost with his mask and claw, but still do decent damage and have decent health without them.
Losing the mask shouldn’t give him girl health
I know the dude’s a narcissist but that shouldn’t make him a total bitch.
Im not a great Vega, ill admit that much so maybe the practice more does apply.
But i think its kind of silly how izuna’s work… especially how a lot of focus attacks leave you missing it completly. Focusses of people who dont move to much during the animation are ok, but some like akuma or honda and some other people make it so hard to hit izuna its better not even to risk it for the huge damage you get when they absorb or get missed.
When you play the game online the surgical precision needed doesnt help as i have a different connection with every opponent.
Now i know how people generally feel about online play here, but its the only way i can play except for some very rare tournaments here in the netherlands.
Moves like cammy’s hooligan or akuma’s demon flip throws or 10x easier to land…
So i would agree to make the move a little easier to land OR make Focussing people easier targets, much like jumping people are now.
Making izuna a bit easier , would not mean the move is inbalanced, because wall dives can be easily countered by alot of normals (even grounded) jumping attacks/throws and specials because the move comes out so slow.
I normally dont even try to wall dive someone with an ultra stocked as it can easily be an easy ticket to 50%+ damage.
Corpse hop mix up seems to be more reliable then a vega vortex to me.
And if a Ryu for example does hit that DP with proper timing, he doesnt even need to sacrifice meter to gain an ultra/super , red fireball combo
Add to it that SHC is a huge risk and a shitty anti air that gets beat out by alot of jump ins and is unsafe even on an unexpected grounded hit(save ex version)… and it makes for me playing a more grounded vega then i wished against a lot of characters.
Edit for ilitirit: Sagat is actually probably the easiest character to hit izuna on… if i could hit everyone that well, that would be sufficient. I mean the match up against sagat remains 7:3 in spite of the easy izuna? it does not change much.
I got one. Take away everyone else’s (i mean virtually everyone) easy jab/short cancels and make everyone have 1 frame links like Vega does. Don’t know how many times i’ve been SRK mashed out of a combo.
Sure, YOU can, but some others sound like they don’t - and I don’t really think the grab range is a really important issue anymore, is it? If the walldive were just more damaging and/or faster it would already be good enough. Changing the grab range will make it even better, sure. But do we really need that? is that the first priority?
EX Izuna can still grab most jump normals and stand normals like Ryu’s jMK or his crSP if you control him well and in the right spacing but thats the problem, the control is too stiff making it a huge mind game on Vega rather than the opponent. A Vega player has to be decisive and pick a spot to be and sometimes when the opponent does something completely different, all Vega can do is instinctively press punch hoping that would either grab em or sweep them. I think the normal grab should have the same range as EX now but the EX should have more flexible movement. Make it easier to be where you want to be.
If you improve the grab range then more air moves are grab-able, making it harder to deal with vega walldive spam. Dealing with vega wall-dive spam should not be an issue, so as far as grab range I am fairly happy with where it is now. There are many other areas he needs help rather than his wall dive grab range. Also remember his wall dive grabs ducking players with no throw break and option select claw attack. This is a big difference over some other characters air command grab attack options.
