cool idea i like it
Have yall seen the new Gamespot demo showing Guy and Adon
while i was watching the speed of Adon Jaguar Tooth of how fast he flys toward the wall to his opponent is freaking fast also Guy rolling into his elbow attack speed is insane too
If they make Vega’s Barcelona attack and his RCF slower then them im going to be pissed!!! :grrr:
Honestly, it seems that Vega’s normals are just fine. He has excellent footsies. What I think he needs is for his special moves to not suck so fucking much. Seriously, most of them are borderline-useless. They don’t need to be great either, but at least make his special moves viable tools to fight with.
Considering how Capcom decided to make things easier to do in general, why was it that Vegas’ Izuna drop was made so much harder to land?
They do contribute to the overall ‘suckness’. A large part of gameplay is about space control, now consider what moves actually control space, let us for a second go straight to hier tier Sagat, although I do not hate Sagat himself, I hate what he has come to represent; an FADC away from victory (more on this in a second).
(I feel like there is a section missing here I will think about it and get back to this later)
Ultras are by-and-large a magic bullet in that they can turn a match upside down, (fair enough everyone has one) but the implementation of each character’s Ultra should give said character some space control (read: almost equal opportunity to pull it off in a match), try to jump in on an Ultra loaded shoto and you are (usually) in for a nasty bit of damage, keep close to Gief on wakeup and he has Ultra loaded and that could be it for you (if you are not baiting), the Ultras themselves are not game breaking as such but the threat of an Ultra itself is a powerful tool to have, the threat of an FADC Tiger Genocide keeps me from my jump ins and normally that is fine but FADCing me out of a legit combo and using that ridiculous double HK juggle then Ultraing my ass makes me wince (I do agree its a legitimate tactic, but dont shaft me with a stupid Ultra that I cant FADC into and dont take away my tools for breaking some of his stuff). FFS EX TU can link to Ultra, its almost like lets ignore Vega and work on the umpteenth millionth Ultra link for Ryu/Sagat/Rufus etc.
Ultras also serve as relief from offensive pressure once a character’s Ultra is loaded you are forced (for viable Ultras) to vary your approach and thus remove some of the offensive pressure in your game. What makes Vega Ultra hurt even more is that even when he has meter (Ultra or otherwise) not a whole lot has to change in your offensive game in a vs Vega match. Couple this with his poor stamina and the ease at which he dizzies and loses zoning capability (you are blocking, let me get rid of that claw for you) and the ridiculous (when added to the bonanza of fail) mask loss penalty and you have broken Vega.
Taking away a characters options/tools basically cripples them, as evidenced by high level play. How many Vegas do we see in top level play? (I have not seen Bebop post in ages I can only assume he dropped Vega like a sack of potatoes). The Ultra is only one example of broken-ness.
I am not asking for a high tier Vega, I am not asking for EZ mode Vega, just address the failures. If Capcom want people to invest (personally) in a game and play this is what happens when they break something (people will invariably complain). I realise total balance is out of the question there is no such thing as a fair playing field, but stop moving the goal posts and telling us to keep playing.
More to come for the moment I am out.
<Edit>
I am covering much the same ground here that has been covered before, let me collect thoughts and posts from before and summarise this weekend.
Cheers
Craw
If im honest, all i would like to see for vega is faster movement speed and more arial priority. I dont mind him being lower tier, just means other players dont know their match ups. Especially for non serious players.
I’d like to see three minor changes to Vega:
- Shorter recovery for an empty FBA.
- Larger grab range for the Izuna Drop.
- Controllable ultra (angle up or down slightly, a la Elf’s ultra).
EDIT: I lied. Two more:
4. Fix for the wall-scrolling bug.
5. SHC should always be safe on hit.
It’s a 150 damage Zero-frame throw that can be mixed up from both sides on wake-up, results in an untechable knockdown, and is fairly safe if you are coming down after using an EX-bar.
That is pretty buff. It is still possible to throw people repeatedly (with great spacing), so I think they chose to error on the side of non-abusable. I think it’s 98%-99% perfect as it is. The kind of range people are asking for could really make it too good.
Yeah, the damage on the Ultra is really one of my biggest problems. One of the biggest problems with the game in general is the vitality and guts systems. Other than Viper, Akuma and Seth, almost everyone with low life is lower tier, and most with more life are top. Although tools and Ultra’s are the main factors, Vitality plays a huge factor in the way matches play out.
Hitting Vega’s Ultra on Gief, with no claw, mask on, and with Gief on low life is disheartening. It does a pathetic amount of damage.
Overall, it really comes down to High Risk, Low Reward. Vega needs to be able to combo for big damage in clutch situations. Poke Character or not, his pokes and speed are not godly enough to merit his low damage and how hard he has to work to get it.
for exactly how strong izuna drop is and for how hard it is for many characters to escape the izuna loop it deserves to be hard to hit with
Izuna drop can be one of the strongest moves in the game. there are only a few characters who can get out of it reliably (Bison with EX Headstomp, Vega, against Honda and Blanka) so if they made it easier you’d see a hell of a lot of izuna spam. against shotos and certain other characters, izuna is your main key to winning. even akuma has trouble dealing with it- meaty izuna and he teleports away, you recover in time to follow and sweep, and if anybody shoryu’s at any time but exactly the right time it’s an izuna. It’s not that hard to get the hang of, it just requires practice. and considering it’s power it is a huge risk, yes, so to be able to capitalize on that opportunity should require a high amount of accuracy. not to mention the ground mixups that are available at this point, as they leave your opponent grounded for a long enough time for Vega to decide where he wants to go, which is a liberty he doesn’t have except for ST’s and sweeps, as normal throws don’t do much for positioning.
I don’t think Vega’s special moves suck at all but RCF does deserve to be sped up a little. Barcelona Strike shouldn’t lose out quite as much as it does and some work needs to be done on his ultra. SHC is useless so it either needs to be made very fast or very safe, cause Barcelona Strike serves the “escape a move, and punish it purpose much better”. Perhaps it sould knock down on hit, as that would be a pretty good attribute for it to have. ST is totally fine. I am still in the “Vega should not get invincibility” boat.
Why shouldn’t Izuna drop be abusable?
And why should ST NOT get invincibility?
It is abusable as it is now. It is just not easy to do, which is fine.
I think Vega needs to do slightly more throw damage also. For as much as his game relies on Kara/Tick-Throws and footsies, it should be have a little more reward. Sagat and Balrog’s throws do a lot more than Vega’s and I don’t really see why.
I think the mask throw should have a purpose, and/or removed entirely. I would change the motions for his Super/Ultra to charge :db: :qcf: :hcb: . Not super easy that a scrub can pull off effortlessly, but not really difficult to land. Same applies to Guile’s Super/Ultra. Other than that, I think he’s fine
Like BrentoBox said, izuna is abusable. Practice more.
And I have explained numerous times that
- Invincibility on ST won’t do much to help Vega, despite what everyone seems to think
and - Everyone always argues “Well don’t give this person that, that homogenizes the cast”.
- ST is a move Vega cannot do without, and serves many, many purposes as it is already. It works fine as an anti-air in many situations despite certain jump ins that commonly beat most AA’s (Sagat Elbow) and of course meatys.
So my argument has always been; If Vega’s the hit and run character, like he’s supposed to be, then why even bother giving him invinicibility? Sure it would fix a lot of his problems, but if he had a better zoning game, and could ACTUALLY do the run part of hit and run more succesfully, then he wouldn’t really need invinicibility. Tune up normals, and some hitboxes, and Vega will be able to have a defensive game that consists of running away and using quick normal AA’s from long range like AA st. RH. Him not having invincibility would be the chief weakness he’s supposed to have in this game… only, if his normals were actually better, then this weakness wouldn’t seem to be so much of a problem. It is totally possible that they could tune up Vega’s zoning game so not having invincibility weren’t a death sentence for him all the time. Even in the Abel matchup, Backdashing, flipping, and waiting, using ST, can get you out of more situations. You would still get crossed up every single time on your wake up, as you need to hold a back charge for ST to come out, and sure it would help you a little to get out of trouble, but even giving EX ST invin frames would not help much. You’d be forced to sacrifice your long-range punishes (any smart Vega saves EX for EX FBA, SHC, and jab RCF FADCing, or EX FBA confirm combos) for a little bit more help on defense which will in most situations get bated anyway. Sure it would make him a little more nasty up close, but why make him so similar to everyone else when he can have fixes that support the style of play he has in this game? The only arguments I’ve seen to oppose this are “Play ST” well I’ve never played it, don’t need to, I’m playing SF4, blah blah blah. I’ve been down this road many times, just ask Brento.
ST does lots of stun, huge damage, and you can use it as an AA To mix up with your airgrab; you predict a jump in, use ST immediately. Chances are people aren’t throwing out meaties early to beat your ST (if they are, use your airgrab). You only get one hit? Great use another. They are so high up in the air after hitting an ST that you have the time to corpsehop in 3 different ways, safe jump, or begin your izuna loop, or just use Vega’s mobility to your advantage. The good part about ST is it’s extremely wide arc and generally, another way to AA amidst the ways Vega already has. Plus, Cosmic Heel ST is amazing to integrate with your footsies, and as a punisher, is very powerful, and like I said, every time you hit an ST your offensive game (which relies on landing jump ins - now THERE is a problem Vega has that I adressed a couple pages ago by suggesting more blockstun on his sweep) can be made use of.
Everybody seems to have blinders on when it comes to using these moves. You can’t just use them the same way Ryu uses a DP, so obviously if you are you’re going to think this move sucks. Of all Vega’s special moves, ST is by far the best. Watch any pro vega play and you’ll see he gets them off all the time – as compared to FBA, RCF, and SHC. I used to think giving Vega ST invinc. would make him broken, but oviously it wouldn’t. It’s just an insta-fix that makes Vega more similar to other characters when he could receive fixes that would actually support his style of play. EX ST is an amazing move as well, because of its REALLY high stun, and as we’ve seen from Cat Vega, the fireball invinc. does not allow Hadou pressure strings.
Anyway… like I said, giving ST invic. would help, yes, but for the sake of different playstyles for different characters, give him better run away capability. There is not much problems with Vega’s offensive game, what with Kara throw, Izuna vortex, and great footsies, but the defensive aspect does not hold up in certain matches. AGainst Abel, his footsies up close greatly outpriotize yours, so your only choice is to run away, but for every time you back dash, Abel gets a forward dash AND a f+ mk. That’s just one example… Vega needs to be quicker so the running away really works. This means, quicker in movement speed, jump speed (only 1 frame faster than ryu?), and specials / normals speed.
If it’s so abusable now why is it so easy to get hit out of the air?
If you time it right, its actually pretty hard to hit it out of the air…it will beat you every time.
I agree with you 100%
I remember seeing Tatsu do it (Izuna) to Valle like 5-6 times in a row and the dude couldn’t do anything about it. I thought I just didn’t know what to do about it myself, but there seems to be just that sweetspot that some Vegas just know.
You can’t do much about Fuertes’ infinite, either.