Alright. Time to break this shit down again, or we’ll never come to a conclusion and derail this thread another 400 pages.
How did all this shit start? Rugal asked what could have possibly been the reason Capcom nerfed Vega, and I replied that it could have been because of ST Claw, whom it required almost no technical skill to win with because he was not a technical character. Of course you could say that ST is generally a very simple game but Vega was the simplest of them all. And his pokes and his walldive trap MADE him braindead. Whether you want it or not.
Braindead does NOT mean god tier.
So, then I made the mistake to say it takes no skill to win with him, which is pretty much wrong and the reason I CORRECTED myself afterwards, but you didn’t mind reading, did you? I put it a bit wrong - it does take skill with him to win, but he is without a doubt not a technical character and fairly simple/easy to pick up and win with. This, at least, IS MY THEORY on why they nerfed him.
Who the hell said anything about walldives here? Even if it does take footsies to win with him, it doesn’t make the walldive crossup bad. It’s still a fucking stupid good tool and Izuna was damn easy to land. It’s also one of the major reasons Sirlin lost against Tokido and got that feature removed in HDR, stating that “even pro players have difficulties getting out of this”.
Also, just because ARG doesn’t play like that it doesn’t mean that it’s not effective. There are other top players who are even better than him, like Noguchi, who uses the trap against players like YuuVega and Tsuji. And I haven’t even looked for videos against other characters… Now call those two retards.
But just to clarify - this trap was not necessariliy the reason I called Vega stupidly braindead. His pokes and his insane speed (easy to jump in) were even more part of it.
The Blanka match-up would be easier if electricity did not knock out every move you did. After doing that, you lose all advantage at going in.
Ultra is deadly considering how you can take 600 damage just for doing one poke. It does a sizable amount of chip and always knocks off your claw.
Blanka has easy comeback potential and can just sit on DB charge if he has life lead. Vega has to move forward and risk eating a horizontal ball, jumping will result in getting hit by vertical ball.
I’m new to the fighting game genre. I got into SF4 at it’s release and took to Vega/claw immediately. About 8 months ago, I discovered a small arcade scene here (San Jose, CA). I just thought I’d comment in case anyone’s curious what a player that hasn’t had his perceptions influenced by SF2/ST/etc (ie a newbie =]) thought.
What I’d like to see:
Some way to get out of being cornered and pummled (like by balrog/boxer). I don’t want invincibility frames on scarlet terror necessarily- I’d really just like some way of getting AWAY!
Fix the screen scrolling bug
Make a LP sky high claw actually go up high at a fixed height, all the time, regardless of how close to the edge of the screen I am. I want this for mindgames. =] It’s a little annoying that if I’m close to the edge of the screen and do a LP Sky high claw, he will bounce off the wall low and attack at the same height as a HP sky high claw. In other words, LP/MP/HP sky high claw doesn’t currently let you select height of the attack properly, it seems to get nullified depending on the distance you stand from the edge of the screen.
Personally, I find Blanka is an annoying matchup (I didn’t realize you could sweep blanka balls to punish, I’ll have to try that out… but still). Some token tool against blanka would be nice. Maybe EX-sky high claw could go through blanka-balls like others have suggested.
That’s actually what I started thinking, except I was thinking that sky high claw to the wall could be invulnerable, since that’s what I’d really want to do to “get away” when cornered. Jump to the wall with invulnerability, slice through my opponent, and end up all the way on the other side of the screen and AWAY FROM THAT DAMNED CORNER. =]
Edit: Also, is it just me, or is SHC not used much? Maybe if it had invuln startup frames and FBA didn’t, it’d get used more (if only as an escape tool)?
As for SHC, the EX version is pretty good, goes through a lot of things. It’s the normal one that’s horrible. It’s stupid cause when you get a clean hit on your opponent, Vega has a long ass recovery. So once you get a hit in, he bounces on the floor a bit due to recoil, leaving yourself open to either a combo, or an opponent’s ultra.
So to compensate, how about giving a semi-controllable Ultra? ie. You do the Ultra, then press LP for close range dive, MP for medium, or HP or nothing for far. Even two ranges would be good.
It don’t think it would be OP, and it would actually give opponents a reason to respect his Ultra.
EX Barcelona with invul frames would be completely overpowered
“hey, I’ll use a 200 damage move that’s invincible on my wakeup and even if you block it I get out of jail free (against certain characters)”
at least gen’s doesn’t pick people up the second he leaves the ground. there’s no reason to buff EX FBA. It’s the one of Vega moves that actually works totally and completely efficiently. Outside of c. strong it’s his best move. Buffing that would dilute his gameplay into fishing for fullscreen EX FBAs which I already do enough these days. Definite no to that one. You could even go through fireballs doing that. Why even use EX SHC?
Still playing Vega, still doing well, still don’t think he needs invincibility. Buff the backdash, buff the c. fierce’s hitbox, problems are for the most part solved. Buff the flip for extra flavor, or just buff move and walk speed all around so Vega can have an easier time keeping people away.
I was actually thinking about increasing blockstun on his sweep. It is an amazing punish tool as it is thanks to its great range and decent speed, but it really is useless to incorporate into footsies. Outside of option selecting with it to punish backdashes (i’m pretty sure you could even use cosmic heel instead, never tested this) it’s usually a recipe for getting owned. If it gets blocked you’re, at best, at 0+/- frames, and against someone with a 3 frame jab, you’ve now put yourself exactly where they want you to be. If the block stun was increased so that using it at max range was say, +2 on block, you could use it to the same effect Piece of Mercury is supposed to be used for but, much more appropriate for footsies instead of just meaties on someone else’s wakeup. Also, this way Vega would have another legitimate way of getting in instead of just relying on his jump in and focusing like he does now.
I’ve been thinking about how people want piece of mercury to be an overhead. It would be a very unique overhead, since it can hit from about 1/3 to almost half screen. For awhile I thought it might be a little overpowered for that reason, but it is not comboable, leaves him at frame disadvantage on block, and does a pokes worth of damage, so it wouldn’t be to huge a threat. It would probably fit his game really well. It would be a really unique poke that only he is really capable of, and would help him a lot with his pressure game and footsies, since holding downback and waiting to tech wouldn’t be the only things an opponent really needed to worry about.
I know a lot of people don’t need convincing on it and it is a popular idea. I just wanted to post up my thoughts about it over the past few weeks. It would really be an amazing and smart buff. Possibly just what he needs.
And yes, EX FBA would be ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. That attack is already amazing, bordering on one of the best moves in the entire game.
Also, Jozhear, I have really come over to your side of the Vega arguement. I play Vega because I have more fun playing him than absolutely any other character and I think he is great the way he is. But I still feel that he needs to be able to take advantage of the games system in the same way that other characters can. Comeback potential and the ability to do at least 40% damage reliably when he has all of his resources (Claw/Meter/Ultra) is a fundamental part of the game. The engine was built for comebacks, and Vega shouldn’t be left out of that.
Something simple like Focus Cancel out of Roll into Ultra would be a very reasonable request. It is comboable off a jab, takes a lot of meter, and is still hard to do, but would give him a way to get the damage he needs when he has the opportunity. I realize he can do it now, but only off of counter hit, which is not reliable and it is still a 1 frame link.
And I still want him to have some invincibility on ST, but I think we will just have to agree to disagree on that. :wgrin:
Also, I would really like his Focus Attack to hit to the end of his claw. I think it might not now because each characters focus attack acts as a unique attack, and they might not have wanted to make his modifiable with the claw.
EX FBA: It would be one of the best moves if you removed the random fail
Jozhear, I think you’re right about his sweep. It may be a good long range punisher, but other than that I think it sucks. I know priority does not technically exist, but his sweep is one of the lowest priority sweeps in the game. I’ve seen him start it up before the opponent starts up their low roundhouse and Vega’s loses every time. More block stun would balance this weakness, or just make it active sooner.
I also wish BHC and EX SHC were always invulnerable to projectiles. I think it sucks you can go for a EX SHC cross-up and if your opponent fireballs at you, you still get to hit them clean but then you get hit by the projectile afterwards. That’s garbage.
Evasion flips should be better OR SHC (non EX) should start up faster and land a safe distance away… I feel like Vega’s design was a fly… one that annoys the hell out of you but you just can’t swat because it’s too fast… Only doing damage little by little but that’s okay because you can’t swat him. But instead what we got was a fly that can’t do damage and is very easily pinned down… and then swatted unmercifully. :sad:
Overall, if his wake-up game doesn’t get better in Super, please make him much faster so he is a hard mofo to catch…
As what everyone else is saying EX FBA with invincibility would be too strong. Do you know how easy you could run the clock sitting on 2 stocks of meter and an invincible EX FBA?
That’s because if your opponent blocks it you’re going to get insta-punished. Period.
If you actually hit your opponent with it, they have enough time to sit down to tea and crumpets, comment on the current fiscal state of affairs around the world, politely wipe their mouths of crumbs, and punish you anyways.
Since when could Vega kara TK?
The range of Piece of ShitMercury is hardly 1/3 the screen, let alone “almost half”. Cosmic Heel reaches pretty far though.
PoM just needs to be overhead, as many people have already said.
Let’s not kid ourselves. EX FBA is good. It’s not shit. It’s not bad. It’s not great. It’s not fantastic. Moreover, it certainly isn’t one of the best moves of the game. It’s just good. Maybe having all your other tools being almost worthless makes EX FBA appear as a godsend in contrast, but I wouldn’t put it anywhere near the best move of the game.
If EX SHC was always invulnerable to FB’s when you’re trying to cross up with it, then it would be too strong for its purpose. Yeah I get hit by FB’s when going for cross ups too and it sucks that your opponent got a lucky guess, but it should stay the way it is. If it’s the way you described, then FB’s would be 100% punishable no matter where Vega was on the screen (You’d reach them far too quickly). If any change were to happen, it just just be that it doesn’t get stuffed on startup by EVERYTHING. I’ve tried to use it to escape pressure and just get thrown or jabbed out of it. Yay. Same goes for Ultra btw. Seeing the first few frames of Vega actually leaping for the wall then getting smacked out of it is plain silly.
Now I come to this thread to comment every now and then, and I say pretty much the same thing every time.
Invlun on ST* (preferably l.st so it isn’t spammable and requires timing to properly reverse)
Faster walk speed
Fix Ultra so it doesn’t miss in the STUPIDEST situations (try to punished Kens whiffed Ultra with yours too soon and you go sailing over his head).
Maybe make it comboable if it isn’t buffed in other ways, or if Ultra 2 doesn’t combo.
*Vega doesn’t need more ways to burn valuable meter for a tool that should just work (note the italics of just work).
Voila.
I find it ludicrous people don’t want some invincibility frames on a non-ex ST - and some want ZERO invulns at all! So long as Vega remains without invincibility, he will be subjected to being strapped down and molested by Bikers and Boxers in back alley’s as stress relief before the REAL fighters take stage in Metro Manilla, and then diddled again by the winner after the fight is done. That is what Vega is right now. He is a pretty boy being passed around for all the men to have a piece of.
tl;dr
No one is afraid of walking up to Vega point blank and wailing on him. No wakeup game = not suitable for competition. “No wakeup game” is not being used as a hyperbole in the prior sentence.
that’s been my point all along, and contrary to what you might think, the problem isn’t the fact that he has no invincibility, the problem is he doesn’t have sufficiently powerful enough zoning tools that when people want to get in, they actually have to take risks, ala honda, dhalsim, sagat, etc. All Vega can do on defense for the most part is run away, then you’re in a corner, and then what? ST. hk and c. fp trade or whiff all the time on airborn opponents as do most of Vega’s air-to-air options.
as people have stated, dhalsim’s teleport is hardly viable in a wakeup situation. arguably, his wakeup game is as bad as vega’s, so why does dhalsim get no flak about it when Vega does all the time? the answer; cause he can actually keep people from getting to him. They tried to balance it by giving Vega a more solid rushdown game but that isn’t enough to balance his defensive shortcomings. Why bother diluting Vega and giving him an invincible move, that won’t do anything about cross ups anyway (hence, in the big picture, meaning he will still get fucked over on wakeup) when an EX or normal ST will still beat throws, slow attacks, depending on frame +/-, and early attempts at a jump-in? it will hardly do shit to his game outside of getting him out of equally situational scenarios that his normal ST in this iteration already does. Totally redundant and really less of a insta-fix for vega than you guys think. At this point, an ST that would effectilvely beat any anti-air would still be unnecessary because you can just backdash the jump in like you would normally now. All it does is give him a shoryuken that he doesn’t even need. Beef up his normals and air-to-airs, or even the range and hitbox on ST so that it “scoops” more, and Vega will be totally fine. IT’s a legitimate trade off if he gets raped up close if he’s ACTUALLY hard to catch in the first place. And the thing is, he isn’t, so it just does’t work for him.
Why even say “no wake up game = no competition” when the actual problems are an uncomboable and thoroughly situational ultra, garbage super, no REALLY strong combos, no reliable hit confirm into ST unless its EX and on certain characters, no way to start offense outside of a jump in, the equipment, of course. Change those things and expand on SF4 Vega (read: not sf2) instead of trying to slap a fix on him that really won’t do SHIT to move him up a noticeable amount in tiers. I used to think that invinc. on ST would be OP but now I’m convinced it would help him very, very little. At least Balrog can keep a downcharge to let out his invincible move, but Vega still has to hold a back charge.
Piece of Mercury hits from pretty far away. You just have to make sure you are hitting directly with his heel, and the hit box is a bit farther out than his foot.
I don’t think your familiar with how good EX FBA is.
yeah… I’m with Brento on this one. Full screen projectile that confirms into a 200 damage combo and is safe against many characters if blocked? It has so many uses it’s stupid. Beats jump outs, meaty on someone elses wakeup and it does so much damage, it’s the easiest of vega’s moves to combo into… Plus the ex FBS on the way down makes it so people can’t just focus their way out, and the mix up is that much stronger. EX FBA is strong because it is one of the most unique moves in the game. It literally does things no other move can, for that reason I’d say it is one of the best moves.
I agree with Jozhear here.
It’s definitely true that Vega needs more strengths to make up for the weaknesses he has now. Abels and Dhalsims wakeupgames are just as bad as Vega’s, but those two have tools to make up for it. E.g Abel has a vortex at his disposal once he gets in, and he has strong mixup. Dhalsim also does well against strong characters because his zoning tools are so great. What’s more, those two have a viable Ultra at their disposal.
Right now, he has to rely on opponents making fatal mistakes such as repeatedly throwing fireballs when Ultra stock is ready or low level mindgames such as “you did this and I knew it, so I Ultra’d”. Given Vega’s lack of defensive options atm, this is a high risk, low reward. Especially against characters like Sagat, a fuckup could lead to your death instantly while only doing mediocre damage when it actually hits.
The thing with Vega’s pokes right now is: Either they blow, or they’re really good. Things like his crouching lights or medium attacks are just fine. His st.mk is also okay (why not 6 or 7 frames instead of 8?).
But st.hp IMO needs a range and slight speed increase, to keep his zoning against fireball characters interesting. Although st.lk is already good, I wouldn’t mind if it became some sort of Dhalsim back+(hk? mk? which one is it?), as someone already suggested. Increasing active frames on j.hk would also be a nice small addition.
As Jozhear said, something has to be done with his slide as well.
In ST, Vega’s high damage options were his super and izunas. Vega has nothing like that atm, so I would gladly like to see some damage increase on Izuna or some way to do slightly more damage, or as Brento said, pull out a clutch 40% in a tough situation, even when wasting all of his super. Dhalsim has an option similiar to this (Ultra-> Super).
EDIT: And for gods sake, make him faster. Especially with the console characters, Capcom was literally pulling excellent walk, dash and jump speeds out of their asses so Vega doesn’t stand out anymore at all. This really bugs me. Walking back speed should be 10 as well, imo.