Yeah we already saw that at Evo, iirc Momochi with whoever + Choco with Boxer tap.
Option selecting alpha counters, the point being that you only get counter on block and never launcher on no block because it’s usually badly unsafe. If you have a safe on block special move, while blocking you can input that motion with hp+hk. If the opponent keeps you in blockstun, you get an alpha counter; if they don’t, you get your special move because special moves take input priority over launchers. Alternatively, you can input back back+hp+hk. If blockstun, alpha counter; if no blockstun, backdash.
Or my favorite after playing characters that abuse the mix up between two hitting jump in and empty jump low (Hi chun li): Block high and input Hk+HP when you should be hit by the jump in. The two hitting jump in requires you to stand block longer than normal to avoid getting hit, and this makes you open to empty jump lows (At least online, but I guess it can be tricky too).
Need to AC those Asuka strings, they scream “PLEASE AC ME”, AC really shuts down ASuka’s game, it’s depressing
Also that j.hk whiff setup is cool, I have a similar one but I do it early rather than late and I see he gets in a nice position to do f+mp or cr.lk, but f+mp hits later than my setup.
i’ll fess up. I have been working on stuff but only have said i have done one OS. This is with Lili, no surprise here folks. I was thinking of ways that she could prevent rolls and os into something nasty. I’ve been trying to work osing ex feisty rabbit and having it os or auto correct into ex sunflower lance. Not only would it cause a 50/50 mix up but she could not be punished for it afterward. So pretty much it homes to them and forces a mix up situation and makes the opponent think twice about rolling away. The only issue i have with it is that negative edge is holding me back. For the os to even work lili has to walk forward and input qcb+kk. But when i do that it gives me ex angel knee. I’m sure i can figure it out but yeah that’s kinda what i’ve been up to. There is also the os auto correct counter with lili. Works best with an opponent empty jumping to the opposite side or rolling. Just qcf+p but the game will read it as a counter. Lili has a lot of risky os. The only os i think is viable in terms of practicality is her os and auto dive kick that turns into divine step. If the opponent rolls away the dive turns into divine step and gets her away from her opponent. Its used best when you’re trying to pressure your opponent who is down on life and they roll away and you pretty much give yourself space.
I agree with you dave…we should be more vocal about os…i should def put it up on the lili boards…=(
If you play in Ranked, even on Xbox there are mostly Ryus and Kens with the occasional Kazuya or Hugo. I play for the few matches I get with the other characters.
And about Alpha Counters, they’re amazing against characters with long chains in general. You just have to be careful not to get Jebaited and whiff a raw launcher.
It’s like people don’t even want to bother to learn anyone else. That bothers me. There’s like 50 characters in the game and only 4 get used by like 70-80% of the online community.
You should never have to whiff a raw launcher when looking to alpha counter a block chain. If you’re in footsies and wanna get crazy trying to blow through a low, fine, but that’s different.
True, but no one’s reactions are perfect, and AC is F+Fierce+Roundhouse, which produces a launcher if you aren’t in blockstun for whatever reason (mis-timed, or as I said, baited). I’ve gotten some “mysterious” raw launchers from opponents after doing the first two hits of Snake Blade with Ogre. I suspected it was an AC attempt, but heck, you might be right, although the last hit of Snake Blade is a High anyway.
And I’ve definitely tried to AC before myself and gotten launcher. Which sucks, by the way.
OS Launcher is certainly something that’s seeing use, but perhaps not as much as it should, Against empty jump lows (which show up far too often) you can OS to beat them for free by simply holding back to block and hitting raw launch after you expect the jump attack to hit. If they hit a button in the air, you block, and if they empty jump low, you raw launch. Sure, this can be baited with an empty jump mid or and empty jump block, but this won’t show up outside of a few characters (Ryan Hunter tells me Steve is one of these) or match-specific meta game.
You can also OS Alpha Counters with various things, which relates to what Ultradavid was saying.
I’m more inclined to agree with Links about this if we are talking about simply trying to AC pressure strings. Many characters can bring a lot of variety with pressure strings in terms of blockstun and standing/crouching attacks, particularly if they have a good standing jab, and it’s very possible to get your AC baited if you are doing it predictably. Slower ACs, such as Law or Jack, can be baited hard with jabs that recover fast enough to block the AC in time, and allow for a punish/happy birthday.
Fortunately, you can largely avoid the issue if you have safe-on-block specials that end with a forwards motion. The input for special moves takes priority over raw launchers, so it’s often a good option to OS your AC with a special move in case they don’t push a button.
eg. Ken can AC - os - HP DP by inputting :f::d::df::f: :hp: + :hk: and then attempting to tag. If they attack as expected, you get an AC and tag for good damage. If they stop attacking, you get a 3hit dp that you made safe by tagging.
edit: Looks like Ultradavid posted some similar stuff above, but I could have sworn this wasn’t there when I wrote this up. Oh well, I go into a bit more detail, so I will leave things as is for now.
What would you call peak hours? (sounds kinda jerky but I’m not being that way, haha)
I was on around 700-800 PM Central Time, I’m in Indiana so at 700 it’d be 500 in Cali and 800 in NY
Course it was a Monday, I wasn’t on it today it was DOA5 day, tomorrow is SF X Tk day or maybe Assassins Creed FFA Deathmatch – 3 is coming out soon gotta brush up. haha.
I think the Gief OS being the best I’ve seen is more a result of the character+result involved and less with the amount of time that’s been devoted to experimenting with these types of things. Not that the game has been explored as much as it could, by any means, but let’s put it this way: in a best case scenario, can you imagine a post-KD OS that created a better result than Zangief guaranteed in your face with frame advantage for no meter? You couldn’t even imagine a better if you tried OS, lol.
With that said, it’s not surprising that more characters can’t exploit these OSes as hard as Gief can. Like I said in my original post, it takes a very specific kind of move that will create a result that’s worthwhile to even be option selected. At the very least, just to work, it has to have a decent number of activate frames, and move you forward. I also consider that generating frame advantage is a requirement, because if the move you’re OSing leaves you at frame disadvantage, that’s not really exciting, lol. Following their tech option only to put yourself at frame disadvantage is basically useless, except in a few specific cases, like against Jack, or similar characters with significantly slow normals.
So with those parameters in mind, look at the examples you listed. Granted, I know you were quite literally just naming ideas off the top of your head, but even so, you can see how finicky the requirements are.
Spiral Arrow: This one could actually have potential since it’s possible to meaty enough to be positive on block, and if it’s like SF4, with a meaty hit, you’d be able to juggle.
Machine Gun Blow: Negative on block. Could be used for switch canceling regardless, though.
Run (Guy): I guess you could Run -> Stop, but his walk speed is good enough that you could just walk up to them on wakeup after reacting to their tech option and accomplish more or less the same thing.
Neckbreaker: Might have potential. The frame data implies that the HP version could be as much as +7 or +8 on block when meaty, but I kind of thought there was something specific with neckbreaker where the recovery frames are tied to the block animation due to it being a hit-grab, so being meaty has no effect on the block advantage. Really not sure about that, though, I could be way off.
Command Dash (Ibuki): People do already use this.
Swift Step/Explosion: From my testing a while ago, it’s too slow to work properly. I mean, it would work, it just wouldn’t be anywhere near meaty, and they could easily react and just Jab you out of it.
Ken Tatsu: Crouchable.
Shaolin Spinkicks: Negative on block. Like Machine Gun Blow, could be useful just for switch canceling.
Tiger Knee: Could have potential. Also, like the Spiral Arrow, this one could potentially lead to midscreen juggles off a meaty hit.
The thing is, when you say “think about how many characters have attacks that move them forward and have lots of active frames,” you have to also realize that as a rule of thumb, when a move advances you forward, it is going to be negative on block. You’re gonna need some serious active frames to turn what is probably a significant disadvantage into an advantage. Then, combine that with requiring this move’s startup to fall within a certain range (about 12-18) to even be meaty, and suddenly you have a pretty tall order to fill.
Edit: I think that OS dashing and OS SJs are much more likely to be found useful for more general situations. The thing is, there’s no where near the power level of something like the Gief OS.
For those who have fought my Alisa/Asuka team, I just have a quick question. On a scale of 1-10 of annoying, 1 being a player away from their stick for the entire match, and 10 being the scrubbiest Cody to ever exist, how annoying is my team to fight?
I think you guys are kinda missing what UD was saying. He was saying that you really shouldn’t get a Launcher when you’re attempting to AC (unless you want to, for some reason), because you should be OSing your AC. I tend to agree with that. There isn’t really much room for argument, in my eyes. Even if you don’t have a special that ends in forward that lends itself to being OSed, he mentions how any character can do something like b, b, f+HP+HK to OS a backdash before the AC.
The only issue/potential argument I can see is simply the awkwardness of the input for this backdash OS. ACing things is alerady pretty tight timing, so I could see backloading your attempt with a dash input beforehand could potentially be an issue. However, I think this could just be one of those things you’d get used to over time, and it’s just a matter of not being lazy. For now, I’m pretty lazy though, lmao.
You’re about a 4 or 5 as far as annoying. I mean the biggest annoyance about your team is the fact that I am forced to burn meter on AC’s anytime your Alisa decides to attack Xiaoyu since her normals are total garbage. I guess if I had Lili on point instead it wouldn’t be so bad since I could reversal those chainsaws but the chip damage is way too great for me to ignore when I’m Xiao. I don’t mind if you run away from me all day since I enjoy the thrill of the chase when I finally catch up and put the beatdown on my opponent.
Asuka is never really too annoying since I play her as well and know most of her tricks (didn’t know about that whiff J. HK trick until today…) but I have her downloaded. I play Asuka on the side as well so I already have an idea of how safe/unsafe her strings are. Julia is the only character I find that is a 10 on the annoying list, Heihachi is a 7 and Cammy is about an 8 or 9 because that jab pressure baiting out my cr. hk’s to whiff into an ABC…man ABC launcher derp infuriates me more than anything in game.
I guess I need to re-evaluate my team, while they do nice damage together, they both have pretty poor AC options, neither are tag cancellable into a combo (Julia/Asuka), I noticed this in my set vs Robofobe.
This makes me lean towards my old team of Sakura/Asuka, only thing that’s holding me back is ability to DP AA/mash reversal for 300-400 damage with Julia/Asuka.
