St hk is slow, 11 frames startup. And Cr hp is only situational for some ranges. Having to actually jump to anti air them, is the very definition of a bad anti air game. You want your anti air tools to be good enough that it takes least focus off the ground game.
cr.hp is bad, instant air throw is Vegas best for deep. St.hk for far, but has to be early.
Chun doesn’t have to use air throw, like ever. B.hk and st.lk cover every arc possible ahead and above of her.
Braindead doesn’t invalidate why things are good, being able to react to a smaller option pool from a stimulus makes your output more consistent. Flooding your brain with options is bad, character could have 6 absolutely amazing AA options but if a person can’t dictate use of those effectively in a match, doesn’t really matter as much.
His AA reward payoff is high, but his AA output is bad.
EDIT**
I agree that it’s not AAs that are keeping him bad, his VTs are garbage and his frame data is nonsensical, and Rolling Crystal STILL has issues with drop-outs and pushes too far out on hit. Claw normals are also just trash for no apparent reason, claw cr.mp still doesn’t have a cancel, Buster Claw has the worlds biggest early hurtbox and retracting hurtbox. EX Barca doesn’t hit crouchers still.
Vega always gonna be able to do random slides and dash - throw so that’s good I guess.
I mean that’s pretty much what i said. I don’t actually use his c.hp but it works when i hit it. Also s.hk is slow on paper but I can’t say it’s ever felt that way. Like I’ve been in a match and thought “wow i need this button to be faster”. Not saying yall are wrong just my personal experience.
But really this entire conversation is semantics; my primary point was that Vega is not bad because of sketchy AA’s. But for some reason it’s the first thing people always say is wrong with him.
Oops missed the edit.
Lotta people don’t play Vega and jump on meme bandwagon of him being bad. He has a lot of strong shit coupled with a stupid amount of inconsistency and really poor VT output.
I mean he is bad, but if he got a real VT he would be immediately mid-tier at worst. That’s my only problem with the character.
I can play around all his other flaws. But I cannot play around his shit VT when Rog, Ibuki, or even G can instantly swing the match when they hit HP+HK. Rose is basically an EX move and Counter is a meme VT only preferable because he gets a VTC like the rest of the cast and strikes a cool pose lol.
11 Frames is slow, i mean that’s just a fact. In regards to why he’s seen as low tier people first jump on his poor defence (v reversal, ca no invinc). There’s like a 21 page doc someone made writing about the char’s weaknesses.
All VTCs should operate like Falke VT2 and Vega VT1 tbh, VTCs are worse than the VTs themselves a lot of times because it enables retarded offensive options. G EX Dash Low xx VTC, Sakura crmk xx EX.Hado xx VTC, Cody EX.Zonk xx VTC
Half of those situations are scarier than the actual fucking VT because you have no conceivable way to play around them in neutral. You just have to let it happen.
I hate Falkes VT2 with a fiery passion so I’m ok with them not being like her VT2
1 Like
VT2 is fun in Battle Lounge.
It’s slow but situationally adequate.
Like if you are trying to defend against a close jump in yes its slow. But that isn’t where you are using it anyway. S.hk is for far jumps at the range where they are too far to dash in and can’t properly contest his buttons. In this situation its super easy to AA with it because jumpin in is the most obvious approach option. Now of course they should just stay grounded and walk in, but Vega can more easily manipulate his spacing than pretty much anyone so its very easy to bait people into jumping into it. Also there is the huge elephant in the room, being that landing it can lead to a gorgillion damage by AA standards. It can be made maybe one or two frames faster before it starts to get dumb.
Yes it’s slow and if that is your only point hey you’re right. But that is at best only half of the story.
Source: I literally main this character and have more experience with him than any of the regulars here.
In my experience V trigger was one of his stronger points. You get ways to punish fireballs, jump ins, extend damage of combos or get a damage dump with a hit confirm. You have to work to make these happen, but once you got that bar full the opponent will be more reluctant to take risks, so there’s a psychological boost there too.
My biggest gripe is his weak damage for punishes. With claw anything under 8 frames you’ll have to use a light button into ct or ase, but ase can whiff. Burning a bar to get ex Barcelona punish requires opponent to be standing. Also the massive hurtboxes on the tail end of your claws. Easy to cc. Meaty buttons also have massive pushback. And a plethora of other issues. I’ve stopped playing the char so i saved myself a heap of anxiety.
His VT is bad, neither open up big damage, his VT2 is the worst parry esque VT in the game, and Rose having all that utility doesn’t mean shit because it’s a one time use and fizzles instantly.
I think that’s what makes the game retarded. I can neutral jump full combo a zeku player and they will quite literally wake up and do slide X 2 trigger cancel.
There’s no punish on earth that can stop trigger cancels.
Also as a base I like Sakura’s trigger. I like that it has to be hit confirmed.
The trigger system is the worst designed system out of every mechanic in every street fighter. It doesn’t even follow its own rules ( use v skill to build v meter)
Lol what? His V-kit is easily bottom 5, probably bottom 3.
Stop hitting the pipe fam.
Please disagree so I can drop a master thesis on why you are wrong.
Saks trigger combos or VTC options? Cause yeah her VT itself is fairly tame, shits out damage like no other but it isn’t making her neutral this unstoppable force for 20 seconds.
Cause the EX Hado xx VTC buff she got in S4 has given her the same braindead VTC options a lot of others have.
But yeah, you literally cannot deter people from their enabling options for VTC, they open an easy gateway for a comeback so conditioning people to stop it is nigh impossible.
EDIT**
Me and a friend got bored out of our minds earlier in a lobby and decided to play without VTs, the game is actually really slow without them lmao. Also much more organic. Probably due to the reasons above, no VTs mean no forced VTC aggression at the midgame. It’s all contextual play from start to finish.
Take it easy, my dude. I knew i was gonna get hit by the it’s bad argument, had that happen before. Which is why i specifically said my experience.
Funny enough I had a friend on SF4 and we agreed to play without focus. Easily the most fun I’ve had in that game.
I’ve actually contemplated using a system where by I don’t
- press any buttons if they have meter
- Press any buttons if they have V trigger
Then seeing what happens.
Saks V2 I just like that it’s not a free hit. You don’t get to Balrog me to death on block and hit just because you got a red bar.
Never press any buttons ever. Just make the opponent fall asleep
2 Likes
Yeah, when I see Bison with VT I just acknowledge that I HAVE to block slide xx VTC, it’s not possible to play around.
You could name an action for every character that they’re going to do regardless of what you’re doing, how many times you bait it, regardless of your spacing, because of how enabling VTCs are.
1 Like