Ignoring the context around a button is dumb though this is the real world.
Like are you really going to sit here and say Kolin’s c.mk does more work than Karin’s?
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Yeah but cheap to me is that you didn’t pay anything for it - you just let it roll and it worked out for you.
If it takes skill it’s not cheap. At least in my book.
Cheap would be Zeku st.fierce, where you can throw it out - recognise if it hits , then cancel a move.
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Wan Fu. He is the OG. Either big sword Wan Fu or big stone pillar Wan Fu would work.
Just give me Wan Fu!
MSGA
Make sagat great again.
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No but is the cheap move the cMK or JFT?
Well you can’t just throw around raw JFTs and make them cheap, so c.MK would be cheap when added with the JFT. Meaning you can’t walk backwards…meaning cheap c.MK.
Cheap to me is anything my opponent can do to turn their brain off and the strategies still good.
It can be a mixup a matchup a poke or damage or one of a million other things.
Going by your logic, then ex dr isn’t cheap because it has a cost to it. But hey, maybe you think ex dr is just a perfectly fine move with no balance issues.
Payment doesn’t matter, utility is all.
c.MK JFT definitely requires execution, but it’s one of those things that once you have the execution it becomes cheap and slows the opponent down. Once you’re fighting a Karin that really knows how to use her c.MK you pretty much have to outfootsie her before she walks within the range of it. Otherwise once she’s in that range there’s no more walking backwards for you.
This is why characters with big buttons/great zoning do better vs her as they can still detract her from using the c.MK after she walks in. The other cast is kinda cooked once they’ve let her walk into c.MK range.
Karin’s c.MK is like the antithesis to what they were trying to do with c.MK’s in this game, but better to have a bit of variety than just all the c.MK’s be for slight low checking or VTC.
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Yep, agreed.
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Yeah even from the outside the DBFZ patches seem pretty solid. This one is a big shake up but they usually make sense in general and they at least seem to be trying to keep things fresh and not let the character meta stagnate.
Glad I didn’t play it in a way. Two of the chars I would have picked have not had a great time over the life of the game’s balance and this patch would have been one last shin kick.
Also regarding Karin’s cr.MK that thing is beastly. Especially with how generous this game is with meter, she is usually walking around with a loaded shotgun.
I don’t think it is a matter of that being too good. I think it is the more “classic” SFV problem of that being an actually good tool that is rare-ish across the cast so most other chars are jealous at what she can get out of it (or just wishes they had a special cancelable cr.MK to begin with).
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Who at those?
I don’t think any character has come out of the patch nerfed?
Reminds me of Akuma’s air fireball in 3S.
It’s a strangely strong fireball in a game where normally they’re only kinda strong if you EX them. It covers a cheap angle, can be used to viably zone with and parry has almost no effect on it. Allowing Akuma to zone and control people in ways that the other cast can’t. Plus can also set up offense.
If Akuma didn’t have other weaknesses, the air fireball plus the rest of his toolset would easily have him top 3 easy.
The answer is neither in a vacuum but both in the real world.
I mean in the context of the discussion in doesn’t really matter because those tools always interact together. Looking at things in a vacuum doesn’t really benefit anyone or anything because it just leads to answers that are technically correct but don’t help you in the real world.
Like Sak has the best s.lk in the game because it’s a long reaching 4f that converts into her DP. Hypothetically if you took away combo into DP it would still technically be the best s.lk but nobody would really care.
Jin saying Kolin c.mk is the best in the game is missing the forest for trees.
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Oh so you did think I said her c.MK is the best c.MK in the game. That’s weird.
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Yeah and it was super confusing. Like lol what.
Miscommunication then my bad.
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Kolin cMK is really good, but worth noting. It’s also slow, any time she uses it in pressure, you could have plugged her.
Karin, not so much. But on block, it’s -4, so you are out.
Yeah well it’s not the best c.MK in the game, so yeah. Thought I explained it, but yeah.
Probably should have added Karin’s name in that post a couple more times to make it easier, but was generally explained.
I honestly don’t think we’ll get any characters until the end of EVO.
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The end of Evo? Might as well just say the end of time.
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Krillin and Fatty-fat Buu. I never end up gravitating towards high tier. 
From the outside they seemed to get either slight nerfs or generally not get many buffs. Not that I would have cared much, and of course if I played I’d understand the whole of the patch a lot better also.
Also not that I’m complaining either. Just musing from the cheap seats.