cba find it yourself
You can’t just drop technical knowledge like that and not back it up
That’s like me calling myself garbage and not providing the match footage as proof
I mean don’t believe me then I’m not gonna go outta my way to find the tweet xd
1 Like
Never said I don’t believe you I was just interested in seeing the original tweet since I haven’t heard of it until you brought it up
And I can’t find it on that guy’s twitter so far
I’ll add a little bit to this because there is an old thread that got ignored and a concept from a different game that kind of applies to what we’ve discussing. A couple of years back a dude made a really interesting thread about the frame data of SF5. He pointed out that a lot of moves in this game leave you at -2. In his view, this meant that having 5 frame moves was really important since they were practically 3 frame moves in those situations. I want to say that his point was more of 5 frame mediums since, tied with the priority system, having a 5 frame medium that left you plus after that meant you got to really take back those situations.
Thread to got trolled to hell and back even though it was interesting and eventually got closed.
So that’s the thread, what’s the other game? Go. Go is a game played with stones where you try to capture territory and enemy stones. Became a big deal because Facebook’s Alpha Go team was able to body the ever living shit out of a human being at it. Game is complex as tits so it is a massive breakthrough in A.I. learning. Game is simple enough with placing stones, but the important thing is the shape you make with them.
Over the centuries, certain board patterns have arisen so many times that the exchanges are resolved the same way every time. All of these exchanges won’t normally be played in a different way because it involves a high risk of losing an advantage. There are dozens of these that you need to learn to start getting past the “I just pick things up and put them down” stage of the game.
What would an old thread and a board game from Asia have to do with this discussion?
The thing about SF5 is that proximity and -2 state is a constant known quantity in this game. So after a -2, both players know certain things are going to be played a certain way and then we’re back far enough apart. Let’s take Rashid pressuring Cammy in the corner:
Rashid does a blockstring of st.lk, st.lp xx LP mixer. Cammy is cornered, and now Rashid is -2.
Cammy can push rashid back with cr.mp, st.jab, st.mp and be at +3 at the end of that having pushed him far away.
The thing that’s interesting is that this is a situation which will be common constantly in this game. If you want to get better, studying these exchanges is should be a top priority but, I digress. Because this is so common, EX DPs become key in them. Once the -2 happens then the opponent should be on the guessing end normal or throw. You have late tech and other stuff as actions but that’s the basic gist.
Once you force the situation with meter though, what would be a normal resolution to it, the aforementioned interaction, the EX DP moves the advantage back on the person who is technically negative by making the opponent hesitate on it. If you hesitate though, you gave back the advantage. What’s really changed from other SFs, is that this situation is a lot easier to reproduce into the same decision making than before.
Old situations that come up a lot are things like Chun has you cornered and is in Kara throw range, same with Rog in ST, or Akuma’s silliness in Vanilla SF4. In 5, a large amount of the cast has a way to end up at -2 in front of an opponent and a good chunk of those characters have EX reversals.
Whether or not you want to take advantage of the psychology of the situation based on your character its up to you. Regardless of a players choice on the matter, a large amount of the cast can force the -2 mix up in a way that wasn’t really a workable tool in previous games. While conceptually it exists in basically every 2D game, this one creates an environment where it is repeatable multiple times a round.
So yeah, its kind of an SF5 thing.
5 Likes
EX DP after blocked stHK? Your friend is a gentleman for at least having the dignity of burning meter.
I’d rather not count the amount of times I got hit by regular DPs after minus moves and it tilted me completely.
2 Likes
Using EX Reversals on -2 Normals is definitely a big core of the entire game. My win rate skyrocketed when I stopped trying to be a prude about it, and just let EX Psycho Uppers rip on negative normals. You simply cannot be above these types of things in SFV, otherwise you’re just giving yourself an unnecessary handicap.
4 Likes
When I was playing Necalli, I used to wake up with lp DP.
Its 3 frames.
what you gonna do about it?
I think my stick is dying, well my PCB. FUCK. I’m done with making my own sticks, I’m going back to Hori Senpai
Edit: Also on PC, if you remove your stick and plug it back in during a match I’m pretty sure that shit causes a lag spike for a few seconds lol. Could just be my custom made stick since it’s not fully supported by Capcom/SFV. My PCB is one of those all purpose ebay ones for like 15 bucks.
Ed’s normals aren’t that good for abusing the minus 2. Most of his normals are plus on block any way and his only minus normals are either cancelable or are optimally used from too far away for the opponent to bother pressing back for a mind game.
The reason people are afraid of minus 2 into EX is because its generally done with moves that put them near point blank in the opponent’s face (IE Urien, Rashid, Akuma’s f+HP which was better when plus 1 any way). This way you are forced into a situation where if you dont wait and block the EX DP they are in throw range and get the standard frame trap/shimmy mix up that people are scared of in this game.
Ed can’t do s.HK to EX upper because that’s minus 4 and has a large range where it’s punishable vs most of the cast. You could do absolute max range s.HK into EX upper but you’re doing it from a range where you can’t threaten a throw any ways so no one good is going to bite on that unless they’re on their last bit of health and are that desperate. That leaves you with s.HP, but s.HP is like 11 frame start up so that’s pretty damn slow to use within throw range and optimally is a better hit box from further away.
Most of the Eds I fight tend to just use EX PU during their plus frames because it can “extend” their plus frames and blow up throws techs without shimmying. Doing it during any of his minus frame stuff that isn’t V Skill or Psycho knuckle based is generally not worth bothering with.
…Yeah, I give up. DJ just proves that I have no point in being here since he understands all SFs better than I ever will. I’ll take the ultimate L here and just accept that I never know what I’m talking about.
1 Like
Day two of my Cody running his way to Master rank, gone from 14k to 18k in those two days. Not too bad.
Super Dia tomorrow maybe then gunning it for 25k.
5 Likes
With the people you’re playing against I’m sure doing EX PU on his minus normals probably works because they’ll just press at anything. Against anyone good though none of Ed’s minus normals are good for throwing within throw range so no one higher up in rank or places at tourneys is going to bite on long range safe minus.
Uncharged V Skill and Psycho knuckle are probably the best things to safe minus EX PU off of reliably, but both of those have a lot of start up so you have to play mind games to get to the mind games. Generally not as consistent as the fast minus 2 stuff that throws their body into your throw range.
1 Like
5f buffer is like the minimum for a lot of anime games any way. Certain games like Chaos Code have like 20 plus frame buffers.
Anime games aren’t link based
I think 2f buffer is enough.
Get hit by it the first 4-5 times then finally bait it and fail to punish?
I recently ran into two players that EX DP’d the fuck out of -2. One is a Gold player named VesTheNoob and blocked Orochi into EX DP 75% of the time is the backbone of his game plan.
And of course an Ed player that Psycho Upper’d all the time. -2, whiffed move, general neutral? PPP!!!
To the surprise of no one online players tend to be more nutty.
1 Like
Some have links in them to start or optimize certain grounded combos. They’re not necessarily devoid of links just not as required for every character as SF. It’s just 5f buffer in general for fighting games still isn’t much of a revelation. In most anime games there’s usually a couple characters that have to start their routes off links or you have characters like Mei Ling in Arcana Heart that have links for most of their combos.
Specifically to SFV there just aren’t enough combo routes on grounded bnbs to worry about the buffer being much shorter than it is. It would just make the routes harder for no real combo route/swag benefit. Better off just having a new SF game with an engine that better sets up freedom in grounded combos to worry about making the buffer any shorter. Making Necalli’s boring ass combos harder to do doesn’t really do anything great for the game player or spectator wise.
In V optimized stuff off hit confirms ideally requires your reactions to go along with the buffers like the one hit confirms and counter hit confirming so you dont commit to something minus on block that you dont want to.
hehehehehe
1 Like
I need to learn at once to not do SFV ranked when I get home this angry and stressed from work.
It never ends up well.
I have a long road to regain my points tomorrow. If I don’t get home from work wanting to kill someone.
In that case, I will just throw in assetto corsa and drive a slow car around my favourite circuits.
5 Likes
A nice relaxing drive is a great way to reduce stress.
1 Like