Oh yeah wasn’t viper top tier in vanilla?
I’d imagine that being her best version.
I always forget about Viper. Maybe it’s because her shit is so incongruent with everything else in the game.
Debatable. Her ultra version may be about as good. What she had in Vanilla was a more damaging ultra and her burn kicks had more frame advantage. Those are both very good for her. Her beta Ultra version has some good stuff + the stuff added in earlier versions like EX Burn Kick - Ultra combo. Vanilla is probably a little bit better just due to the combo to ultra damage being much higher and having her EX Seismo fully invincible 1-13F again instead of just strike invincible.
Vanilla = better comeback potential / slightly more derpfactor burn kicks.
Ultra = better combo damage outside of ultra / more ways to land ultra / better footsies / more varied wakeup thanks to DWU
I think Vanilla = pick if you are wolfkrone style. Ultra = pick if you are latif style. Both viable though I imagine in the long run the damage difference for Vanilla is just high enough to be stronger than the utilities added in later versions.
ive just unlocked Akuma in vanilla, was fooling in training … man what the hell with the damages lol give that version to someone like infiltration and watch the world end … its gonna be insane !
Rufus ? top 10 character, so he doesn’t count.
Zangief ? Snake Eyez is considered the best gief player in the world, yet he won 1 tourney, and even then Ultra David admitted the stars simply alined for him (no Sagat, no Seth, etc).
Chun Li ? did she won anything ? or you are reffering of infiltration counterpicking with her ?
Momochi was 4th place with Cody at Norcal, if I’m not mistaken. And he also couterpicked with Ken in that tourney.
Zeus won DtN, all my respects. But that tourney didn’t have any competition outside East coast.
Zangief already has an unwinnable match against sagat in v.2012, not much change here
Makoto has an even match against both Sagat and Akuma in v.2012. She has a better version in AE, or Ultra. I higly doubt the match will change that dramatically
Abel vs gief is also an even match. V./S. Abel are also strong.
S. Honda was highly competitive in Super. He was also much more improved back then. As a Honda mainer, I will gladly take the challenge
you’re right, zangief is still fucked against sagat (but even more so in vanilla).
every version of makoto will lose SO BADLY to vanilla sagat due to her gambles being higher risk and no reversal or low profile move vs TK traps. 2012 makoto is arguably stronger than AE due to the backthrow frame change / easy safejump and her dash not pushing opponents out as far as before. ultra is ??? right now but looking strong, still doesn’t have an answer to 700 damage gambles and advantage TK strings. oh yeah, and she loses to akuma right now even without dumb stuff like demon flip throw OS whatever. no throw invincible move, remember? jeez, and i bet her stupid fat hitbox will get s.hk looped like abel/sagat.
in vanilla, abel vs gief was just meat grinder, most people agreed it was 7-3 in gief’s favor.
s honda was indeed competitive in super, but the meta of that game wasn’t nearly as well developed as 2012. on top of that you didn’t address my point, which was that his worst matchup was even more lopsided then.
The issue I have with this balance discussion is that people are making it sound like remix will be some cluster fuck of broken match-ups against 90% of the cast and I simply don’t see this being the case. The variety of characters winning and placing top 8 at majors in remix (should it ever get to that point) will be no different then what were seeing now in 2012.
In 2012 we see that the top 10 characters are usually the ones placing high and winning majors. The mid tiers are at best winning counter picks but very rarely are they played from start to finish without a alternate on hand. The bottom tiers aren’t even in the picture at all so I have to ask what are we really missing out in terms of variety?
If remix consist of 10 top tiers with maybe 3 mid tiers who can compete decently enough, I don’t think its gonna be much different then what we have already seen in 2012 or what we will see in ultra. Someone like rose might never win a major in remix but I doubt she would in ultra as well…so I just think people are blowing this balance thing outta proportion.
tell me who the counterpick to vanilla akuma is
There probably isn’t one but it isn’t like the match is impossible to beat. In SF4 the meta game wasn’t fully developed and half the technology we see now didn’t exist back then. At the time vanilla was played the majority of the match-ups the top tiers had were only 6-4 and most of them are against characters who have improved since then. Sure it might suck for the bottom tiers and some mid tiers but like I said before it isn’t like they were doing anything special in 2012 anyways. Someone like hawk or sim is still getting their shit owned for free in 2012 by someone like akuma so it’s not like the dynamics are changing.
As I said before the experience is ultimately the same.
Ryu. That’s the closest you get. Better footsies, and Akuma actually feels it when he makes a mistake against him.
Ryu does well against V.Akuma, the AE twins will probably do well against him, too. As for 'Gief, V.Seth is also impossible for him.
Wouldn’t 2012 Cammy be good against him too along with AE fei?
I would imagine ultra makoto would be a wild card against him because a few mistakes against her would hurt. AE ken, ultra ryu and possibly vanilla rog might do decent…
I was about to say Vanilla Ryu and AE Yun, would be a decent counter to Vanilla Akuma. Maybe not a true counter but if you want the best match it’d probably be them since they’d probably go even at worse. As for Cammy, I assume the match would still play out the same way except he does way more damage and stun. Does that turn the tide of the match that much?
About Vanilla Sagat again, do you guys think Super/AE Fei would still beat him or at least go even. He’d have safer rekka’s back and the death combo that only works on a few characters including Sagat. Vanilla Fei does have a version of it, but you have to burn meter for EX chicken wing. Damage is still very good, just not as good as the meterless version from Super/AE.
Word is Capcom is considering making ES online now due to recent feedback. Would be STUPID not to do this. Some of my close friends might be gamers but none of them play SF, how else should I play against people if not online? Do what’s right, Capcom.
Also, yeah, I think Super/2012 Cammy would do well against Akuma, same with Fei. I could also see V. Seth being able to hold his own due to his fireball-ultra trap, and Super Bison being a nuisance with is U2 and wake-up options.
Curious, why Super Cammy instead of Vanilla? Isn’t Vanilla just straight up better outside of not having the useless ultra 2?
I’m kinda skeptical about the AE twins, a lot of nerfs were used to make them the best…
Pretty sure pre-patch Vanilla Fei Long in reality was high, if not top tier (although most people rated him as D tier/garbage).
I think the Prima SF4 Official Game Guide that was released at the same time as SF4 for console did assess Fei correctly after all:
S - Sagat
A - Zangief, Ryu, Fei Long, Balrog, Bison, Blanka
B - Rufus, Akuma, Seth, Chun Li, Gouken, Rose, Ken, Sakura
C - Fuerte, Gen, Abel, Dhalsim, Guile, Viper
D - Cammy, Honda, Vega
F - Dan
@Eternal
Correct me if I’m wrong but Super Cammy had TKCS and a bunch of new normals to link from? I know V. Cammy was good but Super Cammy was considered an improvement? Again, barely played the character and don’t remember the changelog that far back.
TKCS was in Vanilla and the normal buffs didn’t come until AE when she lost TKCS though there might be some Vanilla - Super changes I don’t know of since I also don’t play her much. Only changes I know of are nerfs from Vanilla - Super but she didn’t get nerfed very much.
I think the ultimate troll experience would be to beat v.Akuma with s.Hakan.