http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Street_Fighter_IV/El_Fuerte
Not exactly hard to just quickly look it up on the very website you are currently on lol.
Damage was exactly 500. You were correct truebsevenue.
IIRC, from vanilla->super they adjusted the juggle points for his ultra, so that it would hit fewer times after a headbutt. I think they adjusted the last punch to hit twice instead of three times. His overall bnb into ultra probably lost a good 50-70 damage (too lazy to calculate it atm), which isn’t terrible all things considered, but it was roughly in-line with the damage the other (nerfed) characters could do in super (~400+, instead of the 500-600ish in vanilla).
About Balrog, I forgot that in AE they nerfed his cr Hp with 20 dmg, and nerfed both his jumpins’s dmg. Vanila Balrog would be very damaging.
M16, who do you think is a better version, vanilla Bison or Super Bison ? I know he had more dmg in vanilla, but gained U2 in Super. Not sure about anything else…
he would probably get destroyed by lk cancel into tiger knee loop, in AE12 you can approach him at that distance and start outpoking with cr.mk/st.mk or setup fake cross up after 3x cr.lp on block, ther’s also a very ambiguous cross up/unblockable ? on the corner against sagat , for AE Yun its not gonna be that hard , he have unblockable against him, and Yun have low health … stand lk against dive kick, sako style Kappa
in good hands E.ryu could wreck lots of Vanilla characters, but its all about not missing a single chance and knowing all setups possible on wake up as they dont have DWU, otherwise he gonna have a bit of trouble… as for ULTRA only environment, DWU kill all of his mixup option, not sure how he gonna really do
V.Akuma gets every vortex setup available, because he doesn’t have the added recovery frames on throw/air fireball, etc. In other words, these matchups play exactly like Vanilla. Akuma is 6:4 vs Sagat thanks to vortex and roundhouse loops. Sagat has no tech vs the vortex, he never did, because his fastest wakeup is safe jumpable and Akuma can OS every single other option he has, including any new shit with red focus.
Super Abel is what you should be pitting him against, since this is when Breathless was introduced/broken. Abel was destroyed by Sagat in vanilla.
5-5. Ultra Ken will be the version of choice, since he moves almost as fast as Akuma, has Jab to Sweep back, and actually does good damage on DP FADC U1.
Juri wrecks the shittier versions of Sagat. V.Sagat will abortion punch the bitch like she deserves. She’s not exactly getting any real bullshit in Ultra, though that will be her best version. Duds…no idea.
The characters that will be left out of remix are characters who are shitty anyways that no one is really playing so it’s not a big loss.
Remix will probably have roughly 15 characters that can be played at a competitive level which is still better then most games.
V.Ryu did great damage. Just add 10 to his most used attacks, plus the super trap, plus the coward copter, plus trade Ultra, plus the ability to FADC HP DP, plus a godlike cr.mk then you’ll understand why he was easily top 3 in Vanilla.
My point about V. Sagat vs V. Akuma is that this match was considered even back in the day, when vortex wasn’t fully discovered. I’m curious how this match would play now, with Akuma and Seth having their vortex fully developed, but also having access at vanilla tools/ damage.
I don’t see why pick S. Abel against Sagat, especially - you want U1, anyway, against him. S. Abel had crazy U2, but the problem is, his U1 is also godlike, and in vanilla he gets more dmg for U1, more dmg for TTs, and more health. I would mostly go with V. Abel, especially against Sagat.
And I’m not that sure about V. Sagat beating V. Abel - back then Abel was considered a bad character. I would be curious how Abel with all the latest tech plus his dmg/ tools from vanilla would face Sagat.
Anyway, checking some old tier lists from vanilla, I see that, at least at some point Akuma, Dhalsim, Ryu, Viper, Bison and Balrog were considered even matches for Sagat back then.
Didn’t notice that. Nice info.
Curious what you mean by this. His walk speed is the same as Ryu’s in ultra. There is a decently big jump from Ryu - Akuma. The difference between Ryu - Akuma is nearly the same as Cody - Ryu. (The EXACT same if we are talking Super/AE Cody - Ryu)
If you mean as a culmination of all of his moves, Ken losing coward copter really hurts that statement. His mobility is still noticeably lower than Akuma who has ~26% faster walk speed + demon flip + dive kick + far HK while Ken’s only got the ground approach options of kara dash, F+MK, and F+HK with a much slower walk speed.
I mean the qualifier “almost” is of course open to interpretation but I feel that there is pretty noticeably a mobility difference between Ultra Ken and Akuma.
You greatly underestimate ae yun.
V. Top 5 will not allow e. Ryu second chances. They hit quite hard. I dont think his knockdown setups on ae hitboxes will work the same as they do on v. Hitboxes, but who knows.
people really underestimate how good those vanilla top 4 were. just the vanilla characters in general really. no one remembers all the crying people did over sagat/akuma/ryu.
and if you hate seth/viper/rufus now…just wait.
i really think if this did become the standard version people would want to abandon it within 6 months. i’ll be okay tho. i play some top tiers. i have pocket yun/sagat/fei if shit gets heavy
but if youre playing mid tiers. youre in for some eye openers
Hard-to-blockables won’t work on vanilla characters.
They said true unblockables work on vanilla characters, but they didn’t say if non-vanilla characters can do it (I would think they could). So E.Ryu would just do the fireball fadc ultra.
Vanilla Sagat will continue to get bodied, and stay top tier.
i tried some unblockable with ryu on vanilla ( installed it this morning ) none has worked, but i dont know all of theme, i will post if i find any that does work
Unblockables weren’t in Vanilla, there was a different glitch back then, unblockable Ultras, when they fixed them in Super they created unblockables as we know them by accident.
It’d be interesting if characters from Super onwards could create unblockable ultra setups.
It’s matchup dependent, but even then it’s just optimizing little pieces, because Bison has remained relatively unchanged throughout the series up until Ultra.
A list of Bison changes:
Spoiler
From Vanilla to Super:
Damage changes:
-LK scissors damage reduced 100->90
-St. hk damage reduced 120->100
-cr. mk damage reduced 70->65
-close hp damage reduced 120->100
-far hp damage reduced 130->120
-EX Headstomp damage reduced 200->180
-U1 damage reduced from 540->492
-Damage of all PCs increased by +10 (120/130/140/150, up from 110/120/130/140)
-Throw damage increased 130->140
Utility changes:
-Bison gained the ability to cross up PC (2nd hitbox was extended backwards)
-EX PC increased projectile invincibility so that it could reliably pass through 2-hit projectiles (would randomly get stuffed in vanilla)
-Slide is FADCable (super-cancellable), damage reduced from 110->100
-QCF U2
Changes from Super to AE:
-Pushback on LK scissors increased on block
-Non-EX Scissor kick stun reduced from 150->100
-St. hk damage changed from 100 -> 110 up to the knee, 80 damage at the foot
-cr.lk hurtbox extended forward
-Super fully projectile invincible
-U2 changed to a 55f charge move, damaged increased 420->450, increased recovery
AE to 2012:
-St. roundhouse damage at tip 80->90
-Scissors FADC is +5 on hit now up from +4
-Non-EX scissors stun reverted 100->150
It looks like a lot, but really it isn’t. A lot of the changes are immaterial to the way Bison is played, and so the most universal changes are really just the damage nerf to st.hk, and the damage change to LK scissors, because those two moves make up a good % of Bison’s damage during a match. The st.hk is noticeable because when it traded, as it often did, it would trade in Bison’s favor.
QCF U2 is nice, but it’s really not that great of an ultra because it’s horribly slow. Any fb character with recovery faster than Ryu’s either required buffering to punish in time (i.e. losing charge), or a read. It did give Bison more freedom to walk forward though, because opponents still had to respect it a little, but in non-fb matches, the move was pretty worthless. People give way too much credit to this move, and IMO people associate Bison being top tier in Super (he wasn’t IMO), with the ability for intermediate level players to get away with random U2’s.
Slide FADC actually made his slide somewhat useful, but at 2 bars, it gets maybe 1 to 2 uses throughout a match, and the damage is not guaranteed.
I like Vanilla Bison over Super Bison, but both versions still have losing matchups against vanilla Sagat/Ryu/Gief and AE Yun.
You pretty much have to have a fireball in order to do unblockable Ultra setups right?
Super Blanka is probably still the best version. He has the best ability to escape mixups, controls neutral the best, but really there is 0 good versions of the character.
On vanilla not having unblockables
Pretty much, but it might just require only a disjointed hitbox. So maybe Dudley could setup an unblockable on the vanilla characters with his rose?