Seth-in-depth Match-up Thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
1041

Seth’s Cr.MK > Dudley’s St.FP/Fw.FP (whiff punish is cool too with St.MK)
Seth’s F.LK > Dudley’s low attacks.
Meaty jump-ins/ 5frame safe jumps > wake up Cross Counters

In this match up you have to play footsies. Every Dudley player has a pattern with their Fierce Punches. Either focus absorb- dash in - SPD or FA Lv2 punish them or do the above punishes.
Get them to start jumping by doing that and the basic mix up of fireballs/tanden engines/ F.FP. (tanden the ducking punches or Cr.MK~Legs).
When I notice that the Dudley like to do wake up ducking, I usually do the same jumpin setup to bait it ~
** Then I…**
[LIST=1]
[]jump accordingly to the way he goes and empty jump Reg. Grab
[]" " SPD (once they start to tech^)
[]" " Cr.LK
[]jump accordingly to the way he goes and go for Toe Tap ~ Cross over~ HK
this depends on if they’re doing MK/HK/EX version, if he does LK then just HK for the cross up. Also I replace the HK with the enders of the #1-3
[]Or I OS from the beginning with U2 (Yes I play U2 against dudley, because I can punish just about everything with U2 than I can with U1. He can escape the Oki after Ultra with the ducking, especially now with the EX version.)
[]Or I Just simply do Dive kick in the place of whatever normal I used for that jump (this usually stuffs duckings depending on when/where you jumped from) in he’s escaping, and I OS with SPD just incase he whiff
[/LIST]
Anything else? Btw, I miss the smiley faces and SRK icons =(.

1042

Now iam playing a cheap Yun player,He is a St.Mp abuser,yun’s st.mp is so fucking cheap,none of my normals are beating it at the moment.
This is what i need to know:
What are my options after yun’s St.MP into Dp+Lp string,i know i can focus/dp/spd the dp+lp of Yun but tht trap is fucking overpowered as all of these counters have too much risk,because you need to immediately counter it on starting frames so opponent can easily bait all these.
how much advantage is yun at after tht chain,i havent seen yun’s videos at all,but many yuns like to dive kick after the chain or continue with mp xx dp+lp again.Any information on this?

edit…just found out the answer,after blocking dp+lp,just lvl1 focus and dash,if yun tries to mp,dp+lp again,focus attack will crumple yun on counter,also u can ex legs during mp into dp+lp.

1043

The guile match-up is a hard one. You have to deal with his sonic boom and footsy game until you can score a knock down or get him in the corner. that’s ultimately your goal in the match up cause guile is free on cross up and in the corner. dive kick can stuff his flash kick if timed right (not sure about ex version). you want to be at around cr.mp/cr.mp range so you can get that cross up. basically when you see him walk forward or throw sonice boom or stand up. jump in and go for the spd mix up. once you get him with the spd go for the usual dash forward x2 safe jump. when you’re in the corner you can properly time a jump in with a stomp to beat his flash kick clean. if he ultras itll be wasted cause only one hit will work if any. thats pretty much been the guile match up.

most important i feel that you cannot stay at fullscreen in this match up and go for fireball / walljump game. his boom recovers too fast for far hp usually and wall jumps are always a bad option really esp. against guile. hope this helps

1044

Guile match up should be free, Seth can’t be beaten in the fireball war by anyone. Especially with him having Ultra 1, Far St.FP, and Ex-Legs. What makes the match up so free is because Guile has to come to Seth and he gets destroyed once hes near.

1045

Thanks for some of the information. But I disagree with Seth being very good at a fireball war, especially Guile. Long post incoming: first about why Guile is hard or impossible to beat in a fireball war, followed by what I think about Seth’s fireball game, and finally what I can gather about the Guile match up.

fst.HP is prohibitively hard to use because of alternating Sonic Boom speeds which result in Seth getting tagged by slower versions of Sonic Boom on block and even on hit occasionally. Ultra 1 does not win fireball wars against anyone if they have meter. EX projectiles will often beat Ultra 1 if they’re anywhere that isn’t the complete opposite side of the the screen. Even one or two training mode squares from being full screen allows most EX projectiles to knock Seth out of Ultra 1. You have to make an educated guess or be playing a very predictable Guile to land Ultra 1 on top of everything else. I think you might be able to react to Sonic Boom with Ultra 1 if you’re looking for it with a lot of practice and you’re playing offline, but it’s practically impossible to react properly when Guile has meter. I tend to give EX Legs less credit than it deserves. But against Guile, I do not think it is possible to reliably react to Sonic Booms with it in time at most distances.

In general, Seth struggles with fireball wars. The main reason is fairly obvious: his Sonic Boom recovers too slowly. But he can have some success with full screen wars…and even then, he has some issues. Making your foe commit to a war at full screen is often nice because you can use fst.HP to punish them for it. Unfortunately, many characters can use EX projectiles which are too fast, projectiles that hit low, projectiles that are too slow, or a combination of these to prevent or even punish Seth for trying fst.HP. Ultra 1 fits the same bill and suffers almost the same problems. If they slowly walked forward during your war, they could be in range to stuff Ultra 1 with an EX projectile. Hell, if they’re close enough they can stuff it with a regular one if it’s fast as well. EX Legs is unfortunately useless for a fireball war. While it’d be extremely awesome to get someone to dedicate themselves to a war at the distance EX Legs can punish projectiles, nobody is going to or wants to do a fireball war at that range because they can get a free jump in punish on Seth for throwing his Sonic Boom. Another thing Seth has going for him in fireball wars is his Super. While it loses to EX projectiles, it beats other projectiles clean. Proper reactions can suck in opponents from full screen and you can of course punish people who try to jump over your Sonic Boom. It may have other applications with it’s newfound invincibility.

Now, about Guile. Taking advice into account, does this sound like a good game plan?

Slowly advance to Guile, occasionally punishing predictable Sonic Booms with fst.HP. Focus absorb Sonic Booms or neutralize them with your own full screen but block them mid screen. Once you get close or get him cornered, wait for a second. If he Sonic Booms, punish with EX Legs. If he walks forward, wait for him to get in range of LP SPD and let it rip. If he simply sits their and does nothing, dash SPD. After landing any of these, it’s time to mix up. For the first two mix ups, do a properly timed head stomp, properly timed dive kick, or j.HK cross up to make him scared to reversal flash kick if he’s not a very good Guile. Then become unpredictable and do work until Guile guesses right or you win. If Guile guesses right and gets you off of him, you may have two new options. The first is Ultra 2, which has two uses. One, you can add a significant amount of damage to your next mix up depending on what you do. The other is if you can successfully read or react to a Sonic Boom near Guile in time, you can use Ultra 2 to suck him in and punish it (Ultra 2 is invincible to projectiles still.) The second option you may have gained access to is Super. While this opens up a lot of options for your mix ups which don’t need to be explained or gone into, it does open up Seth’s fireball trap. Something to consider because without meter, Guile will have to jump over one of your Sonic Booms eventually.

Finally, a question. I’ve been exploring option selects and while I’ve got the herpderpeasy ones (Shoryuken~MP+MK, fwj.HK~Shoryuken, fwj.HK~HK Legs) I either don’t understand or know any others of his. Can someone help me on those? Thanks guys.

1046

man what do u do vs Adon? that matchup is impossible for seth to win…

1047

i still use ultra 1 against guile as its can punish a full screen jump,who try to punish far hp of seth by jumping in,who try to backbash or jump back to get out of seth’s mixups,who teleport and guile at full screen will throw a projectile its his game,no matter how much he baits,just focus on sonic boom sound and boom ultra,i have 80% success rate of u1 against guile lp sonic boom and against 20k guiles,u just need to corner guile and it shud be over,bait a flash kick after ur block strings by charging focus and then either back dash or forward dash depending on situations,lvl 1 focus alot and then dash in dp fadc,really seth has lot of options against guile,either at full screen or close range,i never had problem against guile and though it is a 5-5 mathup but i think it still is in seth’s favour specially after the damage nerfs of guile…
ex legs?,well i dont use it i have an instinct of judging fireballs and reversal dps,i dont know y but its natural,though i have problems against boxer and vega,vega’s cr.lp and cr.mp makes you focus them or jump at him but u can be predictable because u dont have many options,balrog is hard to get in,he punishes jump ins easily and he is better at footsie too…i dont know how to approach these too matches,i just try to zone and get a knockdown by baiting.

1048

seth does not beat guile in the fireball war imo. seths fireballs take too long to recover. his st.fp does not go completely fullscreen and it is difficult to punish guiles lp sonic boom. thats not the way you play that match up. you have to get in and force him to stand and lose his charge by cross up. guile can easily recoupe any damage lost in a fireball war using his ex boom which goes really fast. using a keep away strategy with seth is not viable anymore. it was in vanilla but not in ae. now he has to go in for most characters. also, reacting to a fireball with ex legs is very difficult and will not well against guiles lp. sonic boom because he recovers too fast. also, it is really difficult to punish guile with ultra 1 unless he is using ex fireball full screen or fireball in front of you. id recommend going with ultra 1 only to counter full screen jumpins otherwise go with u2 for the extra corner damage.

i can’t say if thats a viable strategy because it all depends on the player. i believe in knowing seth ups and option selects for characters and then just playing the player, not the character. if you have guile in the corner, on wake up you can time a footstomp to beat out flash kicks from guile if you place it near right after the arc of his jump. itll also force him to block high if he chooses to block. just don’t let him bully you with his pokes and don’t let him chuck plasma. if he’s throwing alot of fireballs you’re doing something wrong and he’s in control. get him with a spd and set up the mix up. just don’t let him start up his game and if he does you have to be patient about getting in.

as for the option select: it works because seth has a multi hitting dp and it can be os’d with focus attack. so that if the it hits, it will continue (to combo) the rest of the hits of seths dp and not activate focus attack but if your opponent blocks you will not continue (to combo) the rest of his dp and FA will come out. make sense? so in order for it to work you must make sure that you’re hitting forward when you’re doing dp motion and mp+mk. let me know if that helps.

1049

I should of went into details before saying that.I mostly talk in general to all characters that have projectiles.
-What I meant was that F.St.FP is best to use against guile from Semi- Full screen, because the trade is in our favor and most of the times you might even tag the guile player before it even comes out. Try not to use this Mid screen in a predictable way or they’ll jump at you to punish… which is the thing you want them to do. (Free Dps = Knockdown = Free Damage/Mixups) Its a great tool that keeps them jumping and preventing them to throw fireballs. If the Guile player decides to just sit there and wait for the F.St. FP , then let him. Slowly push them to the corner to their death.
-Ex-Legs can be very handy when Guile gets predictable with his fireballs, but most importantly, you can use this to punish incomplete block strings. For example, Guile’s Target Combo and any string into fireballs.
-Ultra one is just as useful in this match up as U2. Of course its almost damn near impossible to punish sonic booms on reaction, but if you’re taking educated guesses to punish them, why not? The risk reward is so much in your favor. What is the most Guile can do from Mid-Full screen besides hitting you with another sonic boom? 40-80dmg Vs. your 300-380 is pretty damn good, especially against one of the worst comeback characters in the game. Another way to use this Ultra is to punish those guile players who love to jump back/Back dash after and between you block strings. You could always OS a Jab with ultra to catch his backdash too. One more thing, I dont see much Seth players doing this other than myself (unless I just didnt see), but ever since the Ultra trap was patched, Seth can option select his Ultra to punish full screen Focus Absorb- Back/Forward Dashes and on hit. How it works? Capcom made it to where you can’t have a fireball and Ultra 1 out at the same time, sooo once the fireball is gone (once the focus attack absorbs it or if someone blocks or gets hit by), you’re able to do Ultra 1.
-Just because it takes Seth has to take a while to recover after a sonic boom doesn’t mean he can’t beat Guile in the fireball war, his fireball is fast and starts up decently, that’s what matters. Guile will have to either Focus Absorb dash back/dash forward, jump forward/backward, neutral jump, or block.
FA-Dashback- Gets Closer to the corner and he risks taking damage since you can hit him with F.St.FP. Hes in risk of getting Super trapped and Ultra OSed
FA-Dash forward- risks taking damage from F.St.FP and gets him closer to you. Hes in risk of getting Super trapped and Ultra OSed
Neutral jump- loses his charge. Hes in risk of getting Super trapped
Block- Chip damage, closer to the corner
Jump back(only full screen)- he can take damage if you advance yourself forward to move the screen to make him land on it
Jump Forward- loses charge and closer to you. Hes in risk of getting Super trapped

If you need help with OS for against certain characters, you gotta tell us which ones you’re having problems with. We’ll be happy to help.

1050

Ive got a couple of questions regarding Seth:

1-. The adon matchup is pretty hard for me, I dont know what to do against him, any ideas on how should I approach this match?

2-. Is there any Os to beat rose’s options on wakeup?

3-. Is there also a list of which chars I can get free chip with U2 with no fear of being reversal “something”?

thanks a lot

1051

He does. It doesn’t matter if it recovers for too long, the only way guile can even punish your fireball is if he’s in range to jump or Backhand you. If you’re Semi-full to full screen, he’ll lose, because Seth’s sonic booms has nice start up, the speeds on his fierce are crazy fast, and most importantly, its a quarter circle move, not charge. Yes we know that Seth’s F.St.FP doesn’t go full screen, thats why you stand in that perfect range the entire time (Semi-Full screen) and you can tag Guile’s legs underneath the boom. Yes, most of the time the boom will trade, but it will be in our favor. If he does Fp or Ex sonic boom, it goes clean over us as Seth bends down to do Fp. If the Guile is that dumb to throw away his Ex meter just for a lousy-maybe 40 damage, then hes an idiot. He needs that meter for Flash kick FADC to keep characters like seth off him and to make his combos hurt, especially now that it takes like 20 sonic booms to build one little bars worth of meter. No meter Guile = Carefree mix ups. Ultra 1 is only for educated guesses. Do you really think that most of those guile players actually pump fake their sonic booms? Most of those guile player have patterns and sometimes throw the booms mindlessly, because they’ve been spoiled with Guile’s gawdlike recovery. Also Ultra 1 can be OSed from Focus Absorbs and Hits. Btw, do you really think you can actually just jump/walk forward on Guile without playing a fireball game?
You can’t rush it, even Poonkgo does some of this before he makes his move. If you just go in like a bull, you’ll get slaughtered by Backhands, air throws, down fierces, flash kicks, and ex sonic booms.

1052

-Don’t know this match-up too too well, but practice punishing Jaguar Kicks with DP, Ex- Legs, and Ultra 1. Its one of their best tools, take that away from them. I prefer to use Ex-Legs and Ultra 1 more often over DP because Adon players like to switch the strengths of the Jaguar Kicks. Ultra1/ Ex-lags will punish them even if they’re near you or far away from you due to their range and invincibility.
-For rose, meaty tandens will beat all of her wake up options : Ex soul spiral, back dash, Ultra 2, and ex tanden will beat jumping too. It loses to Ultra 1 and ex soul throw.That’s all I can think of right now off the top of my head, that is guaranteed. Can’t remember if doing, jump-in ~ OS Dp will make her ex soul throw/ex spiral/ back dash whiff.
-Ever since AE came out, I haven’t went into training mode to see who can do what to Seth’s Ultra 2, Sorry =(.

1053

Against Viper, c.lk c.lp c.hp is good to bully viper after some SPD’s. If they mash out burn kick during your block strings the c.hp will hit them, and you get the launch. If they do EX burn kick, it trades, and Viper only gets 20 damage, and you actually get a good trade :smiley:

1054

there’s 1 matchup that has been bothering me, and its Boxer, i know Seth is not gonna beat him at footsies anytime soon, so I dont know how should I approach this matchup…

maybe poongko style, just wait for 1 opening (or create one) and RTDS? idk, i need suggestions. thanks in advance

1055

Against Boxer look for knockdown,Focus randomly and look for those dashes which break Armor,Bait them and punish,You must dp all of his jumps in order to make tandem engine a threat,am not too good at this matchup but i tend to focus a lot against boxer and even on wakeup as his headbutt doesnt break focus and you can also change the releasing time to catch a jump,beware if he has ultra 1 though,bait it.A backdashing happy boxer is pain too i cannot use the dp frame trap because dp whiffs.Thts about my gameplan against boxer,i usally switch to my sub-main sagat against boxer.

1056

Reversals armor break.

1057

Yes but i noticed that if it hits immediately on active frames reversals break armor,but they wont if u spaced it right that is if they hit you on later frames…i know this because opponents here use focus attack a lot for a free combo.

1058

I think the reason this matchup is hard for me, is because I try to play footsies vs him…whereas IMO, I should just be moving almost all the time and fishing for that knockdown to start my mixups…kinda like akuma.

1059

Boxer players can be quite annoying.

  • Ultra 1 is preferred against Boxer. You can react to nearly all dash punches, punish poorly spaced or read attempt TAPs, punish Headbutt, make him scared to jump, discourage jab pressure, deal with predictable footsies…
  • Zoning Boxer is very possible because Boxer players have to be fairly precise to actually shut down your zoning game. However, you probably should not bother with this and only use your zoning tools to create an opening.
  • SPD is important, it will start a lot of your mix ups. Remember to dash SPD, reaction SPD punish, tick SPD, and (very) occasionally do wake up SPD if they’re pressuring your wake up.
  • Sonic Boom, teleport mix up is a little more risky against Boxer because of headbutts, TAP, and EX dash punches. Something to keep in mind.
  • Do not play footsies with Boxer. Do not even try. If Boxer is approaching, throw out the occasional fst.MK and buffer Sonic Boom from cr.MK. But these are generally defensive pokes: if Boxer is trying to get you to play footsies, dash SPD and discourage it or simply back off.
  • Boxer can and will safejump you if you’re knocked down. Keep it in mind.
  • Boxer is pretty free to mix ups once you land SPD or score a knockdown in some way. Reversal Headbutts will almost always whiff if you do j.HK cross ups and you can punish with Hyakuretsukyaku or whatever, EX Dash costs him meter and can be read with Legs or Tanden to break it (can’t remember if you can OS this or not), properly timed SPDs will deal with his jabs, and these are just basics…
  • Don’t bother with hit confirm OS DP on Boxer’s wake up, but you can use it for just about everything else.
  • If you’re having trouble dealing with jab jab throw pressure, just take the throw and avoid the frame traps. Seriously, the throw is much less painful than what could happen if you get counter hit or tagged by one of the jabs. Once you have meter you can basically mash confirm your DP then reset the situation.
  • Dive kick is really useful for this match up despite how much it sucks, especially if the Boxer player has bad reactions.
  • Super trap can be pretty useful and you’ll likely get access to it a few times.
  • (not 100% sure on this) Should be able to Tanden Engine backdash happy Boxers.
1060

Making a double post because I want to make sure someone notices this since I have a few questions as well, haha. First, in response to Zaith about Guie…

  • That’s a good point about the fst.HP trade being in our favor. I don’t really like doing trades with Seth, but maybe the new health and stun boost permits it.
  • I can’t ever really utilize EX legs unless someone is throwing their fireball so predictably that I probably could jump in anyway. Very likely a weakness of my own though, and another good point about interrupting strings with it.
  • I still disagree about this. Picking Ultra 1 does not seem smart to me against Guile. The reward ratio is indeed heavily in your favor, but it relies on a read. Ultra 2 is still kinda shitty in my opinion but it does give you guaranteed damage in a lot of situations. So I think going with Ultra 2 is better, because I know that if I get in on Guile, I’m going to end up landing corner legs or cr.HP, LP Shoryuken at some point and be able to do 450-500 with it. OS Ultra 1 has it’s uses (it is kind of strange how little people use it) but an on point Guile can simply neutralize your fireballs with his own or take the measly chip once instead of focus absorbing it, although I suppose taking that option off the table is kind of nice.
  • I am pretty sure this is not the case against truly efficient Guile players. I say this not because of my experience against Guile with Seth in fireball wars (which I do not have enough of) but because Guile could match Sagat in a fireball war so long as Sagat didn’t start off with a kara Tiger Shot. It is definitely a little easier for Seth in AE to come out ahead in a fireball war because Guile doesn’t build as much meter and Seth’s booms technically recover a little faster than before though, so…maybe I’m wrong, maybe.

Now, about option selects: I literally am almost clueless about this stuff. I want to know what Seth’s OS options are, what they’re meant for, and how to do them. This is a pretty big question, so I really appreciate any replies I get. What I currently know:

downback cr.LK + cr.LP (Crouch tech, herp)
HP Shoryuken / EX Shoryuken ~ MP+MK (OS Shoryuken, mainly for mix ups, getting free Shoryukens and getting opportunities)
j.HK ~ buffer HP Shoryuken (OS Shoryuken, mainly for safe jump options and punishing wake up attempts)
j.HK ~ buffer HK Legs (OS Legs, mainly for beating back dash happy opponents and wake up moves that try to move the opponent away)