Scrolling Beatemups

Whoooo just broke the 200 barrier for Beat Bonus on Sengoku 3 (201 to be exact). Did it during the second segment of the China stage, where you have the waterlillies in the background, and the stone furniture. I actually could have gotten a much higher tally if I’d played the beginning of that section correctly. To max your Beat Bonus for this segment, it is best to fight the first enemies separately. New opponents rush onscreen as soon as you defeat ONE of the two enemies in the previous wave, so if you take them down one at a time you have time to combo the remaining guy while waiting for respawn. You can use the stone furniture to gain hits while waiting for the Samurai Captains to come onscreen, and if you strike both pieces of furniture in one attack you’ll easily keep the Beat Bonus gauge high. I think it is possible to chain the entire segment in one Beat Bonus, possibly breaking the 300 barrier!

That’s the thing, for me, that raises Sengoku 3 up a level. You have two concerns: firstly, the one that is shared with all other brawler games, staying alive and progressig through the game. But you also want to be crafting your best Beat Bonus combos. I think, through this system, the game manages to transcend its genre and join the likes of Tony Hawk’s, Radiant Silvergun and NiGHTS; these games, despite being of different genres, are all very similar to Sengoko 3 because they all have that expansive “combo” system style gameplay, while also giving the gamer other concerns to think about.

For example, although I cracked out a 201 combo, I also completely and utterly messed up the stage as a whole and ended up losing a life to the weaksauce Samurai Hero boss (and then resetting, of course! Can’t play on after such a pathetic loss). My best playthrough in 1 credit so far, by the way, is stage 5, but I’m now getting the hang of the Evil Turkey’s and Guard Dogs on that stage, and getting to the boss. Stage 6 beckons…

EDIT: Oh yes, and I do have a replay saved of the 201 combo so if anyone would like to see it, could they give me some tips on getting uploaded? I’m no good at technical stuff like that, although I really want to start posting stuff up to Youtube soon.

@Lebowsk1
Well, I played the game the last time a year ago or something like that, but still remember a few things …

The best char was Kagetsura IMHO (the hero with the thunder attacks) even if some might disagree. I think so because he had great range on his slashes with good speed, long combos and 3 specials unlike most of the cast. His Hanzo style SPD was nice to have … Falcon and Byakki would be the next in a tier list. They got good foot and slash speed + damanging combos. Also Falcons Uppercut is really good in the damage department and should be used insted of his other special. Well, maybe Byakki is even better thx to the fact that his second special doesn’t end a combo. You can just combo further after it! Kongoh ranks right after them, maybe he is even tied with the 2 above. The problem is really just his speed, everything else is great. He got 3 specials with good damage and has huge range. The walking and attack speed can become a problem on crowded screens and some Bosses. Kurenai is still an ok char with good speed, but she doesn’t do much combo damage and her specials arn’t so effectiv. However she is still better then Okuni, the ex Boss char you use. Okuni has bad reach and speed on her attacks. Besides her special moves she is really bad IMHO.

Well, that’s my ranking I guess … I didn’t liked the game too much and I also just could play at a friends place. So, could be that my observations lack in some area.^^

crayfish: your threads are always way too good. where do you find all your info and shit? i mean the stage background thread wtf, how do you even come up with that shit.

btw <3 battle circuit.

easy way to 1 coin the game with cyber blue. on any boss (well most of them) use blue power up land 1-2 combos in power up mode, mash on the upgraded desperation attack until they’re dead. :slight_smile:

or just pick alien green and heal yourself all day.

please find some more battle circuit vids!

I don’t know, I’m starting to use the fireball special more often now. Sure, it doesnt quite do as much damage, but it has superior range, superior recovery time AND in the early frames it hits behind. As it knocks down, and recovers quickly, you can follow up with wake-up techs on the grounded enemies to make up the damage. The uppercut special (and normal combo finisher) is so slow it usually wrecks my Beat Bonus combos too.

It is still, of course, the move of choice vs bosses and I usually hit them with jab, jab, jab, slash, punch, slash, slash, kick, uppercut special for the most damage possible (not possible to juggle bosses with anything less than a special).

He may be useful as a playable character but I’ll tell you one thing: he’s a lot easier to defeat than Okuni. She’s got a really fast travelling fireball, and although the second hit is delayed and you can cancel the damage by specialling out, you have to be quick. At that kind of long range CPU Byakki just throws out a speculative flying kick, which you can easily sidestep and punish. His other specials are also pretty slow and punishable, although the demon-summoning obviously gains him style points. But I havent played as him so I can’t really comment much further.

I definitely think her specials are very strong. Her fireball does better damage than Falcon’s (except on frogs, where the delayed second hit doesnt register, possibly due to their short stature), and her other special does as much damage as Falcon’s uppercut in less hits. This means you can combo enemies with combo escape abilities (Vampires, Fire Phoenix) for more damage, and generally be safer.

I initially also found her normals a problem, especially her normal slash, which seemed a bit slow. But she’s quite lanky so she’s got good range, especially on the jab. I find it a general rule in Sengoku 3 that, although landing a straight slash is good when you’re sure it will land, you’re often better off landing jabs or a rushing kick first.

But I’ll definitely be experimenting with the other characters and bearing in mind what you’ve said.

Oh and what about weapon items? I’d say

Knives and bombs are pretty close because they are easy to use on multiple enemies (bombs take more skill though as you have to place the blast radius carefully. Knives you can just run away, wait for the enemies to line themselves up and let rip). I also use Falcon’s fireball after a Knife throw or two, but find bombs useful for keeping bosses off their feet while trying to kill his/her henchmen.

Shurikens are ok but rarely useful against multiple enemies (unless they are standing virtually on top of each other). I usually dash in for juggles after a throw or, like with knives, follow up with a fireball.

Plates, well… are only useful if you have absolutely NOTHING ELSE. Even then it’s debatable.

And hey, anyone posting here re: Sengoku 3 do feel free to post up your top combo and 1-credit point. I’m a competitive S.O.B lol

Lol has healing every been implemented in a balanced way in a brawler? Nicole in Guardian Heroes was broken as hell because you could just use her life-draining attack to rack up your magic points, and your (magic point draining) healing to rack up your life points. Wash rinse repeat. “HEAAAALLIIIIIING!”

Plus the Golden Hero annoyed me in that game. During some boss battles he’d prety much do everything (coughKanoncough)

@Lebowsk1
Like I said, her only good thing are the special moves of hers, but if you compare the rest …

However, I always played Byakki back in the days, alone for his cool hair. :wonder: His standart combos are strong, he is fast, his special, when comboed, is great course you can even combo afterwards (makes him a real Boss killer). Well, he lacks a bit in range, but has everything else. Try him, you will find him quite good once you get the hang of his best ways to combo. At least it was the case for me besides the hair, lol.

Were not Kunai’s the top throw items …, you could make some nice normal combo cancels with them if I remember right …

Help me please Neowolf (or anyone for that matter)!

I’m trying to run some replays from MARP, specifically the Sengoku 3 ones. I think I have downloaded the correct version of MAME (the one it was recorded on), but it reports the following files as missing:

261-c1d.bin NOT FOUND
261-c2d.bin NOT FOUND
261-c3d.bin NOT FOUND
261-c4d.bin NOT FOUND

I have obviously been playing Sengoku 3 so I figured I’d have all the relevent files so… whut’s up with the above?

re: characters, I’m still sticking with Falcon but I now use the following system.

If I lose a life to the Samurai hero boss I reset.
If I lose a life to both Onuki and Byakki I reset.
If I lose a life to Onuki then I play as her from level 4 on.
If I lose a life to Byakki then I play as him from level 4 on.
If I don’t lose a life to any boss, I stick with Falcon!

Call it an honour system if you will. And yes, Byakki does seem good, his two specials have differing ranges. And Okuni also has a problem with her throw (too fast, lacks some invincibility time) and her jump (has some trouble getting over the shots fired by stage 4 boss) so yeah she probably is one of the weaker characters. Still usable though.

Why hasnt ne1 said Guardian heroes for sega saturn?!?!?!? Such a underrated game. That was probably one of my favorite beat’em ups for it. You could have up to 6 players in the vs mode!! The combos you could make up were so much fun. The storyline was ok but I really didnt pay much mind to it since the fights were so great.

To give you guys a sample at what you are missing out on here’s the intro to the game and a quick battle.

INTRO
[media=youtube]XnkAuydAZHs[/media]

BATTLE
[media=youtube]bl5B8o9Ea9Y&mode=related&search=[/media]
(not the best players i’ve seen on this game but it at least shows you what the game looked like, both of them really didnt use their skills much). Im sure someone here could find a better one.

GH is awesome but has a few flaws (over-reliance on Golden Hero, Nicole being broken etc) preventing it from being my number 1. But there should have been a Dreamcast sequel, really should have been. Has some of the best character designs I’ve seen in any game, I especially like how you have robots battling against magical characters and yet nothing seems out of place.

Just got up to Stage 6 (Kyoto) on Sengoku 3 in one credit. Yknow I really wish they were still making these games… even fan-made stuff. The only recent thing I’ve seen is that Beats of Rage but I wasnt too impressed with the engine.

I’ve never played Sengoku 3, but I must admit that I really did like the enemy designs in the 1st Sengoku. Especially that Blue Samurai when you broke his sword, he would sorta shake his head, toss it away, and proceed to pummel you with open palm strikes! :lol:
And it looks like they designed Mizuki from SS2 after the 2nd level boss?

As for GH? I still have my copy that I bought the day it was released! :tup: I would have loved to have seen a DC sequel also. Not to mention the last boss, the Sky Spirit, just a little insane, but fun as hell to fight!

The truth Lebowsk1, I also hate it, that this genre is kinda dead. Final Fight Streetwise for example had an kinda oldschool arcade mode. I wish there were more like this. Damn Capcom should have made the whole Streetwise like their arcade mode. It was way too short and you coudn’t even fight Belger in Streetwise’s arcademode. But well, not many fans still exist for this genre …:frowning:

Yeah, although I guess I forget about 3D brawlers like Streetwise and Spikeout. I guess I did quite enjoy Die Hard on Saturn (preferred it to the DC sequel), and Zombie Revenge on DC was okaay (I guess…), but I can’t really see the point in making a brawler that plays 2D with 3D graphics. May as well go the whole way and make it 3D gameplay. I’ve never played Streetwise or Spikeout, it’s a shame the latter never came to the DC.

As for 2D, well I did pick up a GBA game to play on my DS called Gekido’s Revenge (or something). Seemed very promising at first, with Sengoku-style combo system, but the game quickly degenerated into an explore-a-thon and (even worse) a platformer, dodging traps and gaps and so forth. Although now I think of it, Batman on the SNES needs to get some love here, that was a great game. It’s a game worth mastering, great fun, what with the head-clash special and all.

Anyway, back to Sengoku 3… I couldnt get the Perfect Run replay from MARP to work, so I had to settle for the 2nd replay on the site (will check out the third and final one today). And… well, my reaction is mixed. Firstly I think the dude was using auto-fire for jabs and combos, which I think is not allowed on the site? For the first three stages, although effective, his play was UGLY, real ugly… massive over-use of throws. He played as the little ninja chick and was just throwing all the time, when he could. I swear sometimes 90% of the damage he did to bosses was done via throws (and, as they don’t do much damage, this took a loooong time… crappy time bonus). At first I thought it was some trick he was using in order to get a highscore, but I checked back and no, I was getting a higher score per stage racking up high Beat Bonusses.

When he wasnt throwing, he was hitting enemies with a running kick, jabbing twice and then repeating over and over. No use of air combos, in fact hardly jumping at all, or using items. Lacked some basic knowledge, like which enemies had wakeup attacks and which didnt (he’d move out of the way for basic sword guys getting up). Also couldnt deal with the rush attack of the Samurai captains at all, didnt seem to know you can easily hit them out of their rushes with a jab or even a slash if you time it right.

Still, he started showing some class from stage 4 onwards (especially as some enemies from this point on cannot be thrown), although nothing spectacular still. Used specials almost like you would in an RPG: made no attempt to work them into combos, would just blast out three ranged attacks in a row to kill enemies he didnt like (samurai captains and dogs especially). Had good knowledge of things like a smart bomb attack taking out frogs in one hit. Used scenery to shepherd the weird Spirit Ghost enemies excellently. I like how he dealt with the phoenix bird, using the bombs to push it out to max range, forcing it to go into it’s fire charge -> swoop attack loop. Dealt with the cannon boss perfectly.

Come stage 5 the wheels started falling off though. Repetitive throw tactcs started to wear thin and was getting tagged left and right by ninja chicks. Had to use all specials to take care of dogs. By the time he got to the boss the throw trick didnt work at all, there was too much on the screen (bouncing fireballs plus fast spearmen). Needed to hit the boss for much more damage at a time and JUMP MORE. Croaked just before stage 6.

I mean hell, I can only just get further than he did, but I’m confident I can keep playing in the general style I am and complete the game in 1 credit. When I watch that clip I feel the guy needs to change style if he’s going to have any hope of dealing with Stage 6. Also I think I’d die of boredom playing with that many throws… heheh anyway check it out for yourself if you get time.

EDIT: watching it made me think it would have been nice if, after being thrown two or three times, enemies learnt to tech throws. I personally like to do a pseudo Samurai Shodown-style push throw trick: grab them as if to throw but, if there’s no pressure, wait until we both reset and then go into a combo. Saves on time…

Well Lebowsk1, only the arcade mode in Streetwise played like a 2D scroller (not in terms of moving, but going from screen to screen). The rest of the game was kinda an 3D person view advanture with fighting elements. So a DMC Ghettostyle lol, I wish Kyle got more moves in this mode through…:wonder:

I grew up playing Double Dragon and Final Fight when I was a kid. Has anyone played Mighty Final Fight on the NES? In the arcades, I played X-men, the TMNT games, and the Simpsons arcade game. Those were so fun.

Mighty Final Fight was great with it’s experience system.

Haggar was broken. He started out two levels ahead of Guy and Cody. I also liked how you could damage Damnd by insulting his reputation.

The only bad thing was the lack of co-op, which was pretty inexcusable for a game that came out in 1993.

The experience thing was nice because when you reached a certain point, your character gains an extra ability. I remember Cody could throw a fireball and Guy could do a double roundhouse. I think Haggar got a dash attack. Haggar started off with more experience than Guy and Cody but if you start the game with him and then die right away, you can pick Guy or Cody and they’ll have the same experience level that he does. It wasn’t a good idea to use your special attack too often because for every enemy that it hit, you lost life each time. I remember against the final boss, I hit like 5 of his projectiles with my special attack and after that I had almost no health left. But yeah, the lack of co-op mode was pretty upsetting.

Maybe you’re thinking of Guardians of the 'Hood. I doubt it aged very well. I always had fun playing it, but I knew it was awful.

Sengoku 3

Ok, now I’ve already mentioned that I feel Sengoku 3 is the greatest brawler of all time, and I’ve also explained why I feel the game manages to transcend the genre and enter the all-time greatest games list. The reason is the Beat Bonus (BB): not only do you have to survive the stages and kill the enemies, like in every other brawler game out there, but you can also take advantage of the BB system to link together your acts of violence into one great symphony of destruction.

This post will be a guide for those seeking to unlock the hidden depths of the BB system (no Sengoku 3 guide I have read has dealt with this subject, so I feel this is something worth writing). I will be dividing this up into two sections: tactics and strategy. Tactics will include all the general tips for how to play while amassing your BB, and Strategy will include stage-specific tips on how to ‘link’ the enemies you will encounter there into your BB.

The strategy section will only include the first three stages because beyond those I currently have to concentrate 100% on just surviving and killing badguys. But the first three stages are just wonderful for BBing.

Ok, first of all here’s a quick run-down of how the system actually works:

The Beat Bonus bar can be found on the bottom left of the screen. It partially fills each time you land a hit (the amount of bar filled depends on the type of move landed). It then immediately starts to run down, very quickly. Each subsequent hit, however, will top the bar up further. Once the bar has been filled by a flurry of landed hits it will begin to flash and the Beat Bonus proper will begin. The bar will now run down more slowly than before, giving you more time to land hits to keep it topped up. When the bar runs out, the Beat Bonus ends, and you are presented with a number telling you how many hits you managed to land.

[quick note on notation: I’ll be using ‘A’ for a weapon attack and ‘B’ for an unarmed attack]

Tactics

  1. How to begin your BB
    The most important thing to do straight away is max out your BB bar. Some combos that are good in the middle of a BB are no good at this point as the hits are landed too slowly. So always begin with a very quick sequence such as:

Bx5 -> Dash (Hit) -> Dashing B

That 6 hit combo will easily max out your bar.

I use Falcon and he has a particularly good jumping A move (spinning blade slash) that hits twice. So sometimes, after the Dash (Hit) above I instead following my opponent into the air by dashing and perform a B -> C air combo for three very quick hits.

Using your A (weapon) attacks to max out your bar is generally not a very good idea, the exception being if you are striking multiple enemies at the same time. If you hit three opponents with one slash it will count as three instantaneous hits, so two slashes will fill your bar in no time.

  1. Juggling basics
    If you want a good BB you need to juggle a lot. The enemies being juggled are no threat so you can concentrate on landing the hits. I’m going to refer to enemies being juggled or grounded as “passive” and those on their feet as “active”. The early part of the dash (the part that hits) and your unarmed dashing attack are both launchers, and also your jumping C (the second hit of Falcon’s). A good ‘filler’ combo for the middle of a BB can go something like:

Bx3 -> Dash (Hit) -> Dashing B

If there are two or three active enemies on screen you might want to substitute a weapon attack for a B attack, in order to finish them off more quickly, although be very careful with any particularly slow weapon strike as you might not get time to continue your BB afterwards (I’m thinking Falcon’s last hit of his standing slash chain here). But, in fact it’s probably best to mix in a slash here and there with the above combo as jabs don’t fill the meter that much on their own, especially if you are delaying them to juggle effectively.

Also the hitboxes in Sengoku 3 are tailored for juggling: you can jab and slash enemies way above your head, so get comfortable with the hitboxes.

  1. Juggling advanced
    One very important thing to learn is to change direction during a juggle combo. This can be achieved after striking a passive enemy with a very deep, and high, dashing B. You then have time to turn around before jabbing, and this will hitstun the enemy in the opposite direction. This is incredibly useful for keeping any active enemies who are still on screen in front of you, so you can strike them with a slash if they come in range and add them to your juggle combo (the best situation is to have all four enemies passive and being juggled, and yes you will never face more than 4 enemies in S3).

Also, if an active enemy is sneaking up behind you and you just need to get the hell out of there, follow your juggled enemies into the air with a dashing leap and quickly rip out a B>A combo (again, this works best for Falcon who has a two-hit jumping A). You can then quickly turn around when you land and continue the combo back the other way, so it’s also good for changing sides.

  1. Knock-downs
    These can spoil a BB but they don’t have to. All you have to remember is that, if you knock an enemy down, you will be able to continue your BB on him when he gets up so long as you manage to hit something at least once while he is on the ground. So if you drop an enemy, land a slash on another, and return to the fallen enemy as he gets up, you’ll be able to land a jab before your bar empties.

If YOU get hit by a move that doesnt knock down then no matter, you’ll still have time to continue the BB so long as you had a decent amount of meter. If you’re knocked down then that’s it, combo over.

  1. General manouvring
    Angled dashes are not only effective for general attacking, but they’re great for use in a beat bonus. You’ll have to be dashing all over the place. Also, sometimes it’ll make sense to cancel a move into a dash in the opposite direction. So quickly slash an enemy in front of you, and cancel into a dash away from him. Always be aware of how much life each enemy has as you can’t waste time sending a fresh slash at an enemy who has already died. You’ll have to wait through all the animation and be unable to cancel it. This is made more tricky by the fact that in sengoku 3 enemies see fit to stand up and do a dramatic death-throe before they die. So watch their bars.

Jumps can be useful for begining combos in a beat bonus but to be honest you’re usually better off just dashing in. Though if you have the right range you can crossup really well with a dash-jump slash. This also juggles, works really well with Falcon anyway.

  1. Scenery
    Inanimate scenery is ALWAYS passive and is an absolute must for those seeking to maximise their beat bonuses. It is vital if you’re waiting for enemies to get up, or even to run on screen, and also just generally for maxing out the number of hits in your combo. The absolute number 1 best move to hit scenery with is a dash. Just repeat this over and over if you can. It has the best combination of features for hits in a beat bonus:
  • It does very little damage (so you can land a lot)
  • It tops up your beat bonus gauge really well (much better than a jab, which does comparable damage)

Also keep an eye on your bar as you dash into scenery, you don’t want to be doing it too quickly (as you’ll be wasting hits), just time it so after each hit you just about top up your gauge. Then rush back into the action when enemies become available.

  1. Specials
    Don’t use them too often during beat bonus combos. With falcon, I do sometimes use his Fireball special as it’s quick, but I’ll make sure there’s either one enemy left standing after it or a piece of scenery, as it knocks down. Slower specials that knock down are great for boss battles, and general gameplay, but terrible for Beat Bonusses.

Ok, after all that I feel like having a game. Will return with the Strategy section later! Oh and my Beat Bonus record so far is 233. Happy comboing! :smiley:

I made an error…

If you get knocked down it does not neccesarily spell the end of your BB combo. If your BB bar was full, and you hit something as soon as you stand up, there is time to actually continue the BB combo. But it will usually ruin your combo.

Strategy section to follow soon.

streets of rage 2