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3:05.
Good looking out son
They’ve already been covered/mentioned. The important stuff would make her zooning and footsie better but improving how she can get in and apply pressure is another matter, it’s not like she has dash punches or normals that move her forward.
Without giving her a new tool the easiest option is as Destin mentioned making MK Shunpuu +3 on hit (0 on block). It’s a pretty useless move as it stands atm, frame data is worse than HK version and doesn’t even combo properly.
'cept Ryu’s has a million and one uses.Balrog has easy ways in with a godly c.LP and straight Headbutt reversal > Ultra. Ken I’ll give you but at least his does huge damage after a FA instead of “moderate”. Chun’s is used to go through fireballs and generally stop them from using so many. Sakura’s only way in is from an EX Shunpuu, does it stop the opponent from doing anything? Make them less aggressive? No.
For what’s essentially a “1-use Ultra” Haru Ranman doesn’t do enough damage, if that one way to combo was something that’d happen more often then sure, I’d be okay with it. Also as I have mentioned before Shinkuu Hadouken will make it pretty useless if its damage isn’t buffed (or at least gets some more different uses).
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on a few things. Her ultra is fine IMO if anything they should make it go through fireballs. The Shinkuu will probably replace it completely anyway which shouldn’t bother you considering you aren’t really losing anything. Her combo into Ultra would be a lot more reliable if she had her old footsies. She’s always relied on footsies to get in but now she has bad pokes and a crap fireball so… yeah. But she’s still forced to play her old style. If she were given her old tools back she’d be fine.
im tellin you the shou’s need to go thru fire balls like turn punches. or maybe give the ex version a piece of amor.
It’s all related. Even with the more subtle changes I want for her, which include a faster st.RH, better Hadoken, crossup j.MK (all of which it looks like she got), slightly increased damage output, fixed EX Shouoken, and faster EX Otoshi, it’d still be difficult to get in with her, and any reliable way to do so would require spending meter.
I have no problem with that. I want Sakura to be viable on the strength of her mixups and resets actually doing significant damage when she manages to get in. She’s not very good at applying continual pressure when she gets in (unlike Bison or Abel) so when she can score some damage, it needs to count. Being stronger in general means that against characters like Sagat or Ryu you don’t have to make them guess wrong 4-5 times to win when they guess right 2-3 times and kill you on 50/50 mixups.
That’s not the whole picture though. Sakura has exactly ONE viable Haru Ranman setup. It’s reliable, but costs 25% meter, and scales the Ultra to little additional damage if it’s hit confirmed. It has no properties that make it feasible outside of that setup.
Ryu - As a Ryu main, I can tell you he has at least 5 viable Metsu Hadoken setups, and even more impractical ones. It’s low damage for an Ultra, but the amount of setups perfectly counter balances that. It’s how I want Sakura’s Shinkuu Hadoken to be like. Maybe less setups for more zoning capability.
Sagat - He has more setups than that. Trade TU, f.HK x2 Ultra, AA f.HK Ultra, AA EX TU, Ultra. His fireball pressure can force you to jump. and Tiger Destruction did a hell of a lot of damage.
Rufus - LOL. Not only does he have a ridiculous amount of meterless links and hit confirms to Ultra, they do a ton of damage, cover most situations when he scores a hit, and can be linked off his dive kick to boot. Plus he has the second highest health in the game. You forgot EX Messiah Kick FADC Ultra, which even though it costs 75% meter, is a highly damaging link to Ultra off one of the best reversals in the game used as a hit confirm.
Balrog - True he only has one Ultra setup, and that nerfs the damage by a good amount, but that setup is meterless. That setup is also hit confirmable off the best jab in the game. Plus his Ultra stuffs attacks and phases fireballs, and can link off a standing jab.
Ken - Yeah, his Ultra game isn’t great, but his tools are much better than Sakura’s. He has a meterless 400 damage BnB off an ambiguous crossup (j.HP). Plus, he’s low tier anyway, and his Guren Senpuu Kyaku looks to be a lot more combo friendly. Shinryuken looks to be in the same boat as Haru Ranman. The hit confirms on the setup kill the damage, and it’s only damaging as a punish. I wish Haru Ranman hit as hard.
Chun - Like Abel, Chun’s Houyoku Sen punishes ALL fireballs (except maybe Guile’s LP Sonic Boom) on reaction. It’s got only one reliable setup, but completely shuts down fireball game when she has it. And it still does more damage. Also linkable off a jab.
As the kicker, ALL of these characters have better tools than Sakura. If her Ultra game was more damaging than them, it’d go a long way in making her more viable in the face of 75% of the cast.
oh and another thing about rufus is that he recovers so quick after ultra hes able to continue the pressure because of the knockdown while sakura doesnt have time to do anything after her ultra. she in the position where she has to try and get in again which is never good
When I listed the Ultras my point was that her hit confirmable setup is relatively similar in damage to all the other characters I listed excluding Sagat and Rufus which I stated in my post. That is why I did not list all of each characters setups. Look at those damage numbers listed and you will see my point, the damage on her combo is not bad at all she just needs more ways to get in and actually land it.
Yeah, you stated that Sagat and Rufus did too much damage. My point was that on top of that, all the characters you listed except Ken had more reliable ways to land more damage on their Ultras. On top of that, even if Sakura was better in terms of Ultras than ALL of those characters, she’s still not as good a character when all her tools are taken into account.
What is this obsession with hoping she “won’t play like Ryu”? Some of you guys are too defensive.
Ryu is about zoning and controlling space because of his quick fireballs and dp which is something that Sakura can’t do because she doesn’t have those options. Would taking away her resets all of a sudden make her a zoning character?
It’s just a gimmick that leads to cheap wins and the only reason it isn’t generally looked down upon is cos it takes up about 70% of her overall offense. Getting rid of the resets and buffing her current moveset is the best way to improve her.
When have I argued that she is better than anyone? I’ve been stating that she is NOT GOOD. What I’ve been stressing is that increasing damage on her Ultra will NOT MAKE HER BETTER. And on top of that she DOESN’T NEED MORE DAMAGE ON HER ULTRA ANYWAY. Also, I’m not referencing reliable ways to land Ultra. All I was referencing was her damage on her setups compared to the damage other characters do with similar setups. You’re a thick-headed idiot who has very little reading comprehension.
LOL, considering you can’t grasp this very simple concept that I’m presenting to you, I’d say you’re the thick headed idiot.
I counter your statement with simply this:
Her having a better Ultra 1 would do this:
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Give her higher damage option off her resets to EX Tatsu.
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Give your opponent a reason to actually take her Ultra into account.
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Make her better in the instance that she’ll finish off opponents quicker, and won’t have to rely on her risky reset game quite as many times to win.
It would NOT:
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Make her overpowered
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Make her significantly better than other characters with good Ultras
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Be too much to ask, considering how hard it is to get in with her.
Combined with other changes, some of which she has, other which I’m hoping to see (I listed them), she’d be a viable character even though she has trouble getting in. And she still probably wouldn’t be top tier, which is perfectly fine with me.
So WHY NOT give her more damage on her Ultra 1, so that both of her Ultras are viable.
Now, WTF don’t you get about that?
I’m sorry but I just can’t agree with this, because that’s the thing about Sakura that prevents her from just being another Ryu clone in this game. The resets is the only really solid thing that she brings to the table to set her apart from other people in the cast, especially Ryu. In no other game since she’s been made has she ever fought similarly to Ryu and if she did, then there really isn’t much point in her being added to the roster in the first place. What the girl needs is something to add onto her options rather than taking the only “real working” aspect of her design away in favor of something other characters can already do relatively easily. The gimmick is what makes SFIV Sak; just like the high damage grapples and simple yet effective knockdown game is Gief’s and Ryu’s strong and solid zoning game.
The problem is that vanilla IV Sakura is that her general moveset is somewhat underdeveloped; hence why we have issues like her EX Shouoken and Shunpukyaku getting her punished 15-25% of the time they’re used, even on hit, and a relatively weak ultra as far as usage is concerned, as well as other crippling issues. The thing that she has going for her is the “gimmick” reset game which translates to an effective stun game. The whole “reset” thing isn’t new to SF, so I don’t get the reasoning in calling hers “cheap” and needing to be removed. A tool like that is the only thing that’s keeping her from being downright useless in vanilla, and really should be refined and combined on the fixes she needs to compete with the likes of Ryu, without, you know, sorta becoming a second Ryu in the first place. Things along the lines of dealing with turtling/zoning without meter in order to get in and her pokes not being out-prioritized by virtually everyone else in the cast.
Sak’s reset game when done properly puts her right in the driver’s seat of the match and shows the player’s ability to keep the opponent off balance enough to score wins. It shows constant execution more than anything else really, so it’s not the matter of it being cheap, because it sure isn’t brain-dead. She doesn’t need to be totally reworked, simply buffed tighter so that her general strategy can be applied just as well as Ryu’s zoning with less inconveniences.
Did that guy seriously call Sakura’s reset game “cheap”? That stuff requires much more work than most of the crap a lot of other characters have, and it’s not ever guranteed to work. You want cheap, let’s talk about Rufus and his over 9000 Ultra setups, a lot of them requiring a whopping zero EX.
You’re really hopeless. When did I say that she would be overpowered if she had more damage on her ultra? If they increased her base damage on Ultra to 500 she still wouldn’t do over 400s of damage in her typical combos into Ultra. It will not make her better unless it becomes overpowered in damage (Rufus and Sagat). It is already “to be feared”, just as you would fear Rogs Ultra. Rogs does less mind you.
I have no idea why you keep assuming that I’m saying things that I’m not. All I’m saying is giving an Ultra more damage when you CAN’T EVEN GET IN TO LAND IT will not help her. On top of that even if they added damage to it you wouldn’t see much more due to combo scaling. In other words, giving her Ultra more damage is NOT GOING TO HELP HER! Like I said earlier it’d be wiser to ask for some utility on it that your new Ultra doesn’t have like bypassing fireballs. Give her footsie tools back, CVS2 Sakura and A3 Sakura didn’t have any problems getting in because they could play footsies. SF4 Sakura can’t, yet she has to try. And if you actually obtain good footsies in SSF4 you’ll see that you don’t need any more damage than you already have.
Which is exactly the problem. Sagat, Ryu, Akuma, Balrog, Rufus etc all have reliable and solid options for their offense that don’t rely on guessing games. If you have a couple meters with Sak, all you need is one hit confirm and then reset over and over and over. Forget zoning, baiting and trying to actually play Street Fighter by outplaying the opponent, all you need to do is make them guess. To me that’s worse than Rufus’ infinite ways to combo into ultra because they can be prevented. Once you’re in a Sakura reset loop, depending on your character, you’re virtually defenseless.
That’s my point. Develop those underdeveloped moves so that the resets don’t become necessary anymore.
Except Sak is a rushdown character, she needs to get in to set them up, much like Rufus and Gief. And much like Rufus and Gief, once she sets it up it’s just guessing, sure. The interesting part is getting into that position, setting up the first reset, and for Sak, that isn’t easy.
All those characters rely on guessing games… especially Rufus.
j0ns: are you serious or are you trolling?
Alvien: the big difference between Rog’s ultra and Sakura’s come in application and also the situation after the ultra.
Rog’s Ultra:
- Does low damage when juggled with.
- Combos after anything that can lead into headbut.
- Combos from heabutt itself which easy easy to use to go through fireballs, or EX Headbut as an invincible move.
- Goes through fireballs by itself, and has long reach.
- Can combo after his overhead.
- Puts the opponent into the corner, which is a really bad thing against Boxer, it also lets Boxer safejump or charge meter twice.
Sakura’s Ultra:
- Does low damage.
- Combos after anything that combos into ex shunpu.
- Can’t be used as anti-fireball unless really close such as after block c.mk x hado for example.
- No anti-air potential.
- Does not carry to corner, does not give safejump, lets her whiff lk shunpu for meter.
- Does not do significally more damage than she does when going for a reset.
When judging an ultra you can’t just look at damage by itself since that only tells half the tale.
You have to look setups into ultra, ultra damage, situation after the ultra, how the ultra changes the matchup when it becomes avaialble and uses of the ultra by itself.
In my opinion Sakura’s ultra is a bad ultra in all of those areas which is why I very seldom use it.
Rog’s ultra like I mentioned puts them in the corner, Rog is bound to get additional damage out than what he got from landing the ultra. It’s very difficult to get out of the corner against Rog without eating a bunch of damage before you succeed for most characters.
Ryu can get in with air tatsu to put some pressure on if he wants to or just work his fireball game on a midscreen srk fadc ultra.
In the corner he can safejump or do crossup tatsu mixups which is Ryu’s strongest mixup game.
Sagat’s ultra puts them far away from Sagat, it also gives him one meaty tiger shot.
Getting in on Sagat is difficult to do without losing health in the process, Sagat’s range game is his strongest trait.
Rufus has not only many different and reliable ways to combo into it, but also allows him to safejump afterwards.
The bit about him being able to safejump is huge because that means he’s allowed to put you into divekick pressure afterwards which is where he gets most of his damage from.
Chun’s Ultra is a strong repellant against many “spammable” specials because it’s very fast and has long reach.
Many specials that were pretty safe to throw out eariler, not just fireballs, become dangerous after the ultra joins the party.
As a juggle it only works on half the cast, against some characters it puts Chun in the corner after the ultra finishes, she does not get a chance to safejump or even jump out of the corner without eating a shoryuken.
It also doesn’t do very much damage as a juggle unless you manage to combo into it with low revision.
sidenote: I’m able to ultra lp sonicboom on anticipation/reaction on a good day.
By that I mean I am expecting that an lp boom might be coming, I see it, I do ultra, not just doing ultra on twitch.
Sakura gets the most damage off of her ex shunpu resets and her jumpin okizeme, her ultra does not give her access to either of those.
Her ultra being available does not remove any options the oppoenent has, and it doesn’t do enough damage to sacrifice her regular bnb’s.
Wrong. Rog’s Ultra, aside from being a meterless setup that hit confirms off the best jabs in the game, positions Rog in his optimal range. You in the corner, him able to hover right outside your range and in the range of his c.HK. It’s scary for that reason alone.
What use does Sak’s Ultra 1 have outside of damage? None.
Did I say you said it’d be OP? I’m saying it wouldn’t be regardless of what you’re saying dum-dum. As such, there’s not really any reason against adding more damage to it. Did I say that was all she needed? Hell no. But I listed the other things she needed, and stated multiple times that as long as it didn’t take as many combos/resets as it does to kill someone, her problems getting in wouldn’t be quite as hard to deal with. As a Sakura player, that is. Which you’re not.
Oh, you mean the stuff that I already mentioned, that she already seems to have, and that still wouldn’t make her that great. Her damage output is still low.
CvS2 Sak had a dive kick, the ability to roll, and a high damage option in A-Groove ShoShoSho hilariousness. A3 Sak did substantial damage off her Shouoken juggles, had custom combos, and her Shouoken had priority. All those on top of her better footsies. Yes, I play Sak in those games too.
Which is why I say that on top of the faster s.RH, crossup j.MK and better fireball, which going by the Vegas Fight Club she got, a faster EX Otoshi, a fixed EX Shouoken, and slightly better damage output would make her viable in spite of the troubles she’s still probably going to have getting in. One facet of which would be making Ultra I do more damage. Hopefully Ultra II will have better setups.
Because I don’t see her getting a dive kick, or custom combos.