Great info.
I would say thought that your naming convention seems counter intuitive. When you say “Move” _ “Unsafe,” the natural train of associates would be to associate the move with being unsafe… which is the opposite of what you want people thinking. To be honest, I didn’t figure it out until I read the follow-up posts.
That’s not necessarily true. If you jump-in with a normal your landing has a certain amount of recovery time. I’m assuming it’s 4 in this game. That seems to be the magic number.
About EX SPD: It has start-up invincibility and, wait for it . . . 4 frames of start-up. So that’s why that move hits.
EDIT: Kyokuji, you keep saying FP hits late but I’m not sure I understand what you mean. At first you I thought you meant deep. Correct me if I’m wrong, but if both moves are meatied, then it doesn’t matter what you use.
Are you sure about this? I thought it was also depended on the recovery frames upon landing from a jump in attack (trip guard).
If for example, it takes 2 frames to recovery upon landing, then something with 1 frame start up would be able to hit you wouldn’t it?
Yeah if both attacks are meated at the very end of the jump in, then it shouldn’t matter.
I think what he’s trying to say is that HP has longer active frames than HK.
Which is incorrect anyways, 'cause HK has 2 more active frames than HP.
I think Kyokuji is forgetting to consider trip guard. And since the Snake is making the jump-in a meaty attack, it doesn’t matter which actual attack he uses; all that matters is that Ryu has a hitting frame sticking out on the opponent’s wake up.
Thanks for this informative post, Snake.
Does anybody have information about tripguard in this game? Does it exist? How many frames are you stuck unable to do anything? Can you cancel the tripguard with a special/super/ultra?
Yeah, I meant FP hits deeper than jump RH.
I would think that it would matter though. The lower you are, the faster you’ll land and be able to block whatever it is that they stick out.
I think the confusion is that the moves are listed by character, but the denotations refer to the attacking character, where the listed character is the defender. Perhaps a less confusing method would be to note whether the listed reversal is safe or not.
Regardless, this information is useful. It shows that the window of execution against certain characters can be more lenient, and while any meaty attack can technically be safe, a bigger window means more options for the attacker.
Thanks for the very informative list!
Uh, I never knew such thing as ‘safe’ jump-in’s existed. Just when I thought easy reversal window (which I still don’t fully understand how lenient this is. I just know I’m too accustomed to 3S timing and it’s messing me up), made jump-in’s completely useless.
Just goes to show how much more I need to learn, before bitching about the game.
I was able to find and watch some examples of safe jump-in’s for SF2, but is there a video of safe jump-in’s in SF4? I just learn so much better when watching (well, who doesn’t :P).
Hmm, I’ll try out the safe jumps with different normals when I have more time.
After getting some rest, I realized how confusing the list can be to read. I wrote it with less than 2 hours of sleep. Hopefully it’s a lot less confusing now.
I believe jump LP hits the deepest, so try testing with that.
Gen’s EX Oga is invincible on startup and let’s you escape on wakeup if you just use it to get away instead of the kick followup.
I dont think this game has safe jump ins
The way I’m reading this list is:
safe jump-ins limit the opponent’s reversal options on wakeup. Remember H-S-T-U for the OP list (hit-safe-trade-unsafe); it refers to Ryu’s state after the opponent attempts [insert reversal here] on a safe jump-in. H is the worst state against safe jump-ins, because Ryu will beat this attack cleanly on a safe jump-in, and U is the best against opponents who do safe jump-ins.
Did I get it right?
/facepalm
Actually “H” means the reversal will beat the jump-in meaty. :wonder:
Define Meaty?
As I understand it, ‘meaty’ isn’t a special property of an normal attack.
‘Meaty’ is used to descibe attacks that BOTH
a) have a large number of frames (long time period) where the attack is active (will connect with the opponent)
AND
b) have high priority over other attacks (will beat another lower priority attack connecting at the same time).
So… one could use any attack to jump-in on an opponent that attempts a reversal on get-up. BUT the priority of your jump-in attack will determine your success. Obviously ‘meaty’ attacks should fair best as they have offer the most generous number of active frames AND have high priority.
Meaty would cease to be a useful definition for this topic if the same reversal has varying priority amongst each character’s meaty attacks. In this case the list would need to be much more specific comparing outcomes between different jump-in attacks on each reversal. No?
AMIRITE?
Like any fighting game, there are a set of unchanging rules for each unique situation. If we each understand something different by a definition we can’t understand each other at all.
You’ve got the definition wrong. From the wiki:
Hey OP, you have this chart here with all of the letters next to the moves, but why don’t you just put the full words instead of the letters? Like:
Abel
Change of Direction: Loses
Change of Direction (EX): Absorbs, Blocked
Wheel Kick: Loses
Marseilles Roll: Loses
Marseilles Roll (EX): Avoids
Falling Sky: Loses
Falling Sky (EX): Whiffs
Tornado Throw: Loses
Tornado Throw (EX): Hits
Heartles: Blocked
Soulless: Blocked
No reason to do just the letters when there’s lots of space, and the words are a lot easier to understand.
The definition on the wiki appears to come from the help pages in HDRemix.
Provided the opponent doesn’t have a move that is active immediately on get-up one doesn’t have to use a meaty attack for your safe jump-in at all. You’re hitting the opponent first so priorities don’t come into it. Right???
Like the help pages in HDRemix state, jump-in light kicks and punches are useful because they remain active all the time you’re in the air. In SFIV the active frames of jump-in light P & K are limited. I wonder why this is?
I just want to know what the good options for jumping in are, and how cross-ups are any different, if at all.