Thats true now… It wasn’t before. He’s edited his post and reversed the nomenclature.
The only specials I listed as “V” were the teleports and Abel’s roll. If the move is actually capable of hitting then I labeled it as “W.”
That would take too long. :wonder:
Haha, in this case I am guilty as charged!
:clown:
Wrong. The recovery time from landing after an air attack (trip guard) allows for non-instant moves to punish the opponent.
Wrong. See above.
What the hell does “not hit as late” even mean? Every move can be done at the end of the jump. If you’re talking about the duration of the active hit frames, then you’re wrong again 'cause HK has 2 more frames than HP.
- Wrong. See above.
- Wrong. You forgot about invincibility for some EX moves.
WTF? See above.
Again WTF? LK has more active frames than LP.
Exactly.
_
consider including Sirlin’s Tutorial Video for ST Safe Jumping as a reference:
[media=youtube]t8dD3K2_Pz4&feature=related[/media] (5:49)
Can you elaborate more on this so that I (and others) can understand better?
I understand what trip guard is and I know that it is present in SF4 … that is you safe and able to block low attacks as you land from a jump. (unable to do this in ST and older)
I don’t understand what you mean by “recovery time” or “non-instant” moves. 3 frames or more startup maybe?
When you do a jumping attack, you will land, then you will have a brief moment of vulnerability time while you are on the ground (recovery time). You are able to block only after that recovery time has passed.
If I remember correctly: In cvs2, if you attacked in the air, then you will have this recovery time when you land. If you didn’t do anything in the air, then you do not have this recovery time upon landing. I haven’t tested this in SF4 yet, but I’m sure there’s recovery time if attacked in air. Not sure if SF4 is like cvs2 if you don’t attack in the air though.
Instant move is something that has 0 start up frames. So non-instant is anything that has at least 1 start up frame.
Someone mentioned in this thread that only 0 start up frame moves can punish safe jump ins, but that is incorrect - because this assumes that the person in the air has no recovery time upon landing. If a reversal shoryuken hits on the 3rd frame, and the recovery time from landing in the air is 4 frames, then the shoryu would hit.
I believe this is true for SF4.
I use this all the time to throw my opponent…he blocks expecting a jump attack and I get the throw immediately on land, before he can tech it.
Its a gamble technique, so I try to use it only when I’m pretty sure it will work.
Well, conceding all of that, this game must have way more recovery frames on landing than previous games then because I’ve never heard of a 4 frame DP being unsafe-jumpable before. In ST, only Blanka’s rolls and Ken’s FP DPs were like that because they had instant start-up, and just about everything was safe-jumpable in A3 except X-Dhalsim’s yoga inferno.
It would explain why I keep getting thrown while trying to c. LK when landing from an empty jump, whereas in previous games, it would’ve snuffed the attempt.
Not gonna argue with you, since you seem to know a lot more about the topic than me. A question though.
I’m assuming the deeper you are, the faster you land, and the less time they have to reversal you? Does jump RH have enough active frames for it to hit as deep as jump LK does? Visually, it doesn’t look like it does, but you’ve got the frame data.
All I hear is, “Thanks Dan’s Student, for pointing out the mistake!”
…
:lovin:
Hehe, oh you devil :arazz:.
Ok, let’s step back here.
The Concept of a "Safe Jump"
If you haven’t already done so, watch that Sirlin vid that someone posted in this thread. A Safe Jump implies that you perform a jumping attack at the very end of your jump in. This is the essence of a safe jump.
Look at 6:50 of the Sirlin vid. Look how low to the ground Ken is. Ken was kicking in the air at the very last moment before he landed.
Any attack you do in the air can be done at the very end of your jump. Think about that. It makes sense doesn’t it? The difference to note is that a move like jumping jab usually stays out longer than jumping roundhouse. Thus, it’s harder to time the roundhouse to hit at the end of the jump. You have to be more precise in timing. Even if roundhouse was only 1 frame active, you could still use it at the very end of your jump - but this would require godlike timing.
Also note that you have to do this while your opponent is just barely getting up. Hence Safe Jumps are often difficult to time properly. This is why people have Set Ups for safe jumps. Someone mentioned that after a Chun throw, you’re in perfect distance/timing of a HP safe jump (don’t know if it’s accurate) - but that’s just an example on techniques to get a guaranteed safe jump.
So you keep saying that X is “deeper” than Y, but if safe jumps involve attacking at the final moment of the jump, how much deeper can you get? **You’re already as deep as possible. **
I don’t see how this has anything to do with safe jump-ins. Empty jump means you jumped and landed without performing any attack. Tripguard would apply. Safe jump-ins involve performing a late attack in the air, which would deactivate tripguard.
A “reversal” occurs whenever someone performs a move on the exact frame of their wake-up (or hit/block stun). It has nothing to do with whether it counter-hits or even hits at all. There’s nothing you can do to affect your opponent’s “reversal timing” short of punching them in the shoulder in real life.
That’s what she sai–oh, nevermind.
Good stuff OP, interesting data.
Thought this might be pertinent to the discussion.
Great information. You can probably bait reversals with empty jump-ins.
:mad:
Is there a way in training mode to set up a record dummy that will do a reversal on wake up? Or is the only way to practice safe jumps are during matches?
Okay I’ve just re-read this entire thread and I’m right in line with R | C.
The thread creator had a great idea with this, but I haven’t seen anyone post any info on what the timing is on landing recovery.
Truthfully if you know how many frames landing recovery is you can figure all of this out via a frame data guide.
its like one frame, versus none. So you can sweep people if they attack in the air.
Really? It feels longer than that.
Landing recovery is 4 frames.