^ have to agree. Ryu has very very little spaces in which he is at advantage VS Fei. I guess at C.MK he does have a very small advantage. Inside that Fei gets priority plus better mix-ups. Outside C.MK he has Rekka and C.MP. Even outside of there there isnt a good range for FBs. From outside of max rekkaken distance, FBs become easy to react to, and you dont want to risk eating a rekka chain.
Man, the more I think about this match-up the more it seems BS. I havent actually played a Fei yet who I felt really exploited his advantages in the match, but theoretically it does seem Fei is at advantage at pretty much any range.
Yup that what it seems like, Fei’s optimal range is the whole screen lol At least with Ryu. Im gonna look up how Ken deals with Fei as he is a much more in your face character than Ryu. Ryu being in his grill still would not put him at any advantage, it just seems that if Ryu is anywhere else there is not much he could do.
His only hope is to whiff punish and Fei crHP has the same reach as Ryu’s sweep, so you would have to be in a spot where your sweep misses. Otherwise you will either get hit, you block and get pushed back, or you will get whiff punished yourself.
Ryu probably has to be more liberal with his focus attack, specifically level 1 (lvl 2 would be better)and then dashing forward. Then he can go for a throw/DP mixup. If Fei techs the throw he will be pushed back a litte more than Ryu (I think) allowing Ryu not to be forced to the corner so easily (or at least not as quickly)
edit: Actually I think Fei naturally goes back further than Ryu whether he tech’d or is tech’d. But that is off of less than 5 mins of testing.
abel is a bad matchup for ryu, because abel does all his damage by getting inside. since, ryu doesnt really have a surefire way of keeping abel out, most abels will get in on you. yes, players like daigo make this match look much easier because of tons of experience (vs shiro), and great game play. but, if you dont have a ton of experience with this match, it’s really hard.
imo, the match seems a lot closer up until abel gets U1. then you cannot throw fireball from anywhere on the screen without taking a really big risk. for instance, one mistake vs a roll and you are losing half your life.
i dont think ryu is at a big disadvantage (probably even) vs cammy. it might be 5.5 for cammy because she can tkcs over a cr.MK and do a shit load of damage. also, she ruins ryu wake up game (which is one of his strengths). her EX SA can go under FB. Her u1 can go through FB. the problem against cammy is, if she can knock you down, you will have a shit load of problems. most tier list have cammy 4-6, but i think this is only because there arent enough cammy players out there.
lol I was expecting more than that. Everyone gets their damage by getting inside. Once Abel gets ultra hes not gonna hit you with it unless he’s outside. Throw fireballs only if you are inside. From outside all Abel has is wheel kick which you can just DP it. Well he could roll but all you have to do is throw. Abel can be easily out footsie’d.
edit:thinking about fireballing up close can be dangerous as well with fadc so like I said wth do I know.
I think Abel/Ryu was considered even in SF4 and neither of them changed much in super but Ryu did get nerfed while Abel did not. While I think its possible that it could be a bad match up I just dont see it. I really dont see how either one has an advantage. If Ryu gets a KD, he creates alot of pressure because of Abel’s bad wake-up.
Abel creates pressure off his step kick and ambiguous roll taking a risk every time. There will either be no damage dealt or Big damage will be dealt, but the question is, who will it be on.
I dont really know about Cammy. Only time I use her is fucking around in training mode. Just from match observation, I find her kinda similiar to Abel gameplay. Her tkcs= Abel’s step kick. Only difference I see is she doesnt have a threat of an untechable grab. But just the threat of a reg grab seems enough for her to land those frame traps into combos.
But like I’ve said before, I dont really know anything about match-ups. In SF4 I only bothered to learn two characters and that was Ryu, for old times sake, and Abel since he was new and different.
Personally whenever I fight a Abel while using Ryu, unless thet are in a class better than me I usually dont have much problem winning. When I fight as Abel vs Ryu I find it much more even so wth do I know.
Nothing like agreeing with a belligerent idiot to lend more strength to your argument.
Lol, people warned my about the Ryu forums. Keep living in your fantasy land where the reason you lose with one of the best characters is never your fault.
first abel damage output for taking a risk is huge.
you have to spam normals and react to rolls. abel does massive damage with an attack. u1 doesnt only work from outside, it just means you cant throw fireballs from outside, you can also combo into it very easily for huge damage. so if abel gets a life lead and u1, he no longer has to take the same risks because ryu has to come to him, and cannot throw fireballs.
my point was that it is very hard to zone abel. one mistake and you lose a quarter of your life minimum.
after step kick or ambiguous roll - if the roll gets past a throw, what can ryu really punish with? if abel gets off a step kick, everything is in his favor. same goes for roll. what are ryu’s biggest damage counters? throw? get lucky with mash dp into ultra - if you miss you are losing much more than it’s worth.
i think the reason this is in abel favor is damage output. he just does a lot more damage against any mistake than ryu does.
imo, it’s all about tricks. once you learn how to block/tech and deal with all blankas little tricks, it’s not nearly as bad (at least you know how to punish his bs). but it’s very boring because neither blanka nor ryu have much they can do to be too agressive. this has probably been discussed in the other threads about matchups…
Abel cant even continue his patented step kick into ultra combo on Ryu unless he happens to catch him standing.Lucky for Ryu his footsie poke is a crouching MK. If Abel lands that step kick he cant even combo anything on crouching Ryu.
I’ll take it that you are exagerating about Abel damage output taking a quarter of your life on one mistake. If your not well I’d like to know what is being done that can take that much health. That would mean 4 combos and Ryu is on the ground snoring? I’ll have to try find that in training mode.
After a step kick Abel is at +1. How does that put everything in his favor? He has to guess just as much as Ryu does. Thats like saying a blocked Solar Plexus puts everything in Ryu’s favor. He will either reg throw, command throw, ex command throw, or attack trying to keep you from running away. Which one will he do?
So Ryu either has to block, which beats strikes, tech/jump/back dash/DP wish beats throw, or jump/back dash/DP to beat command throw and you can add throw for the ex version. Which one will he do? Thats what Abel has to think about everytime. Command grab being the riskiest, he will eat huge damage.
Now I think Abel needs a slight damge output adjustment, but definetly not for Ryu’s sake. It would be for the other low stamina characters.I bet you get just as much damage on Abel after you score a knockdown on him that he does for whatever he punishes you for your mistake. And thats only half of the mistake Abel makes. The other being predictable with a tornado throw and you making him whiff. It gets punished just as hard as a whiffed DP + what he has to deal with on wake-up afterwards.
I made a giant post a few days ago but lost it b4 posting, got angry and gave up replying on why i think those matchups I mentioned were bad for Ryu.
Imo basically there’s 3 situations in the game; the ranged situation, when the opp. is pressing you at throw range (including jumpins while you are fallen) and when you are pressing the opp. at throw range (including jumpins while he is fallen).
ie: Fei´s standing game against Ryu (lets say its an A level) is better than Ryu´s standing game against Fei (B level), and Fei´s pressure game against Ryu (A level) is much better than Ryu´s against Fei (C level). In the end imo Feilong is stronger in the Fei vs Ryu matchup.
So taking in consideration the ranged game, and the melee game while attacking and while defending, imo Ryu have disadvantages over all those chars. Obviously its a very personal point of view and u guys may disagree.
imo, anytime you have a frame advantage, you are at advantage. SPS is not at advantage because you are at neutral.
when you wrote ryu’s options vs step kick, the only ryu option you gave that does any damage is a mashed dp - this is obviously a bad choice because abel does over 1/4 your health if you whiff. so ryu’s best options are all passive which gives abel a big advantage. he guess right you lose 1/4 of your like, he guesses wrong nothing.
the combos i am thinking of is simply: cr.HP x falling sky which is 270.
and step kick, FP, COD: which is 280. the fp misses if ryu is ducking. i dont think most ryus are crouching after step kick though because you can’t tech command thows - and 1 bar exTT beat cr. attacks.
i am sure there are better ones, but these were just simple examples.
for his simple ultra combo: cr.HP x U1 is 514.
with ex bars abel can do 300+ for a whiffed DP or any mistake.
for difference in bnb ultra combos, ryu dp fadc u1 is only worth 398 and costs 2 bars.
maybe i am missing some stuff, so i am open to any ideas to beating up on abel when he has u1; just in my experience this is a very tough matchup.
Sure if your frame advantage was something like 4 frames. Abels fastest move is 4 frames. Advantage of 1 frame is literally nothing. It could change to -1 and nothing would change. SPS and step kick both put you in their grill, where they have to decide how to answer for whats coming next.
Uh no. Watch some matches of Abel vs Ryu. Making Abel whiff Ryu’s best hope. He has all day to punish. You do that by jumping. If you really think Ryu’s only real option is DP and everything else is passive well I can see why you personally struggle w/ the match up but that doesnt make it a bad match-up for Ryu. If that were true than why wouldnt Abel have nothing but favorable matchups lol. What Ryu has to face everyone has to face. Thats Abels playstyle.
I never pay attention to how much damage combos do I just worry about whats the best combo so I couldnt tell you what would be Ryu’s comparable whiff punish. But its a whiff punish so expect some good damge.And then after being punished Abel has to deal w/ wake up pressure.
Of course you cant tech command throws, the correct answer for them is to jump. Ryu has a no bar Dragon punch that beats all attacks and throws. 1 bar ex TT loses to jump, throw, back dash and DP. Dp beats strikes, throws and jumps. Both are equally as risky.
cr.Fierce into Ultra is a simple combo but if they are landing this combo on you outside of comboing into then you are really playing reckless or are panicking. When its combo’d into it requires ex bars as well and not to mention the 1 frame link involved and aslo the damage scaling comes into play.
Well like I said I dont know ish about match-ups and I dont even know what my point is trying to rebuttal lol.Believe me Im not trying to win an argument or anything. I do think I know about Ryu/Abel weaknesses so I guess Im forming my opinion based on that. Im not trying to make it look like Abel weaknesses make it in Ryu’s favor or anything. I think its even.
Now if you ask me to list what are Ryu’s weaknesses, I wouldnt know what to say lol. Maybe I would say that his safe poke (fireball) is not as effective as most everyones safe poke (dash punch, scissor kick,rekka,etc) It could use a buff to allow it to compete better. There are lots of anti-fireball moves in the game that while they are not easy to do, they are not terribly hard either.
there are just my opinions:
frame advantage is advantage. whether its +1 or +4 on block, you still have the edge providing you have follow up moves that have the potential to trap the opponents normals. in the case of abel you have a grappler with frame advantage, right next to you. if you dont think there is a big difference between + and - try using st.LK as part of your block strings with ryu. right away you can see how big a deal this is…
abel’s s.HP has startup of 4, so if abel does step kick (ryu blocks) then abel does dash to s.HP and ryu presses a button while crouching here’s what happens: unless it’s a crazy mashed jab (it would have to come out on the first available frame which is not reliable), abel will get a counter hit and about a 1/4 of your health (provided he does COD after). this is pretty big imo. the counter hit also makes abel’s combo easier to do.
not to mention that step kick is very fast, and +4 on hit with dash.
if you want to debate that sps as good as abel’s step kick, that’s fine. i dont think it is, but that is my opinion. that 1 frame advantage leads to frame traps…
i agree that making him whiff is ryu’s best hope. the options i listed were just your original options: your kind of answering yourself here. i am just calling moves that are escape moves and not direct counters - passive.
i dont think ryu’s only option is dp. i even said that was probably the worst idea. the problem is, all the other options are escape options (passive) that can lead to huge damage from abel. which is my entire point about the damage output.
also, i’m pretty sure most abels are using OS for the backdash before they go for a command throw etc… this makes backdashing a shitty option too. leaving jump as the best passive option and still can be punished…
abel has very few unfavorable matchups now that he has added breathless. the only characters that have advantage on abel are the ones that can keep him out easily, or are just better inside. ryu is not one of these characters.
you asked what combos i was talking about that had high damage outputs
then you say you dont care about damage output:
i was using cr.HP x ultra as an example.
i am not an abel main but, abel can get cr.HP x ultra from ducking ryu tatsu, a whiffed DP, etc… there is no one frame link for this one. step kick into s.HP is one frame link - i guess this is what you are talking about?
abel can also easily get into u1 for massive damage by going through a fireball, or using cr.HP as anti air.
the combo versions to get into u1 are not all 1-frame either since you can start with, for example, cr.MK x COD FADC cr.HP x ultra
as for throwing fireballs at close range it can be done but it’s risky since abel can FA into TT and start mix ups. plus other options…
also, abel doesnt always have to step kick, he can get tricky with dash into throw, which can also be a pain.
i just feel with all of ryu’s nerfs and abels huge dmg output, that this match has gotten better for abel since vanilla.
if you feel that the match is even, cool, i am not challenging that. this means you must be good at it :). it would be cool if you posted some of your stuff here because most of the matchup write ups are outdated or just flat out wrong.
Well like you said its an opinion, we have different ones. IMO there is a differnece between + and -, just not at +1 and -1. I do in fact use st.LK in my block strings to not against Abel because you cant tech a command grab. Shoto vs Shoto I use a crLP into st.LK pause for about 2 more frames, then a finish my block string w/ a crLP plinked w/ LK. If they are mashing DP I will block it, despite the fact the st.LK put me at -1. I picked that up watching Fuudo.
If Ryu press a button while crouching and got hit w/ the st.HP well Ryu just F’d up. That also means Abel just took a guess that you was going to jump out or do something else besides block. You know what happens if Abel goes for the standing Fierce but Ryu decides to just block right?
Nah we just have difference of opinion. +1 can lead to frame traps, it could Lead to a trade as well as Abels fastest normal is 4 frames and Ryu’s fastest normal is 3 frames. So that +1 puts them even. If he didnt have that +1 then Ryu will always beat Abel after a step kick.
As far as I know those are all the options you have but maybe there is more Im not aware of. You call them escape/passive options I guess you can label them how you feel. I just view them as the answers I have to do. Personally I dont view jumping over a fireball as an escape option just as how you anser a fireball.
DP is a non passive option. So would be throw correct? So would be cr Jab. Those are your non passive options. After a step kick Abels will probably go for a delayed throw hoping you will DP. They delay it enough to block Ryu’s 3 frame DP. If Ryu thinks they will do this he can simply answer with a crouching jab. Lucky for him, it happens to have the same start up frames as his reversal so he can do it in place of DP.
If you do your “passive” options, the recovery of TT is so bad that you can follow your passive options with “non passive” options. Just like a after whiffed DP.
Which os is that?
.
Breathless is overated especially so vs Ryu. or at least that is the concensus. It could probably use a damage nerf. Personally I see Breathless gave Abel an answer against those players who would just neutral jump slightly ahead of him because he had no answer for that. Otherwise its used as a punish and cant be combo’d into. But I only used it for like the 1st couple of weeks and went back to Souless.
No I asked which combo was taking a quarter of your life and you listed the ones that Abel will land as a result of a mistake you made. If Abel does that otherwise he will be punishede. crHP by itself is unsafe. crHp on block even after canceling into a chosen special is still unsafe. Abel has to burn 2 meters to make it safe.
I NEVER said I dont care about damage output. I said that I dont pay attention to it. If you would have asked me how much damage crHP to Falling sky does. I wouldnt have been able to tell you. If you asked my how you punish a whiffed DP my asnwer would have been a cr.HP into falling sky.
The only reason I mentioned it was to say, " Off the top of my head, I dont know which of Ryu’s whiff punish combos is comparable to 260." I suppose I could go into training room and give you a proper rebuttal. I was being lazy. I have no idea how you came to think that I didnt care about damgage output?
All off of mistakes. As for easily getting Ultra thru a fireball. I think you would find it not so easy if you start playing Abel.
Trust me Im the last person you should ask about match-ups. Im trying to learn them thats why I asked for yalls thoughts on why you see certain ones as bad ones. Onlything I would be able to say is the fight is like controlled chaos. Abel is constantly trying to read you.
For ex: He just landed a blocked step kick into TT. He takes a mental note that you answered w/ block so you got thrown. Now he has to decide what you will choose next. Seeing that blocking failed you, He will probably predict that you will try to evade next time.But of course the opponent might predict your prediction. Rinse and repeat. Its all Mind Games
Well i asked you to elaborate and you did. The simplified version was damge output of Abel is too great. If Ryu got a damage boost, will the match-up become even in your eyes? Ryu will still have to deal with everything he had to before which you seem to think its too damaging and it still would be. The same mistakes would get you the same damage. Im gonna look later on what damage Ryu’s whiff combo does. I’ve done it many times before. I just dont make an effort to know the numbers I mainly concern myself w/ the actual combo.
Anyways to post on topic, you have to take Daigo into consideration when talking about Ryu as he plays him like he should be played. Just like you have to take Mago/Fei into consideration. Tier talk is just numbers. It really has nothing to do with nothing. They just put numbers on the bad/good match-ups to decide who has the least bad match ups according to the numbers. Also the numbers differ based on how bad the bad match ups are(6-4.7-3,etc)
So two characters can have the same number of bad match-ups but still be ranked differently. Personally I dont see the point. It must be a tournament thing or something.
Some numbers for Ryu whiff punish combos.
Neutral jump Hp into Ultra 398
Neutral jump Hp, cr.Hp, Hp DP, fadc into Ultra 497
Neutral jump Hp, Cr.HP into ex hurricane kick 318
Neutral jump Hp, st.HP into ex hurricane kick 328
Neutral jump Hp, Cr.HP into HP DP 310
Neutral jump Hp, st.HP into Hp DP 320
Crouching Mp, crouching Fierce into LK hurricane kick 230/ Hk hurricane kick 246/ ex hurricane 254
crouching Mp, crouching Fierce in Hp DP 270
SPS, cr.Hp, HP DP, fadc into Ultra 517 (Abel step kick, st Hp, FP CoD, fadc into Ultra 520)
cr.Mp, cr.Mk into Ex fireball, fadc into ultra 401 (Abel cr.MP into Cod, fadc into cr.Hp to Ultra 490)
Who knew lol
If the match-up is based on damage output then it looks even to me. It even seems like Ryu hits harder despite the fact Abel has slightly more vitality…
I see it especially even since Ryu gets the same pressure off scoring a knockdown that Able gets off a step kick.
Also I tried the os sweep with Abel, for some reason I was under the impression it didnt work. Probably because most Abels wont attack right away and instead delay a little bit because of the fear of DP. But it does work.
Ryu does not do more damage than Abel in any sense of the word.
Abel’s nj.hp, cr.hp, U1 does 598 damage, compared to Ryu’s nj.hp, U1.
nj.fp, c.fp xx falling sky, likewise, does 338 damage while building a full meter.
Abel simply does more damage than Ryu, even without using meter (comparing nj.hp, s.hp xx ex Tatsu to nj.hp, c.fp xx FS here).
Ryu has tools. He has versatility. Abel sticks his leg up and hopes he wins a 50/50. But, I dare say I’d rather have Abel’s BNB FADC U1 than SPS. I like having a poke that is dash-cancelable without meter and doesn’t take seventeen frames to start up. SPS and f+mk are two completely different moves for completely different purposes.
Ok please tell me how you are landing neutral jump HP, cr.Hp into Ultra on Ryu in a match. Im talking about match situations not training room situations. If you want to cite training room combos why dont you just start with super into ultra or something. Cmon now.
Abel doing more damage than Ryu without using meter is not what I found. Tell me what combo you are doing that is doing more damage please dont say anything starting with a neutral jump whatever.
My whole point of bringing up Sps and compare it to a step kick was because of the claim that a step kick “puts everything in Abel’s favor” It does not anymore than a sps would “put everything in Ryu’s favor” or a tick would put everything in ones favor.
Ryu isn’t a bad character at all. Abel just does more damage and builds meter faster (cr.hp, FS is a full bar; f+mk, s.hp xx fierce CoD is a full bar, TT is half a bar). Ryu has more tools. As an Abel player, f+mk is a 50/50 on both ends. Sometimes you lose the 50/50 every time when you’re playing Abel. Ryu, on the other hand, is very, very solid. He doesn’t need to get 2 or 3 good mix-ups to win. He can just stay solid and win.
if you want to say that options available after step kick are even fine - even though i disagree here because ryu cannot throw out any normals and abel can, it still doesnt matter when talking advantage…
so for this example, after step kick ryu and abel are 50/50.
unfortunately you have only listed ryu’s punish if abel goes for TT after step kick. at this point, i think you have proven for all abel players that this is his worst option. this option is worse than all the others because the only thing it beats is throw and block.
if all of abels guesses have better damage meaning larger payouts - that is, if you go top down of most common and best punish for available option - abel get a much better payout - say, 25% better.
then this is the same as flipping a coin where ryu gets heads and abel gets tails. the only difference is ryu gets payed .75:1 for heads and abel gets 1:1 for tails. even though they win the same amount of times (50/50), abel gets a much bigger payout at the end of the day - and ryu will go broke much faster, aka die. this is why i say he has a huge advantage after step kick. for the same reason that the casino has an advantage when you bet on black or red at the roulette table.