Yeah Do you know why? Did you read all the posts?
Of the combos you listed that “even without using meter does more damage” here is the damage:
222
280
200
300
346
256
270
Here is Ryu no meter
jp. Fierce, st. fierce into FB 248
jp. Fierce, st. fierce into Hurricane kick 296
jp. Fierce, cr.Mp,cr.MK into FB 250
jp. Fierce, cr.MP,cr.MP, Hp Dp 313
plus whatever I listed before. all of these are on Par w/ whatever Abel dishes out. Thats including your jump in HP combos that you are not even likely to land. So no Abel doesnt do more damage without even having to use meter.
The highest realistic one you posted was this one:
f+mk, s.fp xx fierce CoD FADC c.fp, ultra - 545 damage
Which uses meter and your not gauranteed to land because of a possible crouching Ryu
Ryu’s comparable one that uses meter does 517
Sps cr.Hp, HP DP fadc into Ultra
which I think I listed before.
I dont think anyone is saying Ryu is a bad character I certainly am not. Im I think its an even match-up but if its not I dont think damage would be the reason. But hey it very well could be. You think the match-up is in Abel’s favor? Either way it doesnt really matter we all have our opinions but If it is a bad match up I would at least like to know why.
tango, not really sure what you are getting at? you are just giving multiple options for punishing the exact same thing - a missed TT. just give the best one.
then put down all of ryu’s other options and punishes to abels moves after a blocked step kick. i think you are going to find that all the other options can lead to a shitload more damage for abel, with maybe 120 max for ryu.
again, why does abel always want to do TT after blocked step kick? seems like he has a ton of other better options.
what happens to ryu if he jumps and abel does standing HP after step kick?
saying that ryu damage output is the same as abel, and listing the damage outputs to multiple combos that punish the exact same thing is really silly.
you are probably the only person i seen write that ryu does just as much damage as abel per punish. one of the best things about abel is that he does so much dmg when he gets in.
what did you think this matchup was in vanilla? did you think it was in ryu favor 6-4? if you think it was even, and obviously ryu got serious damage and moveset nerfs, why wouldnt abel have the edge now?
I dont know that TT is his “worst option” Its his best option to beat block and throw. Its his “worst option” to beat jump and DP and dash. So If Ryu gets a damage increase the match becomes even? Its not like we are talking about trades where 75% damage is better than 50% damage. We are talking about will I take damage or will I give it.
Anyways like I said its all just opinions.
well, i guess you just chose not to read any of the other stuff :(.
anyways, you have only given punish to one option: whiffed TT. if you dont want to look at the other options that’s cool. you ask why i think step is advantage for abel and not even. i tried to answer…
you state the ryu does the same amount of damage for punishes as abel, but you just listed a bunch of combos for the exact same punish.
Well I am now since dustlooper said Abel does more damgage listed his combos that had nothing to do with our discussion. The ones I listed before are the ones you are likely to see
Ryu’s other option is to block or tech just as you would any attack. The TT is the one he has to change that.
.
Because he thinks you will stay blocking… because you think he will strike…
He gets hit. Now answer what happens if he stays blocking low. AHA!
That is only to illustrate that the damage is equal both from Abel and Ryu. I mean a successful TT does 200 damage max. A successfully defended TT attempt will cost you just as much or more. Just pay attention to the list I wrote in response to you. Those are the combos you will see in a match. The other ones I listed was in respone to the claim that Able does more damage w/out meter.
I probably am. Let me finish your sentence to make it more accurrate
"one of the best things about abel is that he does so much dmg when he gets in. and guesses right
Like I said before I thought it was even in SF4 and Ryu got nerfed while Abel did not. So I can see how it can turn into a bad match-up. Since neither fighters health was nerfed nor their damage was buffed then it has to be something else IMO. Maybe its the fact that Ryu cant super with a fireball out thus giving Abel a free pass to focus thru from close range. Thus making fireballs less effective and why I think they either need to give it back or buff his fireball. I guess as a result he will take more damage than before but not because of unequal damage.
And its not like good Abels still wouldnt find their way in so Ryu still got put in the same situation he gets in now. Its not like Ryu starts Round 1 with super stocked so how much did that impact? Its the same fight as before in my eyes.
i think you are getting way to theoretical here. you still arent listing damage output for ryu when he guess right about abels other moves.
go play a good abel player and tell him that you will let him get step kick off for free. then play the guessing game. i think after about 3 games, you will see how great abel is when he gets that step kick off.
of course, this is only discussing why step kick is so good. if you dont see step kick as an advantageous move in the matchup, i would like to know what approach you are using as abel. if step kick isnt good, than what does abel do to ever get an advantage?
Its obvious Abel is at an advantage after a Step Kick. Abel is a mix up character so Ryu job is to prevent close contact, unless Ryu
is the one holding frame advantage. Look at Daigo spaming c.mp vs Justing wong in EVo 2009, he sure dosent want to get Step
kick.
Nah lol Its just taking forever to respond as Im F’ing around in the training room while Im writing the message
Anyways it seems Abel gets more the most damage @ 365 doing his BnB into falling sky
(except ultra) which requires to meters
Ryu does not captilize as much with two meters unless its into an ultra. He tops out around 270 w/ or w/out meter(and no ultra) But this has always been the case even in sf4. I think the difference is made up in low forward into FB’s. Three of those equal to 360
Which part is theoretical? The damage output when Ryu guess right is zero just as it is when Abel blocks a safe jump. What are you getting at?
Telling someone that they will get free step kicks to somehow prove that a 50/50 nsituation is advantageous THAT would be silly. What would it prove other than sometime you guess right and sometimes you guess wrong. The step kick is nothing more than pressure.
I never said step kick wasnt good. I said it doesnt put Abel in any advantage. My guess on how Abel gets an advantage is from a knockdown. From there he can make you guess which side to defend or if you should go for a risky reversal. He tries to get that knockdown from the pressure of the step kick. And he is taking a risk trying to do it. Just as Ryu has to take a risk trying to avoid it or punish him for trying.
Let me ask you this Whats the difference between a blocked step kick and a blocked jab? Do they both put you “in a huge advantageous” position?
i dont get what you are trying to say. step kick is not the same as abel blocking a safe jump…
you say that step kick does not put abel at an advantage. i think it does. i would say most players would say it does, which is why they do more than just try to block, they try to keep it from happening completely.
this whole thread is getting majorly sidetracked about step kick. if you dont think step kick is to abel’s advantage, then i guess in your mind ryu has a big advantage in this match…
i personally think step kick setups are what make abel good, and define his fight style.
go try what i wrote about with step kick. it wont just prove that you sometimes guess wrong and sometimes right, it will prove that abel will have a big advantage. if you dont believe me, go try it. then it wont be theoretical.
as to your jab question, it depends on who has the jab. if you gave zangief ryu’s jab, i would think gief players would be pretty happy about that.
EDIT:
i’m not trying to start an argument or anything like that. maybe you could just post your counters for step kick other than neutral jump - like if you are backdashing what are you doing after to get damage. i really do think dmg output is skewed towards abel.
Okay I’ll ask again.
What are you trying to get at by asking what is Ryu’s damage output for options other than TT?
What part of what I said is theoretical? What is the difference between a blocked step kick from Abel and a blocked crouching jab from Abel?
Ryus damage output for correctly aswering options other than TT is the same damage output that Ryu gets when Abel correctly answers a safe jump. So again I ask, what are you getting at?
and since this one didnt get answered either: What happens when Abel goes for a standing fierce after a step kick and Ryu decides to stay blocking low? And why does that happen?
Step kick is nothing more than a long range tick set up.
Here is Abel’s goal in the match: Get in. Otherwise he’s useless… step kick and Rolls allow him to het in, with rolls being more unsafe. But getting in isnt the reward. Guessing right after getting in is his reward. A knockdown.
Ryu’s goal in the match is to punish Abel for trying to get in. Unless you play perfect Abel will eventually get in. Of course otherwise he’s useless.
Here is where we differ
I say: Abel’s in, so what? He still has to do something that he can be punished for. If he is punished, Ryu will deal as much damage as he would have taken. Abel now has to guess just like Ryu has to guess. There is no advantage.
you say:He’s in. If I guess wrong I will take more damage than I would be able to give(which isnt true) I am now disadvantaged because I have to guess.
As far as telling someone they get free step kicks, how about you try this. Pick Ryu and tell an Abel to let you get free tic set-ups ,jab into whatever on him and let him guess how to respond. What would be the difference between you doing this and me doing step kick set-ups with Abel?
And also please state What would it prove?
Please answer the bolded
edit: The only question that matters is this: What advantage does Abel have after a blocked step kick?
State the advantage
but I would still like the answers to the other questions as well.
every single bold faced question has already been answered in the posts before or is common sense. seems like you’re just trolling.
as for all your questions, if someone answers and you dont like it, you just dont recognize it. you originally stated that you didnt believe abel bnbs take off 1/4 life and wanted to know what combos these were so you can try them in training mode. then after i give a few combos, you state you never look at damage output. lol, i guess you didnt like the answer :).
when you list combos they are all for the same thing - whiffed TT and you list things like this
“Neutral jump Hp, Cr.HP into ex hurricane kick 318
Neutral jump Hp, st.HP into ex hurricane kick 328
Neutral jump Hp, Cr.HP into HP DP 310
Neutral jump Hp, st.HP into Hp DP 320”
so you are interchanging cr.HP with st.HP. would you call that trolling or what? what exactly is the point of listing both? i guess you want to make it look like ryu has a lot more damaging options or something :).
you use st.LK in your block strings to give you an advantage.?.? but against any character with a 3 frame startup move, you are frame trapping yourself… obviously, from your standpoint, something like +1 on block is a complete waste - as you said earlier +1/-1 doesnt matter. you need +4 etc…
you originally didnt think OS for backdash worked. when you test it and find out it’s very good, you dont even acknowledge that this sucks for ryu and it’s another option that abel takes away. guess you dont want ryu to have his moves limited.
your only damage option listed was for a neutral jump where abel whiffs TT - you then proceed to list like 10 combos for the same thing. when i ask for other punishes you respond by asking me the same question. that works :).
you state that ryu deals as much damage as abel from inside, but dont give anything to prove it other than whiffed TT. even though you were given combo damage output that shows the opposite - i guess you dont look at that so you can just say that it’s even.
as i have said already, i think the reason abel is better in this matchup is damage output. since you dont look at damage output, i guess this is a pointless statement.
i could be totally wrong and this could be heavily in ryu’s favor; but from what you have stated i’m not getting that. i’m sure there are lots of players that have problems with good abel players, and would love some tips on how to change this around.
the problem i am having with this entire thing is that you can do this with every single match up in the game. if you want a matchup to be even, in theory you can make it that way.
ryu has a DP and a fireball. in theory he should never lose. just DP all the opponents pokes and throw fireballs at the perfect time…
using your logic i’m sure we can show that hakan vs abel is even or in hakans favor =).
WTF are you even talking about? Trolling? In what F’n way am i trolling? And no You never answered the bolded questions, if you had I wouldnt had asked again for your answers to them. All you did was instead of answering them you ask a question. And you still havent.
I asked what combos take a quarter of life of a blocked stepped kick and you come with cr.HP into falling sky. Ok it takes 270.
Guess what beats crouching fierce? Block0
Guess what beats block TT 200
Guess what beats TT neutral jump Guess how much dammage Ryu will get from that neutral jump 310
So how does Abel get more damage again?
The reason I listed those combos w/ st/cr.Hp is because those are Ryu’s most damaging combos of a whiffed TT. Maybe if you put a little thought into why sometimes you would not go for the stHp version even though its does more damage you will see why I listed it that way… You know instead of coming to the conclusion that “Im trying to make it seem like Ryu has a whole bunch of options”
You keep asking for Ryu’s damage output for Abel’s other options. Block has no damage output, tech has no damage output, so… figure it out.
I use st.LK in my block strings because it doesnt put me at a disadvantage even tho it leaves me @ -1. I never said it gives me an advantage. Thats you once again putting words into my mouth like the claim that i said “I dont care about damage output”
I stated that Ryu does as much damage for guessing right that Abel does for guessing right of a blocked step kick. Which he does. Show me other wise.
Ok so?? Whats your point. I found out the os does work. Whats your point? There is an answer for os sweep just like there is for TT and whatever else. It sucks for Ryu because straight dashing gets beat by os? This makes Ryu unique how?
as i have said already, i think the reason abel is better in this matchup is damage output. since you dont look at damage output, i guess this is a pointless statement
and there you go again. Its clear that you are not even paying attention. Evidence of me “looking at damage ouput” is all in this thread.
i could be totally wrong and this could be heavily in ryu’s favor; but from what you have stated i’m not getting that. i’m sure there are lots of players that have problems with good abel players, and would love some tips on how to change this around.
As could I.
So answer these questions and that will be the end. There wont be no point in continueing to arque.
You say step kick puts Abel at an advantage. What is that advantage? What is the difference between a blocked step and a blocked jab from Abel? and What have I said that is theory?
Lets see if you answer them this time. If not well I got nothing else to say on the matter. Well except that the trolls are always the 1st ones to say “stop trolling”
You contradict yourself over and over again. I guess it’s easy to troll when you choose both sides.
With just the 2 options you stated abel is already at advantage. Abel has even more options, some of which are listed in posts 172, and 174. The reason for not putting an exhaustive list is because it should be pretty obvious that abel is better off than ryu when he is up close with frame advantage.
You’re missing the boat. You listed a bunch more than this, i just didnt post them. The reason it’s a complete waste is because you are just listing punish combos for the exact same situation. Just list one combo and be done with it. Maybe move that to the combo thread? you can give a list of 10 different comboes for each move.
I am not sure if english is your first language or not. But in english speaking countries, when someone says they don’t pay attention to something, it means they dont care about it. For instance, if you say you care about a painting, but you’ve never looked at it, i dont think too many people will take your critique too seriously. I’m pretty sure it works like this all over the modern world though.
In english speaking countries, we call this a contradiction. How can you care about something and not pay attention to it? It doesn’t make sense, but i’m sure you can find some silly loop hole.
Hopefully i cleared that up.
If you look at the minus sign before the 1, it means frame Disadavantage. Again, this is another example of a contradiction. When you use a move that puts you at minus frames, you are at a disadvantage.
Lets take a look at how you are using this:
Well, this is not a good block string. If you want to post a link to the Fuudo video, please do. I didnt know he was playing on XBL and there were videos of his input presses - how else would you know he was plinking there.
Here’s why this sucks, after your st.LK pause cr.LP (that is the move that will come out with that plink), if the opposing ryu presses any button, gets a free counterhit combo. So this is just a DP bait and a pretty bad one at that because, cr.MP does the same thing with frame advantage and allows you to coninue attacking. You are essentially frametrapping yourself. The st.LK puts you at disadvantage.
This concept works not just for ryu but all the characters. If you dont see how -1 frames hurt you, then you are at a disadvantage vs anyone who knows how to take advantage or it.
Let’s see: It puts him right next to you. If he guesses right he does a lot more damage than ryu does (please stop with the what about neutral jump against TT crap, for the sake here just say he doesnt do it, ever). If he guesses right he also knocks you down and has some of the best mix ups in the game. His damage output is ridiculous when looking at risk reward.
Frame advantage. But since you don’t see the difference between + and - frames, i am sure there is no difference in your eyes.
IMO, everything. Your s.LK setup, your logic on risk vs reward of guessing with abel, and of course the fact you cannot find a single weakness that ryu might have vs abel.
There’s more to the game than frame advantage and damage. Command throws are scary because they make defense more difficult. Against many characters, you could reasonably hold down-back and block, carefully attempting techs (or not and let the occasional throw get you), and wait for a chance to reset the situation. This strategy is less effective against characters with relatively quick command grabs. It doesn’t even much matter that the grab itself might only do a little more damage than a throw or that it’s punishable on jump or backdash. It’s an extra option that puts the match-up however much in that character’s favor.
Other aspects of the match-up might still make the quick command grabbing characters suck, of course. But I don’t see that in abel. He’s a pretty good character with some scary tools overall.
Also, c.lp plinked with c.lk probably does nothing but possibly delay a c.lk by one frame.
Fuudo using cl.lk at the end of a block string probably has little to do with frame advantage. It can be useful if you are playing a ryu mirror match and do an mp dp after the normal when expecting a reversal dp from them. The -1 will make your invincibility run out later without you having to try and time it perfectly. When playing against other characters, this can also give them more time to throw out something stupid while keeping you safe (assuming you have meter to FADC of course.) This is one instance where a negative frame advantage can be better.
It can also be useful just to delay when you release them from block stun while at the same time looking like you’re standing. (Which could make it look like you were gonna throw, or whatever other mind game usage.)
The differences between a blocked step-kick and a blocked jab from abel include:
You can hit-confirm without multiple jabs and the implied damage scaling, unless I’m missing something.
The step-kick allows you to move towards your opponent from a distance.
Jabs can be chained and allow for the potential to play around with the exact moment that you release the opponent from blockstun.
Crouch jab leaves opponent at +3 on block for possible frame traps.
You’re really reaching. Contradiction? The only reason i only mentioned block and tech was because that is Abel’s safest option vs Abels other options. You want damage output? Do a damn DP. There is your damage output. Of course I already knew your retort woulkd be “but it so risky”. And even if Ryu didnt have a DP I guess Ryu having to block = disadvantage in your world. To bad there aint a one size fits all answer that Ryu can do to get damage on whatever Abel tries to do like you see to be looking for.
Its more like your missing the boat. If I should have listed only one combo well just pay attention to only one combo. I listed them as I was testing them in training mode. You act as if listing all those combos has any significance to the discussion. Like coming to the conclusion that “Im trying to make it seem like Ryu has a whole bunch of options”
Its like your trying to win “hahaha you are so pathetic, your just trying to make Ryu look good” and " hahaha you were wrong about os" Cmon now. You can save all those childish tactics for someone else anyone w/ a brain would recognize that your just reaching to try to make some point. A useless one.
Like I said your really reaching. How convenient for you to quote what you did and stop right there. In english speaking countries, and all others as well, this is called taking things out of context. Hmmn I wonder why? Let me guess another useless point and false. Its not your fault. I should have known based on your past posts which display your cognitive ineptitude that you would some how equate “Not knowing the numbers” to “not caring about the damage output” Too bad for you its trait not desired in any language speaking country, let alone in a discussion. In english speaking countries, we call this a contradiction. How can you care about something and not pay attention to it? It doesn’t make sense, but i’m sure you can find some silly loop hole.
I would explain again, but you wouldnt understand. Either that or you would just cut off the explanation where you see fit. I hope I cleared that up. What advantage does step kick give Abel
lol
theory
learn to read
Somehow the fact that I dont know how to begin to list Ryu’s weakness has now become theory…ok.
You wont have to. Dont waste your time. I wont.
Everything else Im gonna say will be the last thing will say. This is not for you this is for anyone else who is following the discussion and actually has the mental capability to understand.
Being at -1 does not put you at a disadvantage. It does not because the opponent does not have anything that will hit you in one frame. I never said it was a good block string. Since the LK puts you at -1, that means you will have to delay less to your next attack to try and bait a DP. So if your character has a move that puts you at -2 that would be best In baiting a DP. You would only have to delay 2 frames after that move. You dont use this all the time. You use this when you think they will DP.
Just like you dont use a TT everytime. You use it when you think the will stay pat and block. Just like you use a frame trap when you think they will crouch tech from a tic. Its all the same. Only difference is you cant tech a TT. But if you use that to say thats what makes Abel a bad matchup then Abel is a bad match up for everyone. Which he’s not.
The cr.LP into st.LK was in fact a Ryu mirror match. It was Daigo vs Fuudo. What I think Fuudo was doing is pressing fwd +LK+HP. He was os’ing a SPS in case of a dash. The plinked LP/LK is nothing more than insurance in case they didnt DP and instead answer w/ a throw. I dont know if Fuudo did that thats what I do after a slight delay for a DP bait.
My point in comparing a blocked step kick and a tic jab is that they both give you slight frame advantage to follow up after the blockstun has finished. They can both fall victim the same things because that frame advantage wears off before your follow up. A blocked step kick does not “put everything in your favor” any more than a blocked jab.
If it did put everything in your favor, Does a Ryu jab +3 put you at more advantage than a step kick +1. Of course not.
Does Abel have better options after a tick than Ryu does after a tic. Yes but Ryu has an aswer for every single one. Thus its a guessing game. Its either will I get the damage or will I give it. If you guess wrong well you are the one who is going to take.
If its a bad match up for Ryu it would be because Abel cant be zoned out easily. Just as Dhalsim’s match up would change if he couldnt zone out Ryu like he does.Just like Dhalsim has a bad match-up w/ Abel. If Abel has landed a step kick blocked or not, it was because your zoning failed. The zoning failed before he landed the step kick not after. Now did it fail because of your play or did it fail because of Ryu’s tools arent enough to keep him out? In other words was there nothing you could have done or did you mess up.
It wouldnt be because of a non existant unequal damage output ability or some percieved advantage from a +1.