Rose requests v2013

[Genistar]

I swear something is up with the cr.mp. its like half of us think something changed while the other half didn’t. Anyways… Im going to update the first post the the past changes and then add our changes. That way you all can look at everything.

Anyways before we buff her could we give her back her st.mk? It wasn’t broken in super. It not even a buff its just restoring something she lost. Its annoying but it doesn’t lead to combos.
Far.st.Hp- Reduce start up frames by 2 and move and enlarge the hitbox downward.

Other than that is it possible for us to give rose some sort of new combo without breaking her character type?

[Tabby_Cat]

Fei is good because c.jab (3 frame) goes into rekka (safe) and corner carries on hit, leading to… ambigious safe mixup. I think it’s the j.mp? That chop? Crazy good. I wouldn’t call it vortex, true, but it’s the same low risk high reward forced mixup bull that the top characters have.

Yes a lot characters have that and they still aren’t top 5. Rufus’s dive kick / Ryu’s cl.HK / etc. Yes it is good but it’s not the j.mp that makes Fei long good. By this definition Rose having the ability to have U2 twice in a match and be able to do her mixups that leads to 400+ damage should make her have almost the same results as Fei no ?

Adon might be top because of his j.hk ambigious crossup pressure and throw? It’s certainly not his neutral game getting him there. Again, easy safe mixup.

Again, no. These kind of characters dont revolve around that to win compare to Cammy, Seth, Akuma.

I’m just going to argue the principle here - of all the top tiers, or even non-mid tier, are any of them non-mixup characters? The point being, unless Rose is ridiculously buffed, Rose is not getting there based on the archetype.

To get Rose there, you’re talking Vanilla Sagat - good neutral game, no excellent mixups but if he hits you, you’re dead. So we don’t need to make 10 reads, we need to make 1 good read. Is that where we really want Rose? Or we turn j.mk into Adon j.hk, but then we turn Rose into mixup queen - not the best for character and playstyle diversity, IMO.

I never said I wanted Rose top tier. But she definitely can get better and she doesn’t need to be vanilla sagat. She doesn’t need to have that sudden burst of damage or impossible to footsie her. her j.MK is almost as ambiguous as it can get, specially with the addition of j.HP and j.LK. I still don’t see where in the propositions of getting Rose buffed you got that idea.

As I said, that’s what it would take to make Rose top tier, or competitve. We have to make too many reads, based on us being zoners. That’s just how it is.

Increasing the damage on her BnBs may make it so that we need 8 reads instead of 10, but that doesn’t really change much on the top end (if you want to make Rose actually competitive). I think that’s neither here nor there, and would certainly be much less of a buff than a guaranteed reversal, which opens up options that Rose never had before.

explain more. Because you talking about increasing her damage and compare it to reversals and that it makes her have more options. I’m a bit confused.

Lots of people have proposed that in this thread. I’m disagreeing with all of them. Scroll up.

On c.mp nerf - see [this thread](I’m confused about AE Rose’s new Hitbox Has it been so long ago? Man. There’s like pictures of the hitboxes and links to the Capcom blog and all that. They did nerf the boxes, like they nerfed the boxes on all c.mps. They should give Rose her c.mp back - that’s a real buff to her neutral game, like how she should be.

I’ve seen Rose hitboxes. I thought it got nerfed in AE too. But I have Rose’s data from PC and judging from that: No it was changed at all.
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh217/CerberusFx/hurtbox_zpse9e8a315.jpg

I’ll take your word for it, but c.mp is nowhere near alpha levels. Nobody talks about c.mp. Sagat has better normals at that range. People /should/ talk about it.

On the ex.spiral, doesn’t it have 13 frames of invincibility now, first hit frame on frame 14? I remember there’s a 1 frame or 2 frame gap between the invincibility running out and the hitting frames beginning. Hell. I’ll wiki it. Ok, it’s 1-11f invincible, 13 frame startup, so 2 vulnerable frames between invincibility running out and the hitting frames starting. That’s 2 frames more than ex. headbutt.

Ex.headbutt is startup 8f, and is invincible until the 8th frame, so you never can stuff it completely, unlike ex.spiral. That’s the difference. It’s actually -8 on block, but not much can reach Honda on block, so call it safe (I think Ibuki U2 does? Maybe Chun Super? For all intents and purposes, safe). On the other hand, Honda can’t set anything up after ex.headbutt on hit, unlike ex.spiral. Rose can set up crossup, meaties, safe slide, U2, anything. Honda gets to build meter.

Setting up things should give you more results at the end of the day and the most effective one is U2. There are no meaties or safe slides after ex spiral. Honda’s headbutt on the other hand makes you fly to the other part of the screen and if it brings you closer to the corner then he has much more advantages. Again we are talking about a reversal situation and how punishable it is if blocked. So setups are still irrelevant in this context.

No meaties after ex.spiral? As in stand over them and press mk on wakeup? Seriously?

A buff is a buff overall, we need to consider all the ways that buffed move would improve her game.

Compared with ex.pinwheel, Juri is -14 on block, startup of 7 frames and 6f invincibility, so a 1 frame gap, but is throw invincible during that gap (and is airborne after). I think that’s comparable with what we have.

In some way yes. But the 7F startups makes it more mashable than Rose’s Ex spiral, and indeed throw invincible so she doesn’t get stuffed by grabs when she wants to think above her opponent. Compare to Rose. So the only comparison I could do is that they both don’t have their whole startup covered by invincibility. Other than that, they have nothing in common.

So both have a bad horizontal moving reversal. How is that nothing in common? And how is a 7f reversal more or less mashable than a 13f reversal?

If you want to consider what capcom is willing to do, the best strategy is to look at what capcom has done. And they obviously don’t like non-charge perfect reversals.

ex.messiah is 11 frame startup, 16f invincibility, so he gets to blow through everything. If blocked you need to play a high/low guessing game (which is safe on block, either 0 or -1 depending on high or low (M or H), but both are interruptable) or risk getting your interrupting move blown up by the L followup (flip kick) which has 14 frames of invincibility. This is the best deal so far. If no followup, Rufus is -14.

You forgot to say that Rufus also has the ability to delay his follow ups, which is why he also has the ability to bypass shoryukens if timed right. He also has the ability to bypass fireballs from midscreen and FADC to ultra. Things that Rose doesn’t have.

I don’t dispute any of that. Ex.messiah is fantastic, nobody pushes buttons against Rufus even after blocked ex.messiah. Still, at the end, it’s a guess, and if you guess right Rufus eats damage. If Rufus doesn’t have meter to fadc or doesn’t have ultra, it doesn’t hurt to take that gamble now and again.

Anyway, I don’t mind ex.spiral being used to go through fireballs. I can’t think of any character who would get totally blown up by this (oni?), so that’s fine.

Shoryus actually are -17 on block at least. Most of it is airborne, though, and there’s no frame data on how long they’re vulnerable grounded, but I believe 4 frames is about right.

It’s more than that. But also FADCable and a lot of them are only -1 to -3 at worst after FADC.

And ex.spiral is what after fadc? Anyway this is a measure of how vulnerable you are if you guess wrong on a reversal. It seems like if you guess wrong, you should get punished for it unless you spend 2 bars (which is my point, it shouldn’t be -4 on block). Some characters don’t even get to fadc (boxer, Gen, Yun).

So you know what? I changed my mind, -4f on block ex.spiral is way out of line, and unreasonable. Currently, Rose is -6, and with 6 active frames, you can make it 0 with good spacing (irrelevant in a reversal situation). If ex.spiral was -4 on block, you could make it +2 with spacing. Honda and Rufus wish they could get +0 on a headbutt/messiah.

Why ? They don’t need to be 0 on headbutt or messiah. Their moves dont get interrupted by normals and throws. They are way less punishable then Rose’s ex spiral in a reversal situation, etc.

I would keep frame disadvantage on block as is, and push for 1-13f invincibility. If Capcom thinks she needs more disadvantage frames on the end of it to balance the move, so be it - L spiral is -8, make ex.spiral -8 as well - even if spaced well, you are at least at -2, which is still good against everything but SPD.

Well with the fact that EX spiral is 13F startup, so pretty much near what the human eye can react to (usually is 15F) and the fact that it flashes yellow, you can pretty much react to a Rose that tries to space a EX spiral (which would also be a dumb move to do)

I’m thinking of ex.rekka. Rose would get in for free against, say, dhalsim. Or Guile. If you want an invincible forward moving special, it should be unsafe.

You know, after all that, when it comes down to it, do you think ex.spiral should be -4 on block and fully invincible until hitting? I think that would be out of line. I know I would be a lot less hesitant to just throw it out during block strings if I could get away with it.

[Genistar]

[quote=“Tabby_Cat, post:162, topic:151917”]

Fei is good because c.jab (3 frame) goes into rekka (safe) and corner carries on hit, leading to… ambigious safe mixup. I think it’s the j.mp? That chop? Crazy good. I wouldn’t call it vortex, true, but it’s the same low risk high reward forced mixup bull that the top characters have.

On the ex.spiral, doesn’t it have 13 frames of invincibility now, first hit frame on frame 14? I remember there’s a 1 frame or 2 frame gap between the invincibility running out and the hitting frames beginning. Hell. I’ll wiki it. Ok, it’s 1-11f invincible, 13 frame startup, so 2 vulnerable frames between invincibility running out and the hitting frames starting. That’s 2 frames more than ex. headbutt.

Ex.headbutt is startup 8f, and is invincible until the 8th frame, so you never can stuff it completely, unlike ex.spiral. That’s the difference. It’s actually -8 on block, but not much can reach Honda on block, so call it safe (I think Ibuki U2 does? Maybe Chun Super? For all intents and purposes, safe). On the other hand, Honda can’t set anything up after ex.headbutt on hit, unlike ex.spiral. Rose can set up crossup, meaties, safe slide, U2, anything. Honda gets to build meter.

Setting up things should give you more results at the end of the day and the most effective one is U2. There are no meaties or safe slides after ex spiral. Honda’s headbutt on the other hand makes you fly to the other part of the screen and if it brings you closer to the corner then he has much more advantages. Again we are talking about a reversal situation and how punishable it is if blocked. So setups are still irrelevant in this context.

No meaties after ex.spiral? As in stand over them and press mk on wakeup? Seriously?

A buff is a buff overall, we need to consider all the ways that buffed move would improve her game.

Compared with ex.pinwheel, Juri is -14 on block, startup of 7 frames and 6f invincibility, so a 1 frame gap, but is throw invincible during that gap (and is airborne after). I think that’s comparable with what we have.

In some way yes. But the 7F startups makes it more mashable than Rose’s Ex spiral, and indeed throw invincible so she doesn’t get stuffed by grabs when she wants to think above her opponent. Compare to Rose. So the only comparison I could do is that they both don’t have their whole startup covered by invincibility. Other than that, they have nothing in common.

So both have a bad horizontal moving reversal. How is that nothing in common? And how is a 7f reversal more or less mashable than a 13f reversal?

If you want to consider what capcom is willing to do, the best strategy is to look at what capcom has done. And they obviously don’t like non-charge perfect reversals.

ex.messiah is 11 frame startup, 16f invincibility, so he gets to blow through everything. If blocked you need to play a high/low guessing game (which is safe on block, either 0 or -1 depending on high or low (M or H), but both are interruptable) or risk getting your interrupting move blown up by the L followup (flip kick) which has 14 frames of invincibility. This is the best deal so far. If no followup, Rufus is -14.

You forgot to say that Rufus also has the ability to delay his follow ups, which is why he also has the ability to bypass shoryukens if timed right. He also has the ability to bypass fireballs from midscreen and FADC to ultra. Things that Rose doesn’t have.

I don’t dispute any of that. Ex.messiah is fantastic, nobody pushes buttons against Rufus even after blocked ex.messiah. Still, at the end, it’s a guess, and if you guess right Rufus eats damage. If Rufus doesn’t have meter to fadc or doesn’t have ultra, it doesn’t hurt to take that gamble now and again.

Anyway, I don’t mind ex.spiral being used to go through fireballs. I can’t think of any character who would get totally blown up by this (oni?), so that’s fine.

Shoryus actually are -17 on block at least. Most of it is airborne, though, and there’s no frame data on how long they’re vulnerable grounded, but I believe 4 frames is about right.

It’s more than that. But also FADCable and a lot of them are only -1 to -3 at worst after FADC.

And ex.spiral is what after fadc? Anyway this is a measure of how vulnerable you are if you guess wrong on a reversal. It seems like if you guess wrong, you should get punished for it unless you spend 2 bars (which is my point, it shouldn’t be -4 on block). Some characters don’t even get to fadc (boxer, Gen, Yun).

So you know what? I changed my mind, -4f on block ex.spiral is way out of line, and unreasonable. Currently, Rose is -6, and with 6 active frames, you can make it 0 with good spacing (irrelevant in a reversal situation). If ex.spiral was -4 on block, you could make it +2 with spacing. Honda and Rufus wish they could get +0 on a headbutt/messiah.

Why ? They don’t need to be 0 on headbutt or messiah. Their moves dont get interrupted by normals and throws. They are way less punishable then Rose’s ex spiral in a reversal situation, etc.

I would keep frame disadvantage on block as is, and push for 1-13f invincibility. If Capcom thinks she needs more disadvantage frames on the end of it to balance the move, so be it - L spiral is -8, make ex.spiral -8 as well - even if spaced well, you are at least at -2, which is still good against everything but SPD.

Well with the fact that EX spiral is 13F startup, so pretty much near what the human eye can react to (usually is 15F) and the fact that it flashes yellow, you can pretty much react to a Rose that tries to space a EX spiral (which would also be a dumb move to do)

I’m thinking of ex.rekka. Rose would get in for free against, say, dhalsim. Or Guile. If you want an invincible forward moving special, it should be unsafe.

You know, after all that, when it comes down to it, do you think ex.spiral should be -4 on block and fully invincible until hitting? I think that would be out of line. I know I would be a lot less hesitant to just throw it out during block strings if I could get away with it.

If ex.spiral gets full invincibility how about we make it -9 on block. That way will still be hesitant to throw it out during block string when we don’t have 3 bars or meter. That could be the trade off for full inv.

[Genistar]

Idk if you can test some of these cerberus but can you test these 3 things?

Restore Far.st.mk to its super form
Enlarge st.far.hp hitbox downwards.

rose’s fireballs ( I saw what you put but i wanted to know how it would help if we reduced it by 1 more frame.)

Soul spark L: reduce recovery by 3 frames: 52>49
Soul spark M: Reduce recovery by 2 frames: 52>50
Soul spark H: Reduce Recovery by 1 frame : 52>51

[Tabby_Cat]

Wait, wasn’t the AE st.mk the good version +4 after hit?

[Genistar]

Wait, wasn’t the AE st.mk the good version +4 after hit?

I meant far st.mk my bad

[cerberusfx]

I’m just going to argue the principle here - of all the top tiers, or even non-mid tier, are any of them non-mixup characters? The point being, unless Rose is ridiculously buffed, Rose is not getting there based on the archetype.

since Rose (along with Chun) are solid mid tier characters (so around no.20-21) I will just name a few above them that aren’t mixup-characters
Fei / Adon / Honda / Makoto / Sakura / Ken / Balrog / Sagat…I could go on. And still the point isn’t to make Rose top tier. It is to make her moves stronger. You were talking about how cr.mp was nerfed from super. It’s still possible to make it the best poking move in the game and she will still be where she is if that’s the only thing she gets buffed. Or even lower if she ends up only getting this while other characters get buffed.

As I said, that’s what it would take to make Rose top tier, or competitve. We have to make too many reads, based on us being zoners. That’s just how it is.

Rose is competitive (Everyone is btw). The problem is that most top tier characters wins against her and they are the characters you will mostly see in tournaments.

Increasing the damage on her BnBs may make it so that we need 8 reads instead of 10, but that doesn’t really change much on the top end (if you want to make Rose actually competitive). I think that’s neither here nor there, and would certainly be much less of a buff than a guaranteed reversal, which opens up options that Rose never had before.

explain more. Because you talking about increasing her damage and compare it to reversals and that it makes her have more options. I’m a bit confused.

Lots of people have proposed that in this thread. I’m disagreeing with all of them. Scroll up.

• Increasing her bnb damage that revolves around 160 damage ? I don’t see the problem. You can disagree but unless you have a reason, you won’t be convincing anybody
• Guaranteed reversal that opens up options for Rose ? what does that mean ?

I’ll take your word for it, but c.mp is nowhere near alpha levels. Nobody talks about c.mp. Sagat has better normals at that range. People /should/ talk about it.

1st you base the cr.mp from a screenshot taken from SSF4, now you talk about Alpha levels. Decide what you want (Actually I have proposed a hurtbox reduction on it). And no Sagat doesn’t have better normals at mid range. Rose destroys Sagat at mid range. You are just pushing the wrong buttons

No meaties after ex.spiral? As in stand over them and press mk on wakeup? Seriously?

Exactly. That’s not a meaty attack. If it was, you would be able to connect cr.HP or even U2 right after it without the need of a counter hit. You are suppose to hit your opponent with the very last active frames for it to be considered a meaty attack.

A buff is a buff overall, we need to consider all the ways that buffed move would improve her game.

No a buff is not a buff overall. I could give +5 damage on all Rose’s normals and it wouldn’t be same as giving Sagat’s ability to cancel far st.lk back. The weight of a buff is very different from another.

So both have a bad horizontal moving reversal. How is that nothing in common? And how is a 7f reversal more or less mashable than a 13f reversal?

If you want to consider what capcom is willing to do, the best strategy is to look at what capcom has done. And they obviously don’t like non-charge perfect reversals.

• The horizontal range: how are they common ? because they move left to right ? the distance travelled between the 2 are much more different
• The size of the hitboxes
• The active frames
• The damage
• She gains 2 more invincibility frames (thus it covers her only “naked frame” + 1 active frame) during U1)
• You have better chances to stuff someone’s with a 7F move than with a 13F. Specially when they are going to meaties.

ex.messiah is 11 frame startup, 16f invincibility, so he gets to blow through everything. If blocked you need to play a high/low guessing game (which is safe on block, either 0 or -1 depending on high or low (M or H), but both are interruptable) or risk getting your interrupting move blown up by the L followup (flip kick) which has 14 frames of invincibility. This is the best deal so far. If no followup, Rufus is -14.

You forgot to say that Rufus also has the ability to delay his follow ups, which is why he also has the ability to bypass shoryukens if timed right. He also has the ability to bypass fireballs from midscreen and FADC to ultra. Things that Rose doesn’t have.

I don’t dispute any of that. Ex.messiah is fantastic, nobody pushes buttons against Rufus even after blocked ex.messiah. Still, at the end, it’s a guess, and if you guess right Rufus eats damage. If Rufus doesn’t have meter to fadc or doesn’t have ultra, it doesn’t hurt to take that gamble now and again.

So you are telling me that we bait Rufus’s reversal to come out, then we block it but then we have to guess which way to block AND we have to time our attack to counter hit ? AND if we dont time it well he can FADC ultra ? How does this sound fair to you ? Specially comparing to a move like Rose’s Spiral ?

Anyway, I don’t mind ex.spiral being used to go through fireballs. I can’t think of any character who would get totally blown up by this (oni?), so that’s fine.

Rose STARTS moving on her EX spiral beginning at frame 11. So no it’s no possible to just see a fireball coming and say “YOLO” and mash EX spiral through the fireball. Even Oni won’t be affected by that.

And ex.spiral is what after fadc? Anyway this is a measure of how vulnerable you are if you guess wrong on a reversal. It seems like if you guess wrong, you should get punished for it unless you spend 2 bars (which is my point, it shouldn’t be -4 on block). Some characters don’t even get to fadc (boxer, Gen, Yun).

She’s actually -9 after EX spiral FADC forward dash. She can be hit in between her move AND after.
Boxer can ultra after it and is cannot be hit in between his attack it’s 12F startup and has 15F of invincibility
Gen startup is completely invincibile
Yun gets some distance in which a lot of characters can’t even punish him after his EX DP. Also 4F startup and 5F invincible.
So yeah it balances out pretty well. Except for Rose. Also EX spiral is -6 on block.

I’m thinking of ex.rekka. Rose would get in for free against, say, dhalsim. Or Guile. If you want an invincible forward moving special, it should be unsafe.

Of course. That’s the point. I don’t see where you are going there:
There are 4 ways that have been proposed to improved EX spiral

• Bring the startup of EX spiral from 13F to 11F startup, which would match her 11F of invincibility and eliminate her 2 “naked frames”
• +2 invincibility frames on EX spiral which would match her startup and eliminate her 2 “naked frames”
• +3 invincibility frames which would make her 1st active frames also invincible
• Leave everything as it but make her not punishable on block (and leaves her at -2 at best)

You know, after all that, when it comes down to it, do you think ex.spiral should be -4 on block and fully invincible until hitting? I think that would be out of line. I know I would be a lot less hesitant to just throw it out during block strings if I could get away with it.

That’s why this thread is here for. To discuss balance changes for myself I think reducing the startup by 2F is best option. Yes it comes out faster but you have no excuse if the opponent manages to block it and at the same time the opponent has no excuse if he was pressing buttons at the wrong time. Right now the opponent has much more advantages at pressing buttons, pressuring Rose than to worry about getting a reversal that does a stupid 120 damage without no follows other than a techable knockdown right after that.

[Heavy_Mental]

So what are the changes we want for her?

[cerberusfx]

Idk if you can test some of these cerberus but can you test these 3 things?

Restore Far.st.mk to its super form
Enlarge st.far.hp hitbox downwards.

rose’s fireballs ( I saw what you put but i wanted to know how it would help if we reduced it by 1 more frame.)

Soul spark L: reduce recovery by 3 frames: 52>49
Soul spark M: Reduce recovery by 2 frames: 52>50
Soul spark H: Reduce Recovery by 1 frame : 52>51

• no differences from Super to AE to AE2012 on far st.mk

• far st.HP hitbox: results are the same. Not better or worse.

• Soul spark L: reduce recovery by 3 frames: 52>49 -> improves her zoning capabilities. I tested different jump-ins timings and when she was at 52F all the jump-ins would all hit her but with 49F I was able to block some of them (very thigh tho lol)

• Soul spark M: Reduce recovery by 2 frames: 52>50 -> no differences except that cl.HP xx MP Soul Spark is possible. I would actually prefer doing 1F less startup / 1F less recovery

• Soul spark H: Reduce Recovery by 1 frame : 52>51 -> able to link cl.HK and cl.MK. Stun output going up too fast >_> with FADC combos

[Tabby_Cat]

You know, after all that, when it comes down to it, do you think ex.spiral should be -4 on block and fully invincible until hitting? I think that would be out of line. I know I would be a lot less hesitant to just throw it out during block strings if I could get away with it.

That’s why this thread is here for. To discuss balance changes for myself I think reducing the startup by 2F is best option. Yes it comes out faster but you have no excuse if the opponent manages to block it and at the same time the opponent has no excuse if he was pressing buttons at the wrong time. Right now the opponent has much more advantages at pressing buttons, pressuring Rose than to worry about getting a reversal that does a stupid 120 damage without no follows other than a techable knockdown right after that.

I’ll cut to the chase and get behind that. We’re not in disagreement there. What do people think about if Capcom wants to reduce the range to give us this buff? Cr.lp cr.lp cr.lk cr.mp into ex.spiral may not combo from max range. Would you rather have that, or invincible reversal? I’d be fine with a range nerf if we get an invincible reversal. Also, ex.reflect should deal with meaty fireballs (as in, fbs that hit Rose on her first hittable frame. Not sure what your definition is). I thought that was the AE buff to ex.reflect, but I still get hit by those meaty fireballs. No sure what’s going on there…

I think most of the thread is agreed on cr.mp hurt box buffs (she should absolutely own this space) and lowering hitbox on cl.mk?

Her fb is ass, but I’m not sure that giving Rose a real midrange fb game is right…

[cerberusfx]

EDIT: well I’m going to give explanation of these moves so that people can understand the purpose of these changes a bit more.
Changes on the moves were done by using OnoEdit
Well I did 2 versions of her:

Version 1

• Cl.MK: move the hitbox downward so it can connect on all characters.
  Explanation: Juri/Guy/Gouken/Yun/Yang and some others can make the move whiff if they try to cr.tech and puts Rose at an disavantage. Cl.MK is supposed to beat any low attacks done on her.
  What I did: Extended height of hitbox from 0.15 to 0.21

• Cr. fierce larger horizontal hitbox. (encompasses the whole scarf)
  Explanation: The hitbox on cr.HP is usually misleading because of the animation. It also reinforces her ground pressure
  What I did: Increase the width hitbox from 0.25 to 0.35

• Focus Attack: increased range
  Explanation: A lof of focus attacks makes the character move back during the charge or makes them go forward when released. Rose practically doesn’t move during her focus attack and when released there’s practically no range on the hitbox. So I decided to increase the hitbox a little bit BEFORE the end of the scarf (http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh217/CerberusFx/Untitled-1_zpsd88388e4.gif)
  What I did: Increased the width of the hitbox from 0.4 to 0.5 (for all focus attacks)

• +3 frame advantage on blocked Level 1/2 FA into forward dash (-2/+4)
  Explanation: In addition of not having any movement on her focus attack, she’s -5 on block for a level 1 focus if she dashes forward, giving her no ability to apply pressure when needed. So I decided to give her 3 more frame advantage so that she could be unpunishable but STILL at disavantage on block
  What I did: Created a new cancel script: SAVING_FOCUS. In this she has a new script called DASH_FOCUS. Normal dash has his interrupt frame at 28 while DASH_FOCUS has his interrupt frames at 25 (+3). Interrupt frames means at which frame your character can cancel his/her animation with another move (such as blocking, doing another attack, etc)

• Soul Spark L: reduce recovery with 3 frames (49)
  Explanation: This makes her zoning better against some character
  What I did: Changed the interrupt frames from 52 to 49

• EX Soul Spiral: Startup invincible
  Explanation: Eliminate the 2 frames between the invincibility frames and active frames. Number of invincibility remains unchanged. EX spiral is suppose to be her reversal. Having 2 frames of nothing between invincible startup and active frames makes her get stuffed by throws and moves with long active frames. I made 3 versions of this. 1st version has invincibility to projectile for 11 frames + hit/throw invincibility for 13 frames (invincibility matches startup). 2nd version has projectile/hit/throw invincibility for 14 frames (1 active frame is invincibile). The last one has his startup decreased by 2 frames (startup matches invincibility)
  What I did:
  1st version: Added Hit/Throw invincibility in INVINC tab from 0 to 15
  2nd version Changed invincibility from 0 to13 in INVINC tab to 0 to 16
  3rd version Changed in SPEED tab the variation comes out on frame 6 instead of frame 3 (On frame 0, the animation plays 2x faster until it reaches frame 3, where the animation plays normally again. Making it change speed on frame 6 allows it to play 2x faster a little more) + Changed invincibility from 0 to13 in INVINC tab to 0 to 15 (since the animation is 2 frame faster, the invincibility is now 9 frames so I had to add 2 more frames of invincibility)

• Ultra 1: reduce the start up with 2 frames (10)
  Explanation: Reduce the startup for better reactions and better AA
  What I did: Changed speed value to these: http://prntscr.com/yuv8t

• Ultra 2:

• 2x qcb + 3x kick instead of 3x punch

• Add +3 block/hit stun

• Add +25 stun
  Explanation: Prevents EX reflect to be triggered. +3 block stun helps make sure not to get countered while doing mixups and allows for better reaction. It also helps her do more damaging combos (can now combo with cl.HK->cr.HP when U2 is hitting. +25 stun helps making people fear U2 more.
  What I did: Added 25 stun in the hitbox table, increased numbers in the ANIMTIME time (hit/block stun table) by 3. Changed buttons from 3xP to 3xK

---

Version 2

• Cr.MP: Slightly decrease hurtbox. +10 damage (60>70)
  Explanation: Wanted to give her a bit of Alpha 2 feel, back when she had the strongest normal in the game. So while it’s not the best normals in the game, I made it stronger. Also increased the damage by 10 to help bring up the damage on her bnb and combos
  What I did: Halved the hurtbox’s width during the whole animation (hurtbox’s width from frame 0->4 went from 0.2 to 0.1 and hurtbox width from frame 4->12 went from 0.4 to 0.2)

• Cl.MK: move the hitbox downward so it can connect on all characters.
  Explanation: Juri/Guy/Gouken/Yun/Yang and some others can make the move whiff if they try to cr.tech and puts Rose at an disavantage. Cl.MK is supposed to beat any low attacks done on her.
  What I did: Extended height of hitbox from 0.15 to 0.21

• Cl.HP: +2 active frames (2>4)
  Explanation: Allows better meaty attacks (meaty setup works the same way as the setup for meaty cr.lk) and also helps perform more successfully the trade OS U1
  What I did: extended active frames on “last hitbox” and in the HITBOX section by 2 (so now it appears from 7 to 11 instead of 7 to 9)

• Cr.HK:
  Explanation: Decreased startup by 1F (9F>8F): Allows for better punish and footsies. Specific combos on characters with big crouching hurtboxes are easier to do
  What I did: Changed in the SPEED section mutiplier from 1.3753 to 1.47

• Cr. fierce larger horizontal hitbox. (encompasses the whole scarf)
  Explanation: The hitbox on cr.HP is usually misleading because of the animation. It also reinforces her ground pressure
  What I did: Increase the width hitbox from 0.25 to 0.35

• Far St.MP: Active frame increased from 2F->3F. Startup at 5F
  Explanation: Allows better AA against dive kicks. Also helps setting up far st.MP xx EX Spiral while playing footsies (if done on counter hit or close enough then you can FADC U1)
  What I did: Added SPEED modifier to make it 2 frames faster

• Focus Attack:
  increase range.
  Explanation: A lof of focus attacks makes the character move back during the charge or makes them go forward when released. Rose practically doesn’t move during her focus attack and when released there’s practically no range on the hitbox. So I decided to increase the hitbox a little bit BEFORE the end of the scarf (http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh217/CerberusFx/Untitled-1_zpsd88388e4.gif)
  What I did: Increased the width of the hitbox from 0.4 to 0.5 (for all focus attacks)

+2 frame advantage on blocked Level 1/2 FA into forward dash (-3/+3)
Explanation: In addition of not having any movement on her focus attack, she’s -5 on block for level 1 focus if she dashes forward, giving her no ability to apply pressure when needed. So I decided to give her 2 more frame advantage so that she could be punishable by 3 frame moves but not as punishable as before

What I did: Created a new cancel script: SAVING_FOCUS. In this she has a new script called DASH_FOCUS. Normal dash has his interrupt frame at 28 while DASH_FOCUS has his interrupt frames at 26 (+2). Interrupt frames means at which frame your character can cancel his/her animation with another move (such as blocking, doing another attack, etc)

• Soul Spark
  L: reduce recovery with 3 frames (52>49)
  Explanation: This makes her zoning better against some character
  What I did: Changed the interrupt frames from 52 to 49
  M: reduce startup by 1F (22>21) and recovery by 1F (52>51)
  Explanation: Now can connect with Cl.HP under normal conditions, Easier to combo on counter hit
  What I did: Changed SPEED modifier from 0.61901 to 0.6316 (startup reduced by 1) and interrupt frames reduced by 1F
  H: reduce startup by 3F (29>26)
  Explanation: Allows for better frame traps, cr.HP can connect with it (counter hit only) (new combo in corner: cr.HP (counter hit) xx HP Spark, cr.HP xx [whatever]
  What I did: Changed SPEED modifier from 0.48149 to 0.54169 (startup reduced by 3)
  EX: +10 damage (30+70>40+70)
  Explanation: Bring up her damage output
  What I did: +10 damage in the hitbox tables

• Soul Spiral:
  Decrease startup by 2 on all regular versions (10F/13F/14F).
  Explanation: Comes out faster and cr.mp xx LP spiral is now a true blockstring, and MK depends on range
  What I did:
  EX: Frame advantage from -6F>-2F. Damage increased to 130 (120>130) EDIT: THINKING ABOUT REMOVING THIS.
  Explanation: Since she’s punishable before the move actually hits and the reversal is quite slow, I decided to not make her punishable on block but still at an disavantage.
  What I did: need to be redone

• Illusion Spark:
  Startup reduced by 2F (12>10).
  Reduce the time where the 2nd hitbox appears during the U1 animation
  Explanation: Reduce the startup for better reactions and better AA. Something not everyone knows is that the move actually has 2 hitboxes. The 1st 5 frames has the hitbox in front of her then the rest of the active frame appears. What would be better is if the hitbox could extended faster by 2-3 frames
  What I did: Changed speed value to these: http://prntscr.com/yuv8t + Reduced active frames of 1st hitbox from 123 to 128 by 3 (now active from 123 to 125). 2nd hitbox appears 3 frames earlier (from frame 125 to 137 instead of 128 to 137)

• Soul Satellite:
  2x qcb + 3x kick instead of 3x punch.
  Hitbox appears on the 1st activation frame
  **Explanation:**Prevents EX reflect to be triggered. Hitbox on 1st active frames makes her at the very best TRADE with the opponent who are trying to meaty her. everything else is unchanged.
  What I did: Changed buttons from 3xP to 3xK and made hitbox appear 2 frames earlier

---

Tested them and she turned out pretty good. Although one thing needs to be precised: her gameplay isn’t changed AT ALL. She doesn’t get facing combos or other ways of playing. The 1st version of Rose makes her be more solid overall. Need less re-adjustments when pressuring (cr.lp, cr.lk -> walk a bit -> cr.hp) and allows her to be a bit more offensive with the increase range on focus attack + better frame advantage after focus level 1/2. She also gets a better reversal and her U2 is now a bit scarier since she can extend her combos with new and more damaging normals and increase her stun damage output. I wanted to give a reason for an opponent to NOT try to poke Rose out of her U2. With more block/hit stun, Rose has enough time to react with a simple cr.mp xx spiral or even just a sweep to counter the opponent. So opponent has to think twice before doing anything.

The 2nd version makes her overall assets better and matches some stuff the current cast has. I’m not sure but I believe Rose is the only character that only has 2 normals that more than 3 active frames. It also doesn’t help her to setup meaty attacks. The increase active frames on Cl.HP and the increased range on Cr.HP allows her to setup better her meaties attacks. Also since she didn’t get any serious buff regarding her problem for reversal and getting pressured, her main tools for footsies got better: cr.MP got a hurtbox reduction and damage boost, her sweep is faster, her far st.MP is faster and 1 more active frame (which also helps her setup for a counter hit far st.MP xx EX Spark FADC U1), she also got her zoning slightly better. So now she’s more dependant on her main tools than her ultra or w/e

[cerberusfx]

You know, after all that, when it comes down to it, do you think ex.spiral should be -4 on block and fully invincible until hitting? I think that would be out of line. I know I would be a lot less hesitant to just throw it out during block strings if I could get away with it.

That’s why this thread is here for. To discuss balance changes for myself I think reducing the startup by 2F is best option. Yes it comes out faster but you have no excuse if the opponent manages to block it and at the same time the opponent has no excuse if he was pressing buttons at the wrong time. Right now the opponent has much more advantages at pressing buttons, pressuring Rose than to worry about getting a reversal that does a stupid 120 damage without no follows other than a techable knockdown right after that.

I’ll cut to the chase and get behind that. We’re not in disagreement there. What do people think about if Capcom wants to reduce the range to give us this buff? Cr.lp cr.lp cr.lk cr.mp into ex.spiral may not combo from max range. Would you rather have that, or invincible reversal? I’d be fine with a range nerf if we get an invincible reversal. Also, ex.reflect should deal with meaty fireballs (as in, fbs that hit Rose on her first hittable frame. Not sure what your definition is). I thought that was the AE buff to ex.reflect, but I still get hit by those meaty fireballs. No sure what’s going on there…

I think most of the thread is agreed on cr.mp hurt box buffs (she should absolutely own this space) and lowering hitbox on cl.mk?

Her fb is ass, but I’m not sure that giving Rose a real midrange fb game is right…

Well that’s why I didn’t pair a full EX spiral reversal with better zoning (except reduction by 3F on LP spark, which don’t change a difference at midrange). Instead of her having both, I put in one version with a good reversal and the other one with BETTER (not exceptionally but still manageable) zoning capabilities but her reversal is still mediocre (cannot be punished on block but she’s not at an advantage either)

I don’t know about Rose getting nerfs. There are really no reasons for her to get nerfed to be honest.

[Tabby_Cat]

Well I did 2 versions of her:
Version 1

• Cl.MK: move the hitbox downward so it can connect on all characters.
• Cr. fierce larger horizontal hitbox. (encompasses the whole scarf)
• Focus Attack: increased range
• +3 frame advantage on blocked Level 1/2 FA into forward dash (-2/+4)
• Soul Spark L: reduce recovery with 3 frames (49)
• EX Soul Spiral: Startup invincible
• Ultra 1: reduce the start up with 2 frames (10)
  explanation:
• Ultra 2:
• 2x qcb + 3x kick instead of 3x punch
• Add +3 block/hit stun
• Add +25 stun

I basically agree with this, except for fb buff and focus buff.

49 frames is dangerously close to a ken fireball (47f). I don’t think Rose should have a Ken fireball, especially lp fireball, which is the fastest to become active and the slowest (leading to kikoken type shenanigans), and should not be an option at mid range.

Focus should be defensive only, and it has plenty of range for that. I don’t want to see Rose using focus dash to get in rush down style.

[Tabby_Cat]

You know, after all that, when it comes down to it, do you think ex.spiral should be -4 on block and fully invincible until hitting? I think that would be out of line. I know I would be a lot less hesitant to just throw it out during block strings if I could get away with it.

That’s why this thread is here for. To discuss balance changes for myself I think reducing the startup by 2F is best option. Yes it comes out faster but you have no excuse if the opponent manages to block it and at the same time the opponent has no excuse if he was pressing buttons at the wrong time. Right now the opponent has much more advantages at pressing buttons, pressuring Rose than to worry about getting a reversal that does a stupid 120 damage without no follows other than a techable knockdown right after that.

I’ll cut to the chase and get behind that. We’re not in disagreement there. What do people think about if Capcom wants to reduce the range to give us this buff? Cr.lp cr.lp cr.lk cr.mp into ex.spiral may not combo from max range. Would you rather have that, or invincible reversal? I’d be fine with a range nerf if we get an invincible reversal. Also, ex.reflect should deal with meaty fireballs (as in, fbs that hit Rose on her first hittable frame. Not sure what your definition is). I thought that was the AE buff to ex.reflect, but I still get hit by those meaty fireballs. No sure what’s going on there…

I think most of the thread is agreed on cr.mp hurt box buffs (she should absolutely own this space) and lowering hitbox on cl.mk?

Her fb is ass, but I’m not sure that giving Rose a real midrange fb game is right…

Well that’s why I didn’t pair a full EX spiral reversal with better zoning (except reduction by 3F on LP spark, which don’t change a difference at midrange). Instead of her having both, I put in one version with a good reversal and the other one with BETTER (not exceptionally but still manageable) zoning capabilities but her reversal is still mediocre (cannot be punished on block but she’s not at an advantage either)

I don’t know about Rose getting nerfs. There are really no reasons for her to get nerfed to be honest.

Well, looking at all the non charge moves that travel horizontally more than a dp and have full invincibility (I.e. none except for ex.messiah), I’m seriously not hopeful for it without some accompanying nerf. I just think that we should go in with our eyes open.

[Genistar]

Idk if you can test some of these cerberus but can you test these 3 things?

Restore Far.st.mk to its super form
Enlarge st.far.hp hitbox downwards.

rose’s fireballs ( I saw what you put but i wanted to know how it would help if we reduced it by 1 more frame.)

Soul spark L: reduce recovery by 3 frames: 52>49
Soul spark M: Reduce recovery by 2 frames: 52>50
Soul spark H: Reduce Recovery by 1 frame : 52>51

• no differences from Super to AE to AE2012 on far st.mk

• far st.HP hitbox: results are the same. Not better or worse.

• Soul spark L: reduce recovery by 3 frames: 52>49 -> improves her zoning capabilities. I tested different jump-ins timings and when she was at 52F all the jump-ins would all hit her but with 49F I was able to block some of them (very thigh tho lol)

• Soul spark M: Reduce recovery by 2 frames: 52>50 -> no differences except that cl.HP xx MP Soul Spark is possible. I would actually prefer doing 1F less startup / 1F less recovery

• Soul spark H: Reduce Recovery by 1 frame : 52>51 -> able to link cl.HK and cl.MK. Stun output going up too fast >_> with FADC combos

I dont think the soul spark H change would do too much to her. Something even remotely new for her comboability would be nice.
One of the last things i was thinking was that what if you gave her st.hp a soft knock down property in which, she’d be able to set up frame traps with soul spark or to gain some space every now and then.

I took the list that you had and mixed it with version 2 rose and i changed the recovery of the fireballs to the ones i asked to be tested earlier.

• Cr.MP: Slightly decrease hurtbox. +10 damage (60>70)
• Cl.MK: move the hitbox downward so it can connect on all characters.
• Cl.HP: +2 active frames (2>4)
• Cr.HK: Decreased startup by 1F (9F>8F)
• Cr. fierce larger horizontal hitbox. (encompasses the whole scarf)
• Far St.MP: Active frame increased from 2F->3F. Startup at 5F
• Far. St.HP: Can cause a soft knockdown on hit
• Focus Attack:
  increase range.
  +3 frame advantage on blocked Level 1/2 FA into forward dash (-2/+4)
• Soul Spark
  L: reduce recovery with 3 frames (52>49)
  M: reduce startup by 1F (22>21) and recovery by 2F (52>50)
  H: reduce startup by 3F (29>26) and recovery by 1F (52>51)
  EX: +10 damage (30+70>40+70)
• Soul Spiral:
• EX Soul Spiral: Startup invincible
  Decrease startup by 2 on all regular versions (10F/13F/14F).
  EX: Recovery reduced by 5F, Frame advantage from -6F>-2F. Damage increased to 130 (120>130)
• Illusion Spark:
  Startup reduced by 2F (12>10).
  Reduce the time where the 2nd hitbox appears during the U1 animation
• Soul Satellite:
  2x qcb + 3x kick instead of 3x punch.
  Hitbox appears on the 1st activation frame
• Add +3 block/hit stun
  **- Add +25 stun

Edit yeah… i want to bold those parts… but can’t find the options

[cerberusfx]

Personnally, I don’t like the mix. I think she’s too well rounded this way

[KazDa973]

• Fix her Bnb’s i believe making Cr.mp +1 on hit could do this as well as making mk SSpiral 13~14F start up
  (if 14f combos then thats fine).
  _Cr.Mp +1 on hit
  _Also adjust her Cr.mk 5 frames start up +4 on hit.
  _Add range to Cr. lp (enough range so she can do cr.lp,cr.lk,cr.lpxxlp SSpiral)
  _Fr.Mp 5~6 frame start up and 3 active frames
  _Cl.Mk lowered hit box
  _Cr.Hp bigger horizontal hit box
  _Far.Hp bigger hit box(Stand 1 box away from ken in training room if it hits it perfect) and SF4 frame data -1 on block +3 on hit
  _Cr.Hk Old SF4 frames -3~4 on block
  _Cl.Hk Better hit box so it doesn’t whiff on Crouchers and 6 frames start up.
  _FA allow slight adavantage after dash canling or make the hit box bigger(http://shoryuken.com/wiki/images/b/b5/H.Reflect.jpg) and move it foward.

• SSpiral Damage increased across the board this will increases her overall damage with out over powering her poke game.
  _Lk.110 damage
  _mk.13~14 frames start up. 125 Damage
  _HK.135-140
  _ex.130 damage. frames 1~13 invincible with 14 being throw and projectile invincible or 9 frame start up with current invinciblity.

*SSparks Less recovery across the board 49 for lp and mp 50-51 for Hp.
_Lp.-8~10 on block -4~6 on hit.
_Mp.18~20 frames start up -2 on block +2 on hit
_Hp.22~24 frames start up and kepps current hit annd block data.
_Ex. 110 damage everything else the same.

*SThrow Bigger grab boxes .8~1.0 (with current hit boxes the increased grab range should balance out)

*Bring Ultra 1 to 9 frames of start up, with the current ivincibility or sub frames 10 and 11 as frames of fireball invincibility to end of the regual invincibility. So it would work 1~9 Invincible 10~11 Projectile Invincible .Possibly adjust the U1 hitbox so it wouldnt randomly lose to jumpins and other arieal moves at rose forehead during the start up.

Hey Cerburs, sorry if this sounds demanding i just wanted to make it short and to the point for the Capcom Forums but thank you if you do end up being able to test this for me.

[Genistar]

• Fix her Bnb’s i believe making Cr.mp +1 on hit could do this as well as making mk SSpiral 13~14F start up
  (if 14f combos then thats fine).
  _Cr.Mp +1 on hit
  _Also adjust her Cr.mk 5 frames start up +4 on hit.
  _Add range to Cr. lp (enough range so she can do cr.lp,cr.lk,cr.lpxxlp SSpiral) this is already possible but not worth it.

_Fr.Mp 5~6 frame start up and 3 active frames
_Cl.Mk lowered hit box
_Cr.Hp bigger horizontal hit box
_Far.Hp bigger hit box(Stand 1 box away from ken in training room if it hits it perfect) and SF4 frame data -1 on block +3 on hit
_Cr.Hk Old SF4 frames -3~4 on block
_Cl.Hk Better hit box so it doesn’t whiff on Crouchers and 6 frames start up.
_FA allow slight adavantage after dash canling or make the hit box bigger(http://shoryuken.com/wiki/images/b/b5/H.Reflect.jpg) and move it foward.

• SSpiral Damage increased across the board this will increases her overall damage with out over powering her poke game.
  _Lk.110 damage
  _mk.13~14 frames start up. 125 Damage
  _HK.135-140 ** (She would be able to get 235-240 off a cr.hp to H.SS which is higher than the average bnb damage.)**
  _ex.130 damage. frames 1~13 invincible with 14 being throw and projectile invincible or 9 frame start up with current invinciblity.

*SSparks Less recovery across the board 49 for lp and mp 50-51 for Hp.
_Lp.-8~10 on block -4~6 on hit.
_Mp.18~20 frames start up -2 on block +2 on hit
_Hp.22~24 frames start up and kepps current hit annd block data.
_Ex. 110 damage everything else the same.

*SThrow Bigger grab boxes .8~1.0 (with current hit boxes the increased grab range should balance out)

*Bring Ultra 1 to 9 frames of start up, with the current ivincibility or sub frames 10 and 11 as frames of fireball invincibility to end of the regual invincibility. So it would work 1~9 Invincible 10~11 Projectile Invincible .Possibly adjust the U1 hitbox so it wouldnt randomly lose to jumpins and other arieal moves at rose forehead during the start up.

Hey Cerburs, sorry if this sounds demanding i just wanted to make it short and to the point for the Capcom Forums but thank you if you do end up being able to test this for me.

I think its better to make her pokes slightly more damaging than to give soul spiral more damage. It is a great pressuring tool, armor breaks, and leads to u2 mix ups at times. Cerberus is there a way that you can stream the changes so we have a visual of what these changes can do for rose?

[Heavy_Mental]

Most of those changes sound reasonable enough to me. Frankly I’ll be happy just having the U2 input change, increased invincibility on EX Spiral, larger hitbox on cl.MK, and faster U1 startup. Higher damage on Spiral and faster recovery on Spark would be welcome changes but I highly doubt Capcom would implement those. Their balancing approach seems to center more on nerfing their perceived top-tier characters rather than buffing the low and the mid. What little buffs they do implement are usually just minor tweaks.

[Rose]

My biggest are EX Spiral 14f and Focus Attack tbh.