The only thing I want is for them to either A)make lp spiral move further or B)make mp spiral faster so that you can always combo a spiral off of a c.mp
I think if we did that then it would be more difficult to space them if they moved forward.
I definitely think we should come up with a concise list with a reasonable amount of buffs that everyone can agree on by the time we get to the week when the Rose suggestions open up.
I feel like U2 being kicks and 11f ex spiral (and maybe an increased horiz. hitbox on cr.hp) are unanimously agreed on, but most everything else seems to have mixed opinions.
Still play rose and love her, few things i like to see fixed just dont know all the detailed info so spitballing here.
Soul throw issues.
I still do soul throws on some chars and im right in front of their face and it whiffs, while i see char air grabs grab me so far away in the air. Like to see the range extended a bit more.
Like to see soul throws scare dive kicks more then having to burn ex on them all the time. Maybe lp soul throw be super fast but go much sorter air distance to get the dive kick spammers on wake up guessing more. Less dmg on it tho for being able to snag divers on a wake up.
U1 be able to connect on a juggle.
Like HP reflect to not have to be FDAC into a soul throw. its not always easy to connect a HP reflect out of the corner so should be able to get a simple Soul throw out of it or some juggles like other chars that can juggle off lots of different normals. Or make it a better AA to go into a soul throw or juggle into a U1 (might be op or open up new things)
I agree what KazDa973 said about her BNB
FDAC (pretty much what others are asking for)
EX spirals (pretty much what others are asking for)
Do most of you guys like every version of reflects speed? i think maybe one of them to come out faster or recover faster so we dont get caught across the screen from a tele from sim or a U1 from seth with those FB traps? might help more then just being zoned to death. seem so slow on recovery.
Also wanted to ask you guys about making EX reflect a better tool. With burning some meter with making it a better wake up tool, or something better then just FBs.
i know this one is crazy but how about a nice Alpha counter. 8)
These are the mods I’ve done with Rose:
Rose V1
- Cl.MK: move the hitbox downward so it can connect on all characters.
- Cr. fierce larger horizontal hitbox. (encompasses the whole scarf)
- Focus Attack: increased range
- +3 frame advantage on blocked Level 1/2 FA into forward dash (-2/+4)
- Soul Spark L: reduce recovery with 3 frames (49)
- EX Soul Spiral: Startup invincible
- Ultra 1: reduce the start up with 2 frames (10)
- Ultra 2:
- 2x qcb + 3x kick instead of 3x punch
- Add +3 block/hit stun
- Add +25 stun
EXPLANATION:
-The purpose of these buffs would be to be updated. As of now she has received small changes from super to ae 2012 (reverting what was nerfed isn’t something I called buffed).
-Cl.MK is supposed to hit people that tries to cr.tech. Not suppose to put her in a disavantage position.
-The hitbox on cr.HP is usually misleading because of the animation. Also no more issues where the cr.HP whiffs when used as AA. Reinforces her ground pressure
-No movement in her focus attack so she needs range.
-Soul spark buff was needed to help her zoning game against some characters
-EX spiral is suppose to be her reversal. Having 2 frames of nothing between invincible startup and active frames makes her get stuffed by throws and moves with long active frames.
-U1: reduce the startup for better reactions and better AA
-U2: Prevents EX reflect to be triggered. +3 block stun helps make sure not to get countered while doing mixups and helps her do more damaging combos. +25 stun helps making people fear U2 more.
Rose V2
- Cr.MP: Slightly decrease hurtbox. +10 damage (60>70)
- Cl.MK: move the hitbox downward so it can connect on all characters.
- Cl.HP: +2 active frames (2>4)
- Cr.HK: Decreased startup by 2F (9F>7F)
- Cr. fierce larger horizontal hitbox. (encompasses the whole scarf)
- Far St.MP: Active frame increased from 2F->3F. Startup at 5F
- Focus Attack: increase range. +2 frame advantage on blocked Level 1/2 FA into forward dash (-3/+3)
- Soul Spark L: reduce recovery with 3 frames (52>49) M: reduce startup by 1F (22>21) and recovery by 1F (52>51) H: reduce startup by 3F (29>26) EX: +10 damage (30+70>40+70)
- Soul Spiral: Decrease startup by 2 on all regular versions (10F/13F/14F). EX: Recovery reduced by 5F, Frame advantage from -6F>-2F. Damage increased to 130 (120>130)
- Soul Throw: All regular invincible frames between frame 5 to 7
- Illusion Spark: Startup reduced by 2F (12>10).
- Soul Satellite: 2x qcb + 3x kick instead of 3x punch. Hitbox appears on the 1st activation frame (trades at best)
EXPLANATION:
Reinforce her main pokes. Damage boost makes her more near getting 200 bnb damages (average is 210+)
More active frames on Cl.HP allows her to have more variety with her frame traps and meaties
Changes on cr.HK / far st.MP allows her to reinforce her footsie tools
Soul Spark changes makes her zoning better
EX spiral changes makes it not punishable by normals on block considering she can be countered before the active frames.
If you get the time could you test these 5 things.
Cr.LK: Reduce recovery by 1 frame (I just want to know how much this would help her.)
Increase the damage on lp by 10 points. (this would get her bnb to 200 on average i believe)
J.mp having a juggle property kind of like ryu’s j.mp. {reduce damage from 70>50) ( I was thinking about it and it would give soul throw some more use out of having to FADC. She’d get a meterless 210 damage option but it wouldn’t be something she’d use much.)
Alter her soul spiral damage values L(Stays at 100) M(100>110) H(100>120) Ex:130 (Since mp spiral doesn’t normally connect and hk spiral is rarely used the reward should be greater.)
Also you know how she gains damage on her soul sparks from reflects? How about if her reflects also gave her spirals the same ability as the spark? That way the rose player could chose which attack they want.
(I want to know what this would do to her game as well.)
only these or you want to combine this with other stuff already mentionned ? like the list you did in the earlier post with my stuff ? And I can’t do anything about the damage gain from reflect to spirals
I want these combined with the other buffs but i’d like to know how they would help her out.
if I do Genistar’s list with Rose V2 changes: (combos were tested on Akuma)
Cr.LK: Reduce recovery by 1 frame (I just want to know how much this would help her.)
- able to hit confirm into a meterless U2 combo
- able to link with cr.HP (cl.HP on counter hit)
- cr.lk, cr.HP xx H.Spiral = 226 damage
- cr.lk, cr.lk, cr.HP xx H.Spiral = possible (224 damage)
Increase the damage on lp by 10 points. (this would get her bnb to 200 on average i believe)
cr.lp, cr.lk, cr.mp xx spiral = 200 damage
cr.lp, cr.lp, cr.lk, cr.mp xx ex spiral = 211 damage
J.mp having a juggle property kind of like ryu’s j.mp. {reduce damage from 70>50) ( I was thinking about it and it would give soul throw some more use out of having to FADC. She’d get a meterless 210 damage option but it wouldn’t be something she’d use much.)
All of these were done midscreen with no FADC
can connect ANYTHING (normals, special moves, super, ultra) with j.mp
extremely easy to confirm into U1 with j.mp = 472 damage meterless
can also do j.mp > HP reflect > soul throw = 240 damage meterless
can do j.mp > j.mp > soul throw = 268 damage meterless
j.mp > soul throw = 230 damage meterless
**
Alter her soul spiral damage values L(Stays at 100) M(100>110) H(100>120) Ex:130 (Since mp spiral doesn’t normally connect and hk spiral is rarely used the reward should be greater.)**
overall GREATER damage output (btw I use hk spiral a lot more than LP and MK spirals just to tell you)
Also you know how she gains damage on her soul sparks from reflects? How about if her reflects also gave her spirals the same ability as the spark? That way the rose player could chose which attack they want.
(I want to know what this would do to her game as well.)
can’t do that since this has to do with the code in the engine and I don’t know how to change these.
Overall I felt Rose…wasn’t Rose at all. I felt like playing UMVC3. Rose is suppose to keep it simple and focus on her footsies / zoning tools and surprise her opponents during the match. I still don’t feel Rose needs to have her damage output like the rest. She is one of those characters that will be able to do her bnbs most of the time in the matches compare to characters like Ryu or even Sagat and Honda. That’s why I think her cr.lp and cr.lk should be left as it is. The +10 damage buff on cr.mp and EX Spiral helps achieve that “200 damage”. Yes you are using one of the fastest meter builders in the game so it shouldn’t be a problem. Also the fact she can hit confirm into a meterless U2 is a bit too much (cr.lk, cr.lk, U2) from my point of view)
j.MP needs no explanation. Its an easy access to everything. Heavy damage, Combos, Mixups. Anything. Completely destroys the character’s archtype and makes her look like a character from UMVC3. Also makes her be able to cover both air and ground games now.
All I have to say with the damage buffs on the spirals is that you have to think about 2 things:
- How safe they are on block compare to other special moves (and we have the ability to space it)
- Do she really need that ? Can’t she have better options ?
So yeah, it was easy to change these because I’ve already tested these before.
I only thought about 2 things from her j.mp. Is it possible to give it restrictions to what she can and cannot combo into? I didn’t really think it would become easily broken like that. What i was thinking was that she could only combo j.mp into a special and nothing else. Like try restricting j.mp to being able to be used once in a combo and reducing the damage from 70-30 so it becomes 190. I’m just very interested on what can be done to it.
(this was just something extra i wanted to see out of curiosity.)
Damage buffs on her main special move would be too much since it armor breaks already.
i want her combos not to be 1frame links…
I tried giving it the same effects as her HP reflect but she’s still able to connect with any types of projectiles (so ex spark / super / U2) and soul throw. Still a lot from my point of view
I can’t believe that they’re still patching SF4!
Anyway, I disagree with most of the above, especially comboing into U1 (whut), cr.LK - I think I said this long ago, but Rose is a zoning/poking character with low damage and iffy reversal. She is not a combo monster, rushdown queen, or mixup fanatic. There are other characters for that.
I do agree with the following though
slight increase in horizontal range for cr.HP - nice. cr.HP is already crazy whiff punishable, so this really helps with the anti-air. If anything, I would like the hitbox to also go up a bit, as Rose is very vulnerable to deep hitting jumpins now (Sakura HP, claw HP) and this really shouldn’t be the case.
lower hitbox for cl.mk - no brainer. I don’t know why this even comes up. People should not be able to duck under this with cr.lk or similar.
I think that we also need something for neutral jumps. Something needs to have a crossup hitbox, say nj.mk or nj.hp, for the situations where we anticipate a horizontal control move (e.g. Fei Rekka) and neutral jump over it, but we can’t come down with anything and get thrown/whatever on landing anyway. I don’t think this detracts from Rose’s archetype (good neutral game, we made a good read to neutral jump) and helps with many of Roses’ horrible matchups (Fei, Yun) who can completely bypass the neutral game with just ex.rekka or ex.lunchpunch and get in for free.
nj.hp’s hitbox just looks like it should, but it doesn’t. =/
I think im going to look at some of the hitboxes on some of her less used moves. Btw do you guys think we could make her far.st.hp better in anyway? Its some what decent at catching far jump ins and is good at stuffing lows. I just feel that it can be better.
You need to think beyond that tbh. She isn’t just about zoning and poking. She has a little bit of everything. Also the buffs doesn’t make her be a crazy mixup or pressure character. Except for the cr.lk and j.mp changes, she is still the same. Each people have their opinions about how balancing her but you need to keep in mind that:
1- You are still playing Super version of Rose no matter how you look at it, while the majority of them have buffed / takes more advantage of how the game works. If she was indeed fine with how she is now, she would end up being in the top 15 characters, she wouldn’t have glaring flaws and most of her matchups would either be even or her advantage.
2- If we are going for an update, Capcom won’t do that to change some small stuff. It won’t be “reduce the startup of HP reflect by 1F” or “give Guile +10 damage on sonic boom”. We are expecting big changes so that people still have fun when they play a game that’s 5 years old. Of course we are not trying to break her archtype but trying to improve it. It’s possible to do and if we can maximize it without breaking her then I don’t see why it shouldn’t be done.
We’re still playing Super Rose, because Super Rose really did work. Rose will never be top in this engine because she doesn’t have vortex, as simple as that. We need like 10 reads a game to win, vortex characters need like 1. Sucks to like zoners, I guess, but what can you do? Everybody else hates zoners. =p If I could have 0 recovery U2 back, that would be sweet, but honestly, that move caused so much ill will towards Rose that I’m fine with giving it up. No reason why Rose should have a completely safe and risk free reversal anyway.
The only one big change that I would do is ex.spiral being completely invincible until hitting (not even decreasing startup, so meaty jabs are still safe if you have the reaction to stop), and -4 on block. Think Honda ex.headbutt, but with slower startup to compensate for the fact that it’s not a charge move.
I think that’s way too much, but that change alone would boost Rose up the ranks considerably, while still maintaining some semblance of her character. Either that or decrease the startup 1 frame (or was it 2?) rather than increase the invincibility if you’re worried about ex spiral becoming the ultimate anti-fireball at midscreen.
So you would have ex.Soul Throw for anti-air, and ex.spiral for reversaling. At -4, this is a crazy good reset no reason why you wouldn’t mash it out between blockstrings kind of move. You don’t even need charge! Jump back punishable, but that’s better than most DPs. At least we don’t get to FADC it into ultra like Rufus, but you do get a free meaty.
You know, thinking about it, -4 is way too good on block at point blank, since it’s mashable. It needs to be punishable like a jab DP at least.
Oh yeah, and c.mp needs it’s hitbox reduced back to Super at least. Rose should be famous for her c.mp. Ryu’s c.mp should not be better than Rose’s! Rose should own that space in front of her.
fei long isn’t a vortex character
adon isn’t a vortex character
viper lost her position as top 5
I get your point about vortex character but that isn’t what makes them good
That change on Ex spiral would only solve the problem of her getting hit before her active frames. It still can be OS’ed and such and when used as a reversal, -4 is still huge. So no, it wouldn’t boost Rose’s rank anywhere. Specially since other people are getting buffed and god knows what. Honda’s ex headbutt no only has much more invincibility (1~8f Invincible, 9~32f lower body projectile invincible, 10f~ airborne) but its also 5F fasters, gives pushback so even if it’s at -8, Rose is much more punishable than Honda. No, there is no comparison.
hitbox on cr.mp was never changed contrary to popular beliefs
and super rose really did work…in super. where zoning and footsies were a lot more powerful before. Ever since they changed that aspect from AE, while other character kept getting buffed she didn’t lost her position per say but her you can’t play like you were doing in Super because tools of other people got buffed while you stayed the same. Rose now has to rely on trying to keep the neutral game in her favor and maximize her damage by going in: exactly what we are trying to buff the most.
Fei is good because c.jab (3 frame) goes into rekka (safe) and corner carries on hit, leading to… ambigious safe mixup. I think it’s the j.mp? That chop? Crazy good. I wouldn’t call it vortex, true, but it’s the same low risk high reward forced mixup bull that the top characters have.
Adon might be top because of his j.hk ambigious crossup pressure and throw? It’s certainly not his neutral game getting him there. Again, easy safe mixup.
To get Rose there, you’re talking Vanilla Sagat - good neutral game, no excellent mixups but if he hits you, you’re dead. So we don’t need to make 10 reads, we need to make 1 good read. Is that where we really want Rose? Or we turn j.mk into Adon j.hk, but then we turn Rose into mixup queen - not the best for character and playstyle diversity, IMO.
Increasing the damage on her BnBs may make it so that we need 8 reads instead of 10, but that doesn’t really change much on the top end (if you want to make Rose actually competitive). I think that’s neither here nor there, and would certainly be much less of a buff than a guaranteed reversal, which opens up options that Rose never had before.
On c.mp nerf - see [this thread](I’m confused about AE Rose’s new Hitbox Has it been so long ago? Man. There’s like pictures of the hitboxes and links to the Capcom blog and all that. They did nerf the boxes, like they nerfed the boxes on all c.mps. They should give Rose her c.mp back - that’s a real buff to her neutral game, like how she should be.
On the ex.spiral, doesn’t it have 13 frames of invincibility now, first hit frame on frame 14? I remember there’s a 1 frame or 2 frame gap between the invincibility running out and the hitting frames beginning. Hell. I’ll wiki it. Ok, it’s 1-11f invincible, 13 frame startup, so 2 vulnerable frames between invincibility running out and the hitting frames starting. That’s 2 frames more than ex. headbutt.
Ex.headbutt is startup 8f, and is invincible until the 8th frame, so you never can stuff it completely, unlike ex.spiral. That’s the difference. It’s actually -8 on block, but not much can reach Honda on block, so call it safe (I think Ibuki U2 does? Maybe Chun Super? For all intents and purposes, safe). On the other hand, Honda can’t set anything up after ex.headbutt on hit, unlike ex.spiral. Rose can set up crossup, meaties, safe slide, U2, anything. Honda gets to build meter.
Compared with ex.pinwheel, Juri is -14 on block, startup of 7 frames and 6f invincibility, so a 1 frame gap, but is throw invincible during that gap (and is airborne after). I think that’s comparable with what we have.
ex.messiah is 11 frame startup, 16f invincibility, so he gets to blow through everything. If blocked you need to play a high/low guessing game (which is safe on block, either 0 or -1 depending on high or low (M or H), but both are interruptable) or risk getting your interrupting move blown up by the L followup (flip kick) which has 14 frames of invincibility. This is the best deal so far. If no followup, Rufus is -14.
Shoryus actually are -17 on block at least. Most of it is airborne, though, and there’s no frame data on how long they’re vulnerable grounded, but I believe 4 frames is about right.
So you know what? I changed my mind, -4f on block ex.spiral is way out of line, and unreasonable. Currently, Rose is -6, and with 6 active frames, you can make it 0 with good spacing (irrelevant in a reversal situation). If ex.spiral was -4 on block, you could make it +2 with spacing. Honda and Rufus wish they could get +0 on a headbutt/messiah.
I would keep frame disadvantage on block as is, and push for 1-13f invincibility. If Capcom thinks she needs more disadvantage frames on the end of it to balance the move, so be it - L spiral is -8, make ex.spiral -8 as well - even if spaced well, you are at least at -2, which is still good against everything but SPD.
Yes a lot characters have that and they still aren’t top 5. Rufus’s dive kick / Ryu’s cl.HK / etc. Yes it is good but it’s not the j.mp that makes Fei long good. By this definition Rose having the ability to have U2 twice in a match and be able to do her mixups that leads to 400+ damage should make her have almost the same results as Fei no ?
Again, no. These kind of characters dont revolve around that to win compare to Cammy, Seth, Akuma.
I never said I wanted Rose top tier. But she definitely can get better and she doesn’t need to be vanilla sagat. She doesn’t need to have that sudden burst of damage or impossible to footsie her. her j.MK is almost as ambiguous as it can get, specially with the addition of j.HP and j.LK. I still don’t see where in the propositions of getting Rose buffed you got that idea.
explain more. Because you talking about increasing her damage and compare it to reversals and that it makes her have more options. I’m a bit confused.
I’ve seen Rose hitboxes. I thought it got nerfed in AE too. But I have Rose’s data from PC and judging from that: No it was changed at all.
Setting up things should give you more results at the end of the day and the most effective one is U2. There are no meaties or safe slides after ex spiral. Honda’s headbutt on the other hand makes you fly to the other part of the screen and if it brings you closer to the corner then he has much more advantages. Again we are talking about a reversal situation and how punishable it is if blocked. So setups are still irrelevant in this context.
In some way yes. But the 7F startups makes it more mashable than Rose’s Ex spiral, and indeed throw invincible so she doesn’t get stuffed by grabs when she wants to think above her opponent. Compare to Rose. So the only comparison I could do is that they both don’t have their whole startup covered by invincibility. Other than that, they have nothing in common.
You forgot to say that Rufus also has the ability to delay his follow ups, which is why he also has the ability to bypass shoryukens if timed right. He also has the ability to bypass fireballs from midscreen and FADC to ultra. Things that Rose doesn’t have.
It’s more than that. But also FADCable and a lot of them are only -1 to -3 at worst after FADC.
Why ? They don’t need to be 0 on headbutt or messiah. Their moves dont get interrupted by normals and throws. They are way less punishable then Rose’s ex spiral in a reversal situation, etc.
Well with the fact that EX spiral is 13F startup, so pretty much near what the human eye can react to (usually is 15F) and the fact that it flashes yellow, you can pretty much react to a Rose that tries to space a EX spiral (which would also be a dumb move to do)