It doesn’t hurt to take Akuma matches seriously in case you do go to a tourney that allows him.
I lOVE playing against akuma with honda.It’s the quintessential “work hard to get in, then terrorize him when you do” match. If you can get in on a good keepaway akuma, you know your anti fireball game is rock solid, and with honda’s strength, and akuma’s nerfed damage taking ability it’s always funny to see someone pick the demon and do his best to keep you out for 90 seconds, and then eventually fuck up and die a horrible ochio buttsmash torpedo death with about 3 seconds left on the clock.:lovin:
Here is my sligthly revised matchup analysis! I updated the Honda matchups a bit with some more details and corrections, mostly from playing against strong players and lowering my opinion of Honda’s power level a bit.
Most notably I’ve changed:
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Honda-Sagat from 5.5-4.5 to 4.5-5.5 (after facing defensive Sagats, I now think Sagat actually has the advantage)
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Honda-Bison from 7-3 to 6-4 (mostly I was crazy for thinking it was 7-3, Bison has too many tricks)
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Honda-Vega from 7-3 to 6.5-3.5 (after facing Vegas that know how to safely straight-crossup walldive)
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Honda-Cammy from 8-2 to 7.5-2.5 (because I fall too often for Hooligan Throws)
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I’m tempted to move Honda-DeeJay from 3.5-6.5 to 4-6 because I beat so many DeeJays, but I’ll hold on it a bit.
vs Ryu: 3-7
I think Ryu is Honda’s worst matchup overall, mostly because of his awesome game at fullscreen. Ryu throws a fireball, Honda reacts, then Ryu can technically cleanly beat any of Honda’s reactions with a well-placed walk-up sweep. Ryu also gets a major, huge bonus out of his super, which can totally shut down Honda - once he gets it, suddenly Honda can eat 40% damage for doing anything, including his super.
Also, this might just be me, but I fall for Ryu’s fake fireball all the frigging time
vs Ken: 3.5-6.5
Ken is also pretty tough for Honda. He has a slightly crappier version of Ryu’s fireball-sweep trap, but to make up for it he has the extrawesome jab shoryuken, which can stop Honda’s pressure dead at any goddamn point and is pretty tough to punish. A lot of fighting Ken is waiting for him to randomly screw up and try to psychic DP, but if Ken decides to not screw up, then Honda can wait for a pretty long time.
Still, I think Ken is slightly easier than Ryu for Honda, because his super can’t match the devastating Ryu Super Fireball. It’s hard to use and much more unsafe that Ryu’s.
vs Akuma: 3.5-6.5
See Ken. Air fireball is almost a non-issue in Akuma vs Honda, because Honda can either jab headbutt or forward buttslam through them and fuck up Akuma, and the air fireball does no damage anyway. Yeah Akuma can red fireball to screw up Honda’s jab headbutts, but the red fireball has stupid recovery, so Honda gets a free hit if he guesses the red fireball correctly, even from fullscreen I think. And Honda getting a free hit on Akuma is extra powerful, so in practice, Akuma doesn’t really get to spam red fireballs. Like with Ken, the jab shoryuken and his fireball+sweep traps are the real threat here.
Akuma gets a stamina penalty so he should be easier than Ken, but his super and his crossup shenanigans are extra good, so it balances out.
vs Dee Jay: 3.5-6.5
Honda’s old nemesis is back, and he means business. Dee Jay has all the punch of Ryu’s fireball-sweep traps, his slide stuffs a million things, his Max Outs have incredible hitboxes, great pushback, and come out really fast, and he can do fake Max Outs with one of his crouching punches which I totally fall for every time. On top of that, if he ever lands a combo, the easily-dizzied Honda is in deep shit. And to top it all, he has the most obnoxious jumping jab in the game (to Honda at least).
There’s only two things that prevent Dee Jay from being Honda’s #1 worst matchup. #1 is that unlike the shotos, he can’t rapid-fire his projectiles, so Honda does have some breathing room. #2 is that Honda can totally neutralize his wakeup reversal upkicks with a well-placed crouching roundhouse (if Dee-Jay tries to wakeup upkick, it will totally whiff against Honda’s crouching roundhouse, leaving him open for punishment), so at least Honda has a solid position when he knocks Dee Jay down. Dee Jay’s super can still beat this though.
As a trivia point, every one of Honda’s buffs from ST sees great use against Dee Jay, going a long way to make this formerly horrible matchup a lot closer. Floating fierce -> fierce HHS, tripguard jumping short, damaging super,
vs Guile: 4-6
Yes, Guile has an advantage in this matchup. Yes, his Sonic Boom + Flash Kick traps can be troublesome for Honda. But something important to realize is that Guile’s Sonic Booms are not that good, especially compared to Dee Jay’s Max Outs. They have a tiny hitbox, they have little push back, and they come out slowly enough that Honda can base his entire matchup on the reaction buttslam: Honda gets to midrange, waits for a sonic boom, then as soon as it comes out, he buttslams through it.
That technique alone brings the Honda-Guile matchup to very manageable levels for Honda. Both players must have a very patient, reactive style in this matchup, and avoid random jumps at all costs. Guile still has the advantage if he knows how to deal with this (Guile’s jumping punches beat the buttslam, crouch HP can trade with it), but Honda has tools of his own to counter that (floating punch over the boom -> HP slaps or a jump-in, anticipation jab headbutt, delaying the buttslam until the very last instant to beat the jumping attack), so at high levels it becomes more of a mind games situation.
vs Sagat: 4.5-5.5
Sagat looks tougher than he really is. You’d think that he could fireball-trap Honda to death, but the truth is that he is so big that he’s constantly vulnerable to a jumping fierce, and almost constantly vulnerable to jab headbutts. Keep in mind that low tiger shots are also very vulnerable to anticipation fierce headbutts. Still, one dizzy is all it takes for Sagat to drain Honda’s lifebar to almost nothing, he still does great at maximum range, and his jump roundhouse still works well to stop an advancing Honda. Honda just has to watch out for that dizzy, and play super defensive every time he gets hit to avoid it, while Sagat has to resist the temptation to throw Tiger shots as soon as he can - his wait-and-bait game is good here.
Also remember how that jab headbutt hits Sagat out of fireballs by just stepping a bit away from the corner before doing it, and how jumping fierce between rapid-fire fireballs can hit Sagat surprisingly easily, even from fullscreen.
vs Chun Li: 5-5
Chun Li has a surprising amount of moves that work well here. She can do a variant of the classic shoto fireball trap (throw a fireball, then either sweep jump-ins or walk-up throw jab headbutts), she can lightning kick basically everything, her jump kicks have amazing priority and will stuff Honda’s specials most of the time. Basically as long as she’s not backed into a corner, she can do reasonably well.
She’s totally fucked if she backs into a corner, though. Her upkicks totally suck, too, so on knockdown, Honda can have a lot of fun doing a million buttslams, if he delays them just long enough to avoid the reversal frame. In general, Honda can also jump on her mid-fight much more safely than against most of the cast. I considered putting this matchup as Honda’s advantage, but the last time I did that, I was kicked out of Evo by a Chun Li, so I’ll wait to see more high level Chun Li players before saying more on this.
vs Balrog (Boxer): 6-4
Honda’s key move here is the sweep. Sweep at round start is totally safe, beats Balrog’s rush punches and headbutts, and in general it’s an awesome move to interrupt whichever rush Balrog might want to do, or on Balrog’s wakeup. Balrog can just mash low jabs all day and bait Honda to do anything, while charging a turn punch / buffalo headbutt, but Honda can mash hands all day to build meter and stop most rushes too.
Honda can fierce HHS to break the standoff with chip damage, but Balrog can stop them with rapid jabs. Honda’s jump-ins are surprisingly effective, for some reason. Honda’s ochio also prevents most of Balrog’s throw strategies. Balrog could be devastated by this, but in practice, his awesome super evens the matchup a bit. Honda should just drop everything and just block when Balrog gets his super, seriously.
vs Bison (Dictator): 6-4
Bison has no reversal and no reliable anti-air, meaning that one knockdown is all it takes for Honda to bring the pain with repeated jumptick Oichos and buttslams, especially in the corner. Bison’s only chance is to use standing jab to counter the headbutts and HHSs, and use unreliable circus tricks to somehow confuse Honda. Even his trusty block strings won’t do much to Honda, who can just MK buttslam out of them whenever he gets bored, at basically zero risk.
Bison’s headstomp is definitely one of his most useful moves against Honda ; he should try to convert that headstomp into a crossup dizzy combo, which is easier said than done against an awake Honda, or do a few repeated headstomps to rape Honda’s charges. Even his regular jump-in touch of death combos aren’t that useful, because Honda has so many ways to punish jump-ins.
vs Blanka: 6.5-3.5
I used to put this matchup as 7-3, but I’ve lost too many times to fake roll -> bite to maintain that. Still, this matchup is dead stupid for Honda: when Blanka jumps or rolls at you, jab headbutt, and otherwise, just hold down-back. If you block a Blanka ball, fierce headbutt back to even out the chip damage.
Blanka only has two real threats here: fake roll into bite, and the crossup jumping short dance. Both can be neutralized with a jab headbutt before they start, but Honda has to be awake. Honda can also just stick out crouching jabs periodically to stuff Blanka’s fake rolls or hops, while still being able to react to a jump-in. If Blanka gets into the crossup dance, attempt a stored oicho on the first two, then jump jab your way to freedom against any following jump shorts - you’ll typically have enough frame advantage to pull it off then. If Blanka ever gets a life lead somehow, headbutt him right after he lands from any jump for some chip damage, build some free super with jab hands if he stays unmoving at fullscreen, or jab -> fierce HHS for some chip damage (it often beats his electricity if the HHS hits from maximum range).
vs Vega (Claw): 6.5-3.5
This matchup is pretty bad for Vega mostly because of one thing: when Vega gets knocked down, if Honda does a crossup against waking up Vega, Vega can not practically avoid taking damage, because he loses his horizontal charge on crossup. Honda also gets out of wall dive shenanigans for free with the roundhouse buttslam, and can jab headbutt most wall dives that doesn’t touch Honda’s wall first, which knocks down Vega in the perfect position for a free Honda crossup splash -> ochio or a crossup roundhouse buttslam.
Vega can somehow do a straight walldive that Honda can’t hit with jab headbutt if he does it deep enough, (though it’s pretty rare to see Vega players actually doing it).
Still, as if that wasn’t bad enough, Honda usually gets the advantage if they trade hits, and he can MK buttslam out of Vega’s block strings whenever he feels like it. Honda’s splash (down+MK) hits or trades with practically everything from Vega for some reason. It’s easy for Honda to get life advantage in this matchup, and even easier to keep it.
vs Dhalsim: 7-3
Buttslam in general is hugely difficult for Dhalsim to deal with, as are headbutts. Jab headbutt and super headbutt in particular are really good, because they’re nice option selects that beat both Dhalsim’s pokes and his fireballs (though remember that Dhalsim can punish a blocked super with MK). Dhalsim can do okay if he keeps Honda at fullscreen by throwing periodic fireballs and punishing all Honda advances with his limbs, but because his fireballs are so small, Honda can actually walk forward out of fullscreen and jump over fireballs towards Dhalsim to start his scariness.
Dhalsim is also completely, utterly screwed if he’s cornered and Honda is on top of him. His teleport bug means he will not escape that corner tick ochio, and even after the ochio, Honda can do a deadly mixup between HHS and jumping splash -> ochio - and even if Dhalsim guesses right on that mixup, Honda can just reversal buttslam on him again afterwards.
vs Fei Long: 7-3
Honda’s key move here is reaction LK or MK buttslam against chicken wing: it beats it clean and puts Honda in a great position for a crossup buttslam dance. It beats the rekka punches, too, but you’re not going to be able to react to those fast enough. Fei Long’s best chance here is actually to just spam standing HP, which interrupts every Honda special move. It does lose to Honda’s far sweep, though, so for a “best strategy”, it’s not that effective.
Honda should just turtle, build super with jab hands, and forward buttslam every time Fei Long gets too close. He can also do vertical jump HP pretty safely (beats the chicken wing and many jump-ins, makes rekkas whiff -> ochio). Against standing HP spammers, random jump-ins also work decently.
vs Zangief: 7-3
Fierce HHS advancing + jab headbutt against jump-ins wins most of this matchup for Honda. There is only one thing Zangief can reasonably do against this: spam crouching jabs to stop the HHS and headbutts, then when Honda moves forward to far sweep Zangief, Zangief can jump-in safely, then try to tick SPD from a distance. Unfortunately for Zangief, that’s pretty hard to do. Unfortunately for Honda, when it works, it’s fairly devastating.
Honda can still escape from ticks with fierce headbutts or buttslams - buttslams usually work better since you can piano them. The reason Honda doesn’t really want to jab headbutt out of a Zangief tick throw attempt is that somehow Zangief can SPD the reversal jab headbutt. I have no idea how the medium headbutt fares here, but since buttslam mostly works (Zangief can still lariat the descending reversal buttslam if he’s a superhero), I haven’t needed to try anything else.
vs Cammy: 7.5-2.5
Honda’s HHS is maddeningly effective here, it will beat or trade with most of Cammy’s stuff. For instance, a round opening of jab HHS will stuff most Cammy openings, including at least one of her Thrust Kicks. If Cammy ever gets into a neutral jumping MP mood, it’s fairly easy to randomly fierce headbutt one of them, or just jump on her. Or for even more fun, just get a life lead and stand in your corner, putting out HHSs of various strengths all the time and using your super whenever she leaves the ground.
vs T. Hawk: 8-2
Jab headbutt everything. Far sweep his low jabs if you get bored. But mostly jab headbutt everything. GG.
Ok, Hawk can do a mixup between walk-in DP and walk-in throw (and probably should, if he’s behind in life). But it’s incredibly risky.
The only reason I’d say Honda v Chun is 4-6 Chun, is because it’s not all that easy to put Chun in the corner, and she still has some line of defense. It’s just much harder to pull off because she’s essentially relying on neutral J.Hp and making you land on a fireball by that point. Still, it’s definitely a lot easier for Honda than most fireball characters, and it’s not all that slanted in Chun’s favor, I think.
I don’t think you should factor in things like ‘Ken is so tempted to just throw out super leaving him very vulnerable’ in a match-up analysis. That’s a stupid player, nothing to do with the character. Like I don’t know if you meant this to be personal or objective, but making a matchup better in Blanka’s favor because fake roll into bite gets you a lot? I mained Blanka for a little bit and it definitely felt 7-3 in Honda’s favor to me. Blanka has no good answers to headbutts and handslaps. S.lk or a perfectly spaced j.mk (if you time it wrong you trade and it’s not worth it). Blanka gets knocked down on a traded headbutt and it’s bad news. As long as Honda stays on the ground, even his reversal upball will be punishable on hit. You shouldn’t be scared of fake ball bite because Blanka’s rolling attacks really aren’t very useful against Honda. Hit or block, it allows Honda to get closer to you, handslaps will chip him back and make it even on block, and put him in scary range. Honda’s pressure just fucks Blanka up. The only thing you can do against ochio ticks is like reversal upball which you can punish on hit, especially in the corner. Blanka can win if he can get off a crossup but honestly getting that close is really difficult against a good Honda.
In other news, I would love to play some Dhalsim v Honda, I need work on that matchup.
Actually, if Honda is being aggressive, Blanka has two very good answers to headbutts and handslaps: jumping LK and electricity. Both can get Honda into a lot of crossup pain! Electricity wins against handslaps that are not done from the very max range, and if Honda gets tempted to sweep it he can eat a surprise ball or jumping LK.
You’re right that my specific mention of stupid Ken super is out of place, but really I think that starting from actual observations is the best way to do this. For instance, yes in theory fake ball into bite can be reacted to every time by Honda, but in practice what I see is that it often does work, and when it works, it’s very strong.
Yeah, I guess I didn’t think about electricity. I didn’t mean to say Honda should be overly aggressive, I think he should play more on the defensive side, but most his pressure options are just awkward as hell to deal with as Blanka. The risk v reward for things like j.lk is not very good. I hated trading with shit like that.
Another thing really good Blankas like to pull out is jumping out of electricity into a far j.HK, which is INCREDIBLY fast and has very deceptive range. A rock solid Honda wins the fight, but Blanka is so damn fast and that jumping LK has such a good hitbox that it almost becomes a test of reaction time. Plus I seem to see new Blanka tricks pop up a lot lately. As a Rog and Honda player (two characters that own Blanka on paper), I find the best Blankas with out a doubt keep me on my toes.
Cool, haven’t done this in a while.
CHAR MAY 15
Akuma 3.5-6.5
Blanka 5-5
Boxer 5-5
Chun 4-6
Claw 6-4
DeeJay 4-6
Dhalsim 5-5
Dictator 5.5-4.5
Fei 6.5-3.5
Guile 4.5-5.5
Hawk 6.5-3.5
Ken 3.5-6.5
Ryu 4-6
Sagat 5-5
Zangief 7-3
I still think Ken is Honda’s worst matchup. I actually think his fireball-antiair game is stronger than Ryu’s because his fireball moves more slowly (and is therefore harder to jump/float fierce/buttslam over or headbutt through), he actually recovers a tiny bit faster than Ryu after throwing his fireball, and his fierce dragon punch covers a gigantic arc. Add all those things up, and it means that Ken can walk forward faster after throwing a fireball than Ryu can both because it’s easier for him to follow his slower fb and because he recovers from the fb faster, and then if you jump, he has this gigantic dragon punch that can tag you from a third of a screen away. On top of that, you have to actually worry about him waking up with fierce dragon punch now (since it now actually knocks down and does really good damage). His fierce dp comes out instantly, meaning you can’t do meaty pressure on him like you can with Ryu. Against Ryu, you get safe max range standing jab as a meaty every single time, no matter what he does, but with Ken you have to worry that he’ll do his fierce dp.
Akuma is about the same in difficult, but not quite as bad. His lack of the huge fierce dp range means it’s not as hard for you to get in, and once you get in, yes, he has instant dps too, but at least he takes significantly more damage than Ken when you actually hit him.
There’s no way this match is 7-3. I think it’s close to even and I waffle back and forth about each character having a slight advantage in the match.
I do agree with some of what you’re saying here. You’re right that Dhalsim is screwed if you get him into the corner. And even if he does escape, he’ll probably take decent damage before he gets that opening. However, that and the buttslams only become a problem if you let Honda get close enough.
On the ground Sim’s cr.LP beats all of Honda’s specials(Headbutt, Super, HHS). Sim can also counter anything Honda does from the air. And if Sim scores a knockdown he can do a meaty flame for free to push Honda back out. So, against a good Sim, the only way for Honda to get in is to trick him.
I will say that this match is probably easier for Honda online than it is offline. Since Sim has to use a wide array of precisely timed normals to counter Honda’s attempts to get in, it’s a lot harder to respond even with a little lag. Maybe that’s why this feels so lopsided to you. But offline, I think this match is about even.
Totally agree with all of this.
even if dhalsim has counter
in actual play its very easy for honda to trade hits with dhalsims normals and fireballs (hit him in the mouth right when the fire is coming out), mostly with headbutt or hhs
I try to trade on purpose, its a lazy way to win since the trade damage is so much in honda’s favor
I think this match is more work for dhalsim
when I fight dhalsims if feels like they can limit when I can attack, but making me wait isn’t the same as dealing damage, it feels like its in my favor
I Feel that the Honda v Blanka should look more like 5.5-4.5 (Hondas favor) or maybe even 5-5 i am sure you beat a whole lot of bad blankas online, just as much as a beat all the crappy hondas online, but when I match against you(Thelo), Megaman, kuroppi, Mr. X64, or mad possum I often break even overall.
BlueTallCans
Totally agree with this.
Same. I never knew the extent ST Blanka crossups could screw Honda up until I played Bluetallcans.
Yeah I mean I thought it was only like 6-4 in ST, and now blanka balls are better and electricity comes out more easily. Not gigantic changes for the Honda matchup, but they help him a bit. Easier fierce slaps helps Honda a bit, but again not terribly much, and in any case it’s not as big a change as safer blanka balls.
Very true that match up was a little harder in ST. Specially since honda could reversal headbutt blocked blanka balls that made that match super annoying
Ditto.
Wow, I have to agree with the logic of this analysis and in terms of order and tier ranking too. Lately, I’m finding that some players and even skillful ones that use Claw and Blanka like to play the turtling game in which they sit back and try to counter you with jumping jabs and/or shorts and bait you to come in. Nothing new about this tactic and of course they will try to mix-up some offensive attacks in between. In these scenarios, I would normally adapt and play the same game by using some turtling tactics of my own and use it against them and then implement some of the shenanigans/strategies as Thelo has mentioned. Basically the twist is to force them to come to you. Once you knock them down, you have some options, even better if you get them into a corner. Honda has great countering abilities as well as offensive and for me it always boils down to mind games and anticipation.
Also I always take advantage of Honda’s ability to absorb less damage when trading hits with other characters (especially on Hawk) minus the Honda mirror matches of course.
I gotta disagree with this. Coming from playing DJ to playing Honda I’ve seen both sides of the matchup and this is extremely frustrating for Honda. Sure, DJ can’t fireball trap but he doesn’t need to as he answers for everything Honda does:
- st. strong or upkicks beat all jump-ins, with upkicks leading to a good deal of damage and possibly super
- cr. strong, cr. forward and cr. jab beat all of Honda’s ground moves up close. Heck, cr. strong alone stuffs everything I’m pretty sure.
As for cr. roundhouse beating upkicks, it’s a good tool but it doesn’t level the playing field in the slightest. DJ can reversal sobat and hit Honda for it; this seems a stretch, but then I would also question why DJ is going to try reversal upkick if you’re not right next to him (ie. Oicho range).
As with the shotos, this becomes a mind game of trying to get in, but DJ punishes Honda more for failed attempts than the shotos do in many cases (upkicks combo) and has better space controlling normals than most characters.
Honda can win, but I think this match is no better for him than Ryu or Ken. I’d put it at 3-7.