Lets hear our new strategies from the old and new Honda users!
Jab headbutt is too good. So is trip-guard MK. Especially when facing zone happy shotos. I heard more than once a “WTF” when I did it.
I thought I was going to hate losing the ability to not store super, but the bug-fix super (connects without reprisal of a reversal all the time whether blocked or not) makes up for it. If someone throws a fireball at you and you launch your super, it is almost guaranteed 25-30% into knockdown. More if you are in close and guess right before they throw.
Loss of “Ochio Loop” kinda sucks, but I sucked at doing that anyway. At least it is still storeable.
I’m already feeling the effect of the lessened priority of HHS. Definitely going to hurt in 'Gief, 'Sim, and Chun matches.
All and all Honda is more formidable than ever to his old foes (shotos/Guile) and a little weaker but still stronger than his old punching bags. If people thought Honda was cheap on HF, there are going to be massive RAGE QUITS when more of us start showing our Sumo Prowess :tup:
Hey I’m making Honda my main for HD Remix… I don’t have much experience with him in ST, but I use him a lot in SFIV, CvS2, and A3.
I know the basics and about the changes, but could you briefly explain the Ochio Loop, stored super, and other “tricks” from ST? I know that it sounds like a lot, but anything would be helpful.
After my first session, for some reason I felt like I was getting lucky every time I beat fireball characters… Then I realized that it was his damage. I can do the same amount of damage as the other character, but in fewer hits/trades.
Oh, and Jab headbutt is definitely beastly! I thought it would have a shitty invincibility range, but it’s actually pretty decent.
My main weakness is still trying to land the Ochio throw but being slightly out of range. I hate when strong comes out, lol.
Honestly, my impression right now is that Honda will end up top tier at least. That’s how good the buffs are. I do think Honda beats Ryu now for sure.
I can see one bad matchup right now so it isn’t too bad- I think Blanka beats Honda now. He can now use his Blankaball some against Honda, and the rest of the matchup wasn’t bad for him, so at least that one is slightly in his favor.
Can someone link all the changes to honda for remix? i been looking for it on unity and i can’t seem to find it. thanks in advance
I found this after a quick search. It says final, but who knows since it was posted in October.
From what I can tell it is little more even but Honda still wins. Blanka has more tricky shit now which can screw you up, but on really good Blankas will be able to sell it.
Thanks vpt…I pretty much know what the changes were, i just wanted to read through it again. I’ll be on later playing with honda all night, i’ll post up my ideas as opposed to ST play.
Sirlin’s final-final changelist and rundown for each character are here:
Nice work with the links, I think it’s good to have those on the first page of the thread.
Like many others have said, Jab headbutt, end of story. It totally makes his game much more enjoyable and instills way more confidence in myself when fighting fireball spammers. Hell, his jab headbutt has priority over most moves I’ve done it against.
Is it just me or is it easier to store his Oichio throw? Capcom also didn’t tone down his knock down, deep cross-up down + mk into a tick Oichio / standing jab tick Oichio.
His deep lk into a tick Oichio works fine, too.
It seems all command grabs are easier. I was throwing out tons of Storm Hammers and SPDs when I normally have like a 60% success rate with them in regular ST.
I think you guys are overestimating the jab headbutt. It only works so well now because people aren’t looking for it yet and there are a lot of scrubby shotos online now. I played a couple of good Ryu players that WERE looking for it (and baiting it) and you will very easily get punished if you just throw it out there. Plus it is even worse against good Guiles, he can easily walk up and punish the recovery. The jumping short against trips is very nice, though.
I think he will end up about the same place, mid to upper mid. The nerfs really were big nerfs. I REALLY miss the Ochio throw loop in the corner, it was safe (negative edge) and very abusable. The HHS nerf does hurt him in a lot of matches, I’m not looking forward to matches against good 'Rogs and Vegas now.
I also agree, the Blanka match-up is a lot tougher now. Not being able to punish blocked balls helps blanka a lot. Plus I found out that you can’t use HHS against Electricity now, it trades from all ranges, knocking Honda down so Blanka can play wake up games.
I tend to use the jab headbutt only when I know I can hit them through their fireball. I’ll usually MP sumo splash otherwise.
My main in ST was Honda, he does seem a bit better now. I have to play a lot more and see what the other characters have for them too, game is really fun.
Even if the jab headbutt starts getting baited, it will still be really useful getting in from across the screen safely if used right. At that point you will probably be close enough to start using other option like buttstomp etc… Haven’t had the option to try a lot out, especially the tripguard jump pins.
dbostick had a good run on us in the room last night with Honda, think he had like 10-12 straight, was beasting. I had to Honda mirror to beat him and it was only by a hair. His Honda is tough.
Edit: it was fun last night jab headbutting at round start and hitting tons of people that opened up with fireballs. That won’t last long.
Whatever to the ochio loop. It was never really a loop, you could always be thrown out of it and your opponent could usually knock you out of the first tick; I never really got when everyone complained about it so much. Negative edge ochio is strong, but, well, it’s still there if you need it. Now when I have the opponent cornered I usually go back to his good ol’ fierce grab, which I used a lot in ST anyway both with N and O Honda. You get great damage out of it and you get to follow it up with the good ol’ walk-into-the-corner-crouching-roundhouse mixup, where if you walk all the way into the corner it becomes a crossup and if you walk just some of the way it’s not. So, that’s fine, whatever. When I get a chance to punish midscreen I always go for fierce or roundhouse throw. Some characters can be crossed up after a fierce grab (hold jumping toward + forward or roundhouse against Guile etc) and others can be safe jumped at after a roundhouse grab (like shotos and Boxer), and you can mash it out for great damage anyway.
The nerf I was worried about was the nerf to the hitbox of the handslap, and honestly so far I haven’t even noticed it. I’m still potentially worried about matchups like Guile and Boxer, but I played some real good players today and the nerfed hitbox just never came up. Unfortunately this nerf has just as much chance of hurting Honda in those matchups, the hard and evenish ones, as it does in the good ones.
Jab headbutt is fine, but I’m definitely with Mad Possum in thinking that it’s not awesome. The only place it’s awesome in my opinion is when you’re already up close. Like if you’re in footsy distance with Guile, jab headbutt is now a footsy for you in that you can throw it out to beat sonic booms instead of relying on toward+roundhouse, preemptive slaps, and jumping. The dumb thing about jab headbutt for getting in in the first place is that it doesn’t go through fireballs/booms, it nullifies them, meaning your opponent gets to throw another one immediately. So even if they don’t predict it, they can punish it in any number of ways, from walk up sweeping to walk up throwing to just doing another fireball.
The most important buffs for me so far are the extra maneuverability of neutral jumping fierce and the sick jumping short hitbox.
Excactly with David on the HHS nerf, it is really gonna hurt him in those matches that were already about even, namely 'Rog and Vega (I already hated those matches, tedious). I think Vega can now easily out poke and out turtle Honda now, we’ll see. I’ve already seen Blanka hit Honda out of the HHS pretty easy, and like I said it now trades with electricity and all ranges. Don’t know how it will effect Honda favored matches like against Cammy and Fei, haven’t played a good one online yet, LOL.
I like Honda better in HD Remix than ST. Sure, jab headbutt can be baited (anything can be baited), but I don’t feel so helpless against fireballs anymore. I also like that that fierce HHS is a little easier to pull off. Trying to pull off fierce HHS in the arcade would wreck my wrist after a while.
Overall, Honda is going into HD Remix smelling like a rose. He’s still no Balrog, but he feels a lot more powerful than Blanka to me.
Yeah, I like his changes overall. I never really used the Ochio loop, like David said it’s to easily beaten. I actually used to use the c.rh mixup as well instead, or some buttstomp shenanigans. HHS is a lot more reliable now, I like this change, I never used to use it, now I need to start getting in the habit. The new Ochio bounce is taking me a while to get used to, due to just being in the habit of the old landing zone.
Don’t sleep on Blanka, he seems really good in this. His horizontal ball got upgraded big time.