Tripguard jumping LK is actually really useful against the shotos as soon as you realize that you cannot use it while jumping from fullscreen, because it won’t work then. You have to take a step forward before jumping, then the tripguard LK will hit deep enough that it’ll beat their sweep.
I don’t know if the Honda players I play aren’t using the j.Short properly or whatnot, but I also notice that at the maximum range of Ryu and Ken’s sweep, it doesn’t tripguard. Anything less than maximum range and j.Short will stuff the sweep. But at that range, the Ryu or Ken player will just Shoryuken, j.Kick, walkup throw, etc.
I have a harder time dealing with Hondas that neutral j.Fierce over Hadokens. Can’t trip them as they land too soon and/or are out of range, walkup throw is too far and so is Shoryuken, except maybe not for Ken. In that case tho, will just restart the Hadokens. A good Honda will keep his charge and Sumo Splash the next Hadoken, as the previous Hadoken is still on screen. But in that case, Shoryuken the Splash. What can I say? There’s always a counter. LOL = )
And constantly Sumo Splashing against Chun Li is NOT a good idea. J.Short, wall jump, Head Stomp, SBK just to name a few counters.
Pretty much every good zoner I play knows this and adjusts accordingly. The only time I can really get it to work is when they make a mistake and get too close when they try to sweep.
Here are some long sets of me using Honda in a recent HD Remix tourney, the pre-Devastation held at Denjin Arcade. I played [media=youtube]8IIYjBgi3oY"]Sin@Guile, then got destroyed by SweetJohnnyV @Dhalsim in winner’s finals, barely lucked out a win against Shoo @Boxer on the seat of my pants in loser’s finals, and came back to beat SweetJV in the [URL=“http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=ultradavid+sweet+johnny+v+grand&aq=f”[/media]. I only started playing remix again recently and I used O Honda more in ST, so sorry if it looks like I’m figuring things out as we were playing… since, I was.
Okay kids, riddle me this…
How do I deal with a patient Boxer who knows his stuff?
Seems like I end up on opposite sides of the screen from him, everytime he goes on the offensive his options seem much safer. Headbutt pressure doesn’t really work as it gets beat by jabs or crouch strongs, or even a headbutt. Everything else seems to get sorted out by low rushes.
I realise crouch short/rh beat out dashes, but I dont like my odds when he turtles it up and has a 7/8/final waiting for me.
Any basics I’m missing? Or top secret tips you’d care to divulge with club sumo? I tend to do okay in this match if I can get in and start some throw shenanagins, but besides that I’m at a loss.
Cheers,
You get close and stay there. Pressure with HHS and constant sumo smashes. I find jump-in LK into Ochio (has to be done late so he can’t throw you) works hella good. If he decides to jump at you, headbutt or super his ass (depends on your reversal skill, but I typically hit jump happy rogs 95% of the time). Try not to fall for Rogs jumping straight up or back with HP/HK trying to bait a headbutt.
Basically, the longer the fight goes on the more it works into Rog’s favor due to turn punch, so finish the fight early!
No offense sunshine, but how are you getting close?
Any Balrog player worth his salt will headbutt any buttsplash on reaction. And any jump short into ochio leaves him at advantage for the counter throw (which he will do for sure)
Rog’s crouch strong beats slaps due to the crazy hitbox, and rapid jabs take care of it from close range.
And typically, decent rogs won’t jump at you when you have meter and they know full well you can tag them.
Thanks anyhow,
I typically don’t have a problem getting close, but I usually let them try to come to me. I just stick out crouching jabs, have them low rush right into them, and knock them down with a headbutt or sumo splash. Then its usually a one way ticket to ochio/sumo splash crossup town. Unless they are fuckin god tier, I see Rog as one of Honda’s easier matchups.
Rogs doing nothing but repeating crouching MPs usually get hit or trade with a headbutt or medium slaps for me.
If you time it as late as possible, it works beautifully. Jumping LK is fairly easy to mistime though, so it takes quite a bit of practice. It also hits a standing blocking Rog which the MK splash will miss completely.
They should definitely head this advice, but when they are low on vitality they go for it. I can’t tell you how many times someone’s Rog tried to jump-in meaty my Honda when I had super. Like 90% super reversal :looney:
Sarcasm noted. If you don’t think I’m qualified to give out advice then that’s your prerogative. I’ve played quite a few peepz around here though who can vouch for me.
You can also combo into a jab or two before throwing which will reduce his chances of counter throwing. (Or into a cr.LK -> FP HHS -> FP Ochio. :wgrin:) Also, against boxer a jumping RH is a safe jump after a hug or knee grab. If you follow that up with one or two standing jabs, or a jab and a crouching kick you can usually keep the throw loop going.
You gotta mix things up. Buttslam at Boxer when he doesn’t have a down charge. Move forward in bursts, learn to counter his rush punches with jabs, or bait him into coming to you and headbutt. Once you score a knockdown you should be able to deal a fairly significant amount of damage.
If the Balrog wants to stay away and spam jab, make him come to you, and while your at it, make him hit your crouching jab. If he comes in with a standing rush punch Ochio him, because you have that stored all the time right? :wgrin:
Yes, but your standing roundhouse sweep will shut that shit down.
But they do other shit that super will hit. You will learn things that you can get away with. Like if he does a rush string that ends in standing FP you can most likely headbutt, buttslam, or super it.
Dude, screw the TAP. If you learn to Ochio that, he’s fucked. It’s a bit hard to learn the timing but once you have that down any TAP >= 2 from less than full screen has an Ochio waiting on it. Get some time with this in practice mode with a friend.
QFMFT, you should listen to this man.
The battle is certainly not easy, but it’s not as hopeless as you make out. Good luck!
Versus Boxer is one of the more mysterious matchups to me, so I can’t give you much of an overall flow thing, but there are a few tidbits I’ve found useful.
You probably already know about this, but the :d::hk: sweep is really useful at midrange (opening round distance) since it stuffs his rushes and is safe against his headbutt. Especially useful when he needs to go on offense.
Against him, from max distance, jumping :hp: is actually often better than a buttslam, since it’s faster and can’t be stand jabbed out like the buttslam can. As soon as he stands and loses his down charge for whatever reason this is a good idea to do, and since his headbutt is so slow to come out, it’s often relatively safe even if he’s charged.
This also applies to all non-fireballers, but if he turtles it up at fullscreen, take the time to :lp: HHS a few times and build up your meter for free. If he’s going to be charging his TAP for free, might as well charge your own big move for free. Well, not entirely for free - he can knock you out with a short low rush punch, so if you suspect he knows about that, vary your HHS timing a bit to potentially make him whiff his low rush. Then you can blow your super at some point and rebuild your meter in the same way later.
Warning, your super can and will be punished on block! Use as a non-anti-air at your own risk. I use anticipation super mostly when I’m at a severe disadvantage and need to gamble it all. High risk, high reward - don’t use it when you have the life advantage.
If he mashes low jabs all day and has life advantage, you’ll need to go to midrange and risk either a :l::hk: far sweep or a jump in at some point (getting to midrange from fullscreen with the HHS is relatively safe, starting your action from midrange will be much harder to react to). If he doesn’t mash low jabs then :hp: HHS is pretty useful.
That said… I still don’t have the keys to this matchup myself, so take all of this with a grain of salt.
Good info. I find that if I face Rogs that like to turtle, doing LP HHS continually from across the screen to build meter will get them angry and impatient. I usually mix up crouching LP with LP HHS so if they do try to rush in it is almost always hit out.
Also, if Rog has super DO NOT use your super against him unless it will kill him via chip or as an anti-air. 100% guaranteed reversal super against blocked Honda super for Rog. I do it all the time because apparently a lot of Honda players don’t know this.
Apologies mate, I really didn’t mean to sound condescending or anything, In fact I genuinly appreciate the fact you took time to reply.
It’s not that I find this matchup hopeless, in fact I don’t think it’s bad at all. What I have trouble with is when end up at fullscreen with a health disadvantage.
What amplifies this problem is the lack of good balrogs I’ve discovered on live. I think I have 2 decent players on my list, and have only encountered 1 other who gives me trouble. So it’s really hard to practice these individual scenarios that come about in the matchup.
You mention you play Boxer yourself Studtrooper, If you’re up for it I’m really after any boxer practice I can get!
We could do that, but I’m afraid we’d have a pretty bad ping. West Coast US to Scotland would probably be around 250+ms.
ok so ive been playing Honda for like a month now and am slighty above average, after trying everyone out for the last 5 months or so. I decided the fat man is the most fun for me. But im having issues in some matches.
I got most of them down, some arent easy but at least I understand what I have to offer to try and win . Examples ( Shotos and Sagat )…
But the ones that are giving me trouble which usually give Honda trouble are:
Guile - If I can get a light headbutt in I can usually just HHS him down / Oicho his ass. But still he just turtles for the win. I try and get close enough to chip at him and block but still isnt enough.
Dee Jay - Im lost here, it seems like he is the Honda defense. the good ones do the same thing. They keep throwing projects then crounch jab to prevent a light headbutt and a over head attack leads to kicks to the face. So needless to say I lose this everytime they do that. I dont want to resort to a Counter pick in this game.
Ryu - Even though I know how to play the shotos matches and think they are still hard its his FAKE fireball that is just too good. He gets me to jump and well ya you know the rest… Most I still beat but the great ones know what to do better than me.
Chun li - This is a like the Dee Jay one but not has bad, still could use some more professional advice on this one.
Gief - Ok I only am adding this one cuz the Giefs I run into fluctuate in skill. Most I can spam headbutt to beat, others know to jab and kick me out of it , So I then short and spam HHS which beats those, then there are the ones that know Im going to do that , so they come at me so I Oicho or Buttslam, then there are those who know that and well they make it about 50/50. Any other good strategys for the muscle man.
Vega- Givin Hondas size is turtleing or jumping lp better against the masked man. I dont run into many Vegas that are great but when I do they win more than me due to inexperiece in the matchups.
Sorry if any of this sounds noob but Id rather just ask then keep guessing…
Just throwing in my 2 cents on these 2.My honda is very solid, but really really cheesy, and full of shenanigans. Don’t take this as a definitive answer, but there are a few sneaky tricks i use against these 2 that really help.Some of these are quite risky but really fun to pull off.I guess that’s just my style.
Use the MP or HP slaps over the LP, especially against guile for the little forward push you get when they activate.Every inch of space you can gain on him is a godsend.
Practice the timing in training, and be able to throw a fakie move and have the slaps come out straight after it so you can score cheap poke damage when they try to counter (ie, poke with a crouching MK or HK or whatever, and hammer MP while it’s happening so as soon as it’s done you get slaps.
Every time you LP headbutt, watch your spacing, especially against guile, it’s very easy for him to punish if you’re late, you’ve got to be psychic with using the torpedo to kill sonic booms, hit it late and you’re an easy target.I prefer eating some block damage on a couple of sonic booms rather than risking an unsafe jab headbutt.
I like to activate the LP headbutt and then immediately mash MP or HP while it’s happening.It’s not foolproof, but a lot of the time you’ll kill the fireball and give some block damage or trade the hundred hand slaps with their counter attack, and you’ll have made up lots of ground with the torpedo and the push forward from the slaps.Anything is better than just sitting there like a lemon waiting to be thrown or whatever after the jab headbutt.
Practise jab torpedo into mp or hp hands for a split second then another torpedo or super if you have meter.It’s tricky, but if you can get the hang of the mash timing to activate the hands, so they only come out for a second before you go into something else you’ll catch a lot of people with the second headbutt/super while they try to counter the hands.IMO the trickiest part of using HHS effectively is learning when to stop mashing so the move stops when you want.Theres a second or so of a gap between stopping mashing and the hands disappearing and you being free to do something else.If you can master the timing on that you’ll be a lot scarier as a honda player.
If you manage to get in, if you can cross up, use something like his crossup HK, LP, xx LP Slaps combo for 50% easy damage, (there are better tougher ones too, depending on how confident you are) or if you want to take a risk, try something like a MK splash into Ochio and then slaps for chip damage, but watch out for dragon punch reversals etc.
If you do manage to get an ochio, One of my very favourite shenanigans is straightaway while you’re mid throw, mashing HP to activate a HP slaps which pushes him forward, at which point most people after getting up from the ochio, if they get hit, will block the rest of the slaps on reaction, but practise getting the slaps to stop after no more than one hit, and then ochio again straight away while you’re still in range. Most people will be expecting 3 or 4 chips from the HHS after the hit, and will be just sitting there holding low block. If you can get the timing right and only get the slaps to stay out there for a fraction of a second before they stop you’ll hit once, but still be in range for the second ochio for like 70% damage.You can hit them with a slap ONCE, but only once, before the pushback puts you out of range for the ochio, and it doesn’t work when it’s blocked, so you’ve got to know when to stop mashing to take account of the little delay before the move stops coming out.
The best part of this one is you will really piss off any turtling guile players who didn’t see it coming and managed to keep you out for 3/4 of the round 
Hope some of this was new.Enjoy! :tup:
Good advice, unfortunately this only works when that hit from the HHS is not blocked - blockstun pushes your opponent further away than hitstun and you will only be able to ochio right away on hit. But it’s definitely a good trick to try every now and then on the off chance that the opponent misses some reversal and the HHS does hit, because the payoff is so insane.
Vs Guile and Deejay is all about the reaction buttslam from midrange - wait for them to throw a projectile, go through it with :hk: buttslam -> (HHS or walk-up throw), repeat. That’ll break their fireball / antiair mixup, forcing them to use less reliable strats, and you can take it from there.
Vs Vega you can mostly do whatever and win. Turtle when you have life advantage, you can either :lp: headbutt straight walldives or buttslam escape if they’re reverse walldives 100%. If Vega tries to get cute with advancing & poking, just :mk: buttslam him. And every time you knockdown Vega, go for the crossup - his reversal flipkick will be shutdown and you’ll be able to crossup tick-throw him for big damage for free (crossup jumping :hk:, crouching :lp:, ochio).
Vs Zangief, if all he does is low jabs, trip him up with your :l::hk:. Otherwise just :db: turtle it up. If you have life disadvantage, HHS his lariats, HHS to get to midrange, and use the floating punch (controllable vertical jumping :hp:) as a relatively safe way to advance. Only use headbutt and super as anti-air under threat of knockdown -> SPD pain.
Yep, 100% correct, thanks thelo.I was fucking around in training after i posted that and realised my error so i edited my post.Only works on hit, block is no good at all.
++ imaginary rep!!:wgrin:
What do you guys rate the Honda vs. Guile matchup?
From my old matchup analysis post:
At one point UltraDavid said he thought it was “4-6, maybe 4.5-5.5”. Some days when I’m up against solid Guile players I feel it’s more like 3.5-6.5. But basically Guile has a decent advantage.
Thanks everyone who gave me advice…
So Thelo I liked your Matchup list you linked to the other guy, what matchups have you changed as far as what you think now? Like Ryu I agree is still numero uno along with Dee Jay/Ken. Akuma I honestly dont even attempt to play against cuz he is banned in any serious tournaments.