Craig, why are you even responding. =)
Other guy… it’s called recovery. Constructive criticism: learn more about SF before giving advice. Unless you mean “figuratively” cause many Kens do spam multiple jab dps in a row as a “tactic.”
You basically just agreed with me but in a different explination. I told you it’s NOT invincible, then explained why (and with valid reason, remember in this game timing is everything). Ken’s (and Ryu’s for that matter) have traditionally always been able to wake up or avoid fireballs. Ken’s jab DP avoiding fireballs has nothing to do with Honda… but I like how you threw that out there anyway. Are you sure you’re not trying to argue just for the sake of arguing?
You’re 18… and you’re right age is just a number, but in this case it honestly shows. That is all I’m saying.
By your definition then, nothing is invincible in this game. Not even kens mp dp. Feis super. Bisons super. Rogs super. Any DP type move. None of those are invincible because they have recovery frames? Granted some less than others (bison / rog might not have ANY actually).
Kens DP IS invincible on the way up. Prove me wrong. Go get a friend. go into training. knock down ken, and try and throw a meaty fireball as hes waking up. do reversal jab dp and watch ken go through it. is that not invincible?
my age has jack shit to do with the fact that i know what im talking about. if i told you i was 26 or whatever would you all of a sudden start listening? no
My goodness dude… I rarely post out of frustration but LOL … I never said his DP was not invincible going up… I even explained in detail Honda’s fierce headbutt hits Ken on the way down after a jab DP.
I now just see you like to argue a bit. You can’t just say “I see your point” and move on. I’m not here to argue… just debate. You want to put me on “block” … oh Jesus Christ no! Don’t do that!
:rolleyes:
The more and more post I read from you, the more “scrubish” YOU actually come across. There’s a TON of knowledge I’ve read on here… and honestly I can’t recall anything you’ve posted that made me think to myself “yeah, never thought of it or seen it in that perspective before” …
Just do us both a favor and flex your weak little e-muscles elsewhere.
PS - why are you still talking about Ken and fireballs? I’ve already told you Ken’s jab DP goes through them… I never said they didn’t. I’m talking about Honda VS Ken here. All this talk about wake-ups… Jesus Christ kid YOU need to wake up, literally.
Ok. So, we have one guy who posts something technically incorrect, and one of the more well known Mass players says he’s wrong.
Josh, I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt, but if you knew anything you’d know that Gridman here is a great CVS2 player, one of the best T Hawk’s I have ever faced and a good kid.
You guys are both acting out, but for what its worth, Craig is right and you, you need to lurk more bud.
no see the problem is you said its not invincible. im telling you it is. what are you confused about. no one is arguing you cant hit shit on the way down. however, you said his dp isnt invincible when obviously it is. i tried to give you a situation where you could replicate and see that his dp was invincible. but you refuse to see that. what you’re talking about is recovery.
if you want to see my knowledge or a different perspective, go read the hawk thread. ive contributed more than enough to that thread. im not trying to say i play every character. the one character i main and know more about than any other character is hawk. i have 3 back ups, gief fei and sim. i know scattered knowledge about those 3 but can play them solidly. i DO however, know a fuck ton of shit about matchups and what works and what doesnt.
why you keep going on about e-muscles is beyond me. im trying to stop others from getting mis-info or bad information from someone.
edit: thanks shiel. i think i blow at cvs now but that game kinda sucks anyways. ST is where its at and where im going to stay. maybe dabble in SF4 a bit but thats another game thats kind of iffy.
Oh and Ultradavid, the REAL honda killer from Deejay is Slide kick anti air. (Which DeeJay lost thank god!)
Maxx Out is just the lead in. =) And T Hawk match is still a murder imho. He cant tick Honda storing Oicho, he has to take all the risks. 7-3 at BEST. A good Honda wont let Hawk land his “improved DP” ^___^
You just said it’s not invincible all the time… now you’re saying it is again? Like I said, you just want to argue. Ken’s jab DP is about the closest thing to invincible in this game, but it’s not technically invincible. Nothing in this game is, otherwise that’s all a single character would do and win 100% of the time. You yourself even admitted to that in a few posts back.
I usually give the poster the benefit of fully reading their post through-n-through, but honestly I just stop and quoted what I wanted to quote from you then respond just now.
I’m sorry, I just can’t read anymore of your posts. I’m not trying to be an A-hole, but you are the one who’s ironically being put on block mode… LOL and Jesus mang I’ve never had to put a poster on that type of function before of all the message boards I’ve posted at throughout the years. Well done Jr!
:tup:
OK, thanks! Skill wise I never said he wasn’t good. I’d love to play his Hawk sometime… but forum wise he just can’t say “good point” he just wants to argue. I’m sorry, but that’s a devalue to me… I’d rather just not read his posts no matter who the hell the is… I’d put Sirlin on ignore if he acted like a “good kid” who did nothing but post like an 18 year old on PMS.
I guess you’re missing the point. You missed the entire part that what you’re talking about is RECOVERY.
You know what else is funny about this? Josh actually thinks that all a Ken player can do or is going to do once Honda gets within jumping range is spam jab DP. C’mon now. Is your Ken that one-dimensional? That could explain your low opinion of Ken and why you’d get a wake-up call when you played someone on this thread. All I’ll say about Ken’s options in this situation is that he has one more move that can be easily done that leaves him extremely safe upon recovery that can shut down most of Honda’s quicker options and set up Ken DP’ing something from Honda on reaction. This option is pretty much World Warrior 101…much like the “OG Fake Fireball”. I’m pretty sure most of you know what it is by now: standing jab.
Yes, good ol’ standing jab spammed repeatedly should, more times than not, stop any Headbutt that Honda can muster. Wouldn’t the tweaks Sirlin made to the HHS make standing jab hit that, too? Of course, since you have to press a button three times to make that come out, even the jab version will be telegraphed. Block and reversal fierce Hadouken takes care of the jab HHS. Strong and fierce HHS would probably have to be DPed. Anyway, with the standing jab shield out, Honda’s only hopes become standing fierce and standing roundhouse, both of which can be blocked on reaction…if not DP’ed. If Honda tries to come closer for crouching/standing strong or crouching roundhouse, that’s too close for Honda to do anything about a Hadouken but block it and get pushed out of attacking range.
The whole point of looking at a matchup is looking at the big picture of who has an easier time setting up their strategies and mix-ups. Who is taking less risk and reaping more reward, given the options that each character has? In this situation, Ken can take less risk and still reap the reward of controlling the match.
Did I miss something? Thelo? UltraDavid?
When did I say all Ken players spam jab DP when close? Come on Fresh, I like reading your posts even if they’re critical of my points of view but don’t attempt to illustrate to the board that I said something that in reality I did not say. Never did I say that’s all Ken does… I simply posted my strategy playing against Ken in those situations. I have yet to play a Ken on HDr that will ring my bell enough for me to take a step back and say Ken > Honda in HDr and there’s no debate. You guys simply tell me this is common knowledge, and I don’t agree. It doesn’t make me an idiot or troll for thinking as such. Why do you guys seems to get so upset about it LOL.
My Honda does well against Ken. I find the match-up very fun and it’s certainly one of my personal favorites. The Honda VS Ryu is the one that kills me playing a spacing / zoning master.
Now that I’ve posted here for a good week, I can see there’s a great group of contributors here with massive knowledge and that’s great! It’s good to throw ideas and points of views around and share them. I hope to keep many of these debates going and updates / alter points of views as needed as we move along and get more experience playing the game. I have no beef with you guys… I just want to share opinions and gain knowledge in an adult manner but for some unknown reason some of you guys just seem incapable of doing so.
Josh, just be careful how you manage your semantics. Your whole point was that Ken’s jab DP is “not unpunishable,” but you used the term “not invincible” instead (which is incorrect, it is punishable but also invincible on the way up). SF has a lot of terminology and if you are trying to argue your point it would do you a lot of good to pay attention to how you manage your semantics, not only because the community tends to discredit those who don’t know the “proper” terminology for in-game phenomenon, but also because it makes tracking what the hell you’re trying to say a lot easier.
Read my post again. When did I say that you said “all Ken players spam jab DP when close?” I didn’t. I’ll re-phrase what I said. You can’t see that Ken has more than one relatively safe option when he is inside Honda’s jumping range that forces Honda into a very risky place. It’s obvious that you don’t see this.
The other thing that I’m seeing that’s a little disturbing is that you keep misunderstanding our points. That doesn’t make for healthy debate, either.
By the way, I noticed you had no answer for Ken’s standing jab. Are you conceeding that point?
OK, this is a very good post. I greatly appreciate it. I don’t see how it’s so challenging for some posters to simply post something as simple as such VS the “THIS GUY MUST BE A GAWDDAMN MORON! TROLL!”
:lol:
People just take message boards wayyyy too seriously. Thanks for your tip there mechajesus. I never meant to use you rname in vain from my previous posts LOL.
Honestly, how often do you see Ken players using standing jab to counter Honda’s headbutt? We’re not talking about 'Gief or 'Hawk where jabs are a must to effectively keep the torpedo in check. Ken would be much better off throwing fireballs and attempting the sweep game instead b/c once Honda gets close enough to standing fierce kick you on the ground that jab isn’t going to do jack ish for you.
Asking other Honda players out there… do you guys find Ken in reality is more difficult to handle than Ryu?
Yet another thing you can’t do is summarily dismiss a point without explanation.
The fact of the matter is that spamming jab has been a basic tactic for stopping rushing moves since World Warrior…hence my mention that it’s a World Warrior 101 tactic. It…works. At that range, it’s safer than Ken relying on throwing a Hadouken that has a whopping 14 frames of startup…and it’s actually safer than throwing a psychic jab DP because while I’m spamming the jab, I can either kara cancel that into either a jab DP or a Hadouken or…I can bait you with the OG Fake Fireball. Mind you, after the psychic jab DP and standing jab, the Hadouken would be the move I’m eventually trying to slip in, but it’s not going to be my first option since Honda can see it coming and possibly punish me for it.
And, like I said in my last post…you did read that, right? Let me quote it again for you.
Now…read that again and then restate it for me. Making me repeat myself is really bad for your credability.
Read back a page or so. Thelo, who is one of the better Hondas out there, already answered this for you. UltraDavid, another great Honda player, was the first person you disagreed with. James Chen, a master of matchups in general, already answered this as well. You’re not going to get a different answer.
I told you lurking has its benefits. You chose not to listen and now your reaping the consequences of your mistake.
This is where the danger lies, Josh. You’re correct: you have every right to disagree, but the problem is that the majority of the people here have been giving you fairly good arguments of WHY Ken is better than Ryu against Honda in HD Remix and you continue to argue back. And you are basing your arguments on your own personal experience.
You could say the same thing for us: that we are basing our opinions on our experience. But frankly speaking, when people who MAIN HONDA like Thelo and UltraDavid come in and give their opinion, their experiences are worth more. This has nothing to do with you. This is not me calling you a newb or anything. This is just common knowledge. You have two great resources in Thelo and UltraDavid. I don’t know about Thelo (but I’ve seen him play in match videos and I know he’s damn good at Honda), but I know UltraDavid has played in plenty of tournaments and resides here in Southern California, where you will NOT get a lack of competition and variety. If there is a skill to be learned or knowledge to be had, you can bet that Southern California has it. So Thelo and UltraDavid are sharing their opinion and, while they are still opinions, their words carry a ton of more weight.
The reason so many people are jumping down your throat, Josh, is because you’re continually debating with everyone on Honda’s virtues against Ken (and as Mechajesus pointed out, your points get muddled when improper terminology is used). You’ve already admitted you might not have played the best Kens, and that’s all you need to say at this point. “In my experience, I have a fine time fighting Kens… even look forward to the match. But maybe the Kens I play aren’t good. Anyone here who plays Ken well willing to challenge me?” and that’s it. But you continue to argue based on your own experience.
And this is the honest truth: the first important lesson that most fighting game players learn to cross that bridge into becoming an expert is that their own experiences usually amount to a hill of beans. That’s the main advice I’m going to give you, Josh. Feel free to believe in what you believe in, but realize that if you continue to argue it when so many other people disagree, you ARE going to come off as uneducated and the less patient members of the internet (you can’t avoid them) will get on your case.
- James
Reaping the consequences of my mistakes? I’m just sharing my opinions. I don’t approach the forums like it’s a test and I’m sweating bullets as I post. This is a public forum where information is being traded and topics are being discussed. I’m gathering information from reading and then also participating with my own personal take on how I view things as well. It differs from your point of view, OK, that’s something that should be warranted b/c it provides different perspectives / views on things. Why do you guys take this ish so seriously on these forums?
I just want to better my game by gathering information on these forums and part of that process is by asking questions or adding my $0.02 to get the adequate feedback I need. I’m not here to argue (debate, not argue, there’s a difference). Thanks in advance.
That’s some good insight / feedback, and it is appreciated. I think you guys just have the wrong idea about me. I never came in here and said “hey look at me! I’m the one and only Street Fighter God and you will take heed to what I say and you will pay homage to the great Legend of Josh” … LOL … it’s not like that guys… I never gave any of you that type of impression.
If people want to get upset b/c I think community opinions = opinions and not set-in-stone facts then I’m sorry, that’ll never change. I’m not trying to argue with any of you. I just want to discuss things I’ve experienced in the game and share what I know with what you guys know so I can better my game.
I never claimed to be better than any of you… in any way … form or fashion. I just want to add my $0.02 here and there. I’m sorry if you consider it trash, but think of it in this regard - it does challenge things and changes the status quo - and if you’re looking to go above and beyond in terms of how great you can actually be at this game, you need to think outside the box… welcome the new opinions and debates VS just labeling them trash from the get-go. That’s all I’m saying.