If only I had access to youtube while at work LOL, I’ll be sure to check this out back at the hotel.
Thanks
Initially, I also foreseen Honda’s game improving against Ryu in HDr, but once I came across the more crafty zoning players I soon came to the realization Honda is still Ryu’s lunch when it comes to space control. Ryu’s sweep trap is still very effective if you’d had enough experience playing Honda. Below I noticed you mentioned Ken’s fireball game is more effective against Honda, but I disagree. Ryu can mix up not only faster fireballs but obviously larger fireballs for Honda to fall victim to. Maybe it’s just me, but I see the 3.5 - 6.5 ratio a bit generous. I’d be more inclined to say top Ryu against top Honda is nothing favorable for Honda at all unless you’re lucky enough to get close enough to use your standing fierce kick to put him on the ground. With my experience I’ve had a more difficult time playing DeeJay’s than Ryu, but Ryu + DeeJay = fits for my Honda and no other projectile character does that to me.
Honda’s jab headbutt into fireball is an improvement, but doesn’t do much b/c as soon as it’s cancelled here comes another fierce / strong fireball in his direction. Also, Ryu’s fake fireball is bad news for Honda trying to advance once he gets just past the mid-range area. Bottom-line if the Ryu player is not an experienced zoner… Honda can easily be a tough match-up for Ryu, but a great zoner who can mix up hurricane kicks well is going to be a nightmare for the fat man.
This I can’t agree with. To me, reverse the ratio and now you’re talking! I see this being in Honda’s favor 7-3. Again, I want to point out this is based off my experience. I do quite well against Kens with my Honda. Ken’s fireball game just isn’t nearly as effective as Ryu’s. Also, unlike Ryu’s super Ken’s is much more easy to defend against b/c playing against Ken - Honda should be very patient and simply punish him when the timing is right. All it takes is a good few knock downs to do some solid chip-damage. Safe jump-ins after knock downs can add up to some major chip damage, especially if you’re close to the corner. A turtling Honda is more effective against Ken.
Again, I don’t see Ken’s fireball game being that much of a hinder unless Honda is trying to jump-in attack. You simply wait until you’re close enough to knock Ken down and then make your opponent illogically react with DPs and you simply headbutt him when the strong or fierce comes out… I’ve end had great success against the jab DP… I’ve been playing Honda for awhile in HF and ST and this just works well for me. The only thing about Ken that really bothers me is his walk up grapple move when I’m turtling.
It’s probably just me, but this is my toughest match-up with Honda. DJ’s fireball / sweep game kills me. I’m somewhat successful with the jumping short kick but the timing / spacing must be impeccable otherwise DJ is simply going to have throw priority over you. Standing fierce kick is effective but most DJ’s just begin to turtle when you get close to block it. What hurts DJ is he has no wake-up unless you’re just foolish enough to jump in deep enough to where his wake-up kick will get you. It’s easy for DJ to build his super too, and it’s a wake-up you almost can’t avoid even with safe jumps. When I seem to get close enough at times DJ can cross me up and land a devastating combo. Just an aggravating match-up for me. I need much more practice with this one.
I agree with much of what you said on this match-up. I feel Guile is a notch or two above Honda, but I feel my Honda in particular is decent against good Guiles. It’s so much easier to get close to Guile VS DeeJay or Ryu. Also like you said, his FK is not very effective if you’re patient enough. Even Guile’s that rarely use the FK to attempt and surprise you don’t hit my Honda unless I’m in close and doing a cross-up sumosplash. The sumosplash is a risky move b/c Guile’s short FK is very effective against it or Guile can also attempt a throw if he sees it coming and reacts fast enough. Honda’s jump into short kick is more easier to pull off against Guile than it is DJ or Ryu’s sweeps. I’ve found it also much easier to ocho slam or simply grab Guile VS those other two as well.
Finally someone else agrees with me! Most comments I’ve seen tell the tale that Chun is still a bad match-up for Honda. I feel Chun has a slight advantage in this match-up (like your typical Guile VS Honda match-up) but Honda can surely hold his own. The trap for Honda against Chun is falling victim to the air priority game. Honda’s wake-up jab headbutt = Chun killer. If Chun wants to keep her distance her fireball game isn’t as superior as other projectile characters. Chun’s super is good against Honda if Honda is trying to HHS too often. Also like headbutt, buttsplash is also an effective special against Chun whereas it’s almost worthless against some other characters. I love spamming the strong buttsplash and at times it can be very difficult to counter if pushed into the corner.
I’ve always felt since the days of HF that Sagat is exploited by a good Honda. Now that Sagat’s fireball game is nerfed, I feel it’s that much more effective. Sagat’s Tiger Knee is quick enough to catch Honda if he’s not careful but thus far I’ve found the move to be not all that effective unless Honda attempts a throw or ocho which is not a good idea b/c of the damage from the jab and strong Tiger Uppercuts. Unless the Sagat is a master at timing the uppercut Honda should have an easy time using fierce headbutt … and if Sagat doesn’t mix up his fireball simply high to block the headbutt you should be able to get close enough for standing fierce kick or simply jump over into fierce kick (which probably does more damage than any other jumping fierce kick in the game).
One of my favorite match-ups in the game. I love playing a fiercely competitive Blanka. This is the one match where Honda has absolutely no choice but to fight Blanka back with nothing but pure offense. I say the 5-5 is right on the money, and easily Honda’s most balanced fight. I will say if your Honda is expert with the HHS and your Blanka opponent isn’t good at defending it, it can easily turn this match-up in Honda’s favor by a long shot. Blanka must stay in the air against Honda and hope his buttsplash doesn’t get priority over his jump-ins.
Thanks for sharing your insight on Honda.
I somewhat disagree with some of your other points, but this one in particular is flatly false. Honda can - and should - down-back it all day, every day against Blanka, because the defensive jab headbutt beats 100% of Blanka’s options. Along with Fei Long, Blanka is probably Honda’s most defense-oriented matchup, and certainly not a “pure offense” one.
Well in respect to your comment I should have been more clear… when I say “pure offense” I mean using Honda’s headbutt and buttsplash game much more often throughout the match than any other match-up which in return requires crouching down back block… this isn’t to me playing defense. What I’m saying is Blanka is going to be coming at you the entire round and unless you release your jab headbutt or strong / firece buttsplash often you’re going to simply die just sitting there hoping to get lucky against an “ape shit” Blanka.
Josh, you are very, very wrong here. You need to play with better Ken players.
Geez Thelo, I would have picked this one as flatly false. 
IDK… I feel very comfortable in this match-up… I’d love to play some Ken players and demonstrate!
:wgrin:
Please don’t view that as trash / elite talk… I’m sure there are Kens out there who would rape my Honda with their eyes closed… I’m talking about someone on or about equal to my skill level.
I figured someone else would do it 
The Ken matchup is actually hard to peg, simply because there are so many newbie-level Ken players out there that it’s hard to know when you have a legitimately good strategy against him. This game is Ken Fighter HD Remix, as that other dude would say.
But yeah, in all seriousness, at equal skill levels, a Ken player has a decisive advantage over a Honda player - UltraDavid pegs him as Honda’s worst matchup and I can’t say I really disagree with him. The jury’s still out on whether Ryu or Ken is worse, but Josh is the very first guy I ever hear say that Honda has an advantage over any one of them.
This is true, I have yet to play skilled HDr Kens against my Honda, but Ken seems to be very similar to the ST version and I know I was effective during those years of game-play.
Do you guys feel Ken’s fireball trap is more effective than Ryu’s? Ryu’s hurricane kick is obviously better than Ken’s (certainly ground and IMO air as well). Ryu’s super is more effective of Honda’s turtling… especially when we’re referring to chip-damage from the super itself when blocked.
You’re right though, Ken is a character of choice for many new players, and maybe it’s just my style of play that makes my Honda less effective against Ryu compared to Ken. Honda can short / strong buttsplah to evade being hit by Ken’s fireballs much more effectively than with Ryu’s. Ken is also much more vulnerable with his missed DPs.
I’ve been told my Honda is a bit abstract compared to other Hondas. I’m not a flashy win kind of guy. It’s all about mind games and perfect timing that make my Honda successful against most match-ups, and to me that’s most notably against Ken. I also use Ken quite a bit myself, so maybe I’m just very familiar with that match-up.
It doesn’t beat his crossups. It will ether wiff or get hit. I usually use a sumo splash to escape from those if I know it will connect.
It 100% beats whatever Blanka will try to use to cross you up in the first place, namely jumping short.
But yeah, if somehow you do get crossed up, buttslam is an okay way to escape, except you need a down charge to do it, and you’re not very likely to have one if you’re being jumped on.
Of course it’s very good if you’re getting up from a knockdown. But in general, when I’m being crossed up, I prefer block -> ochio or block -> jumping jab, depending on my frame disadvantage, because I can actually do those after blocking high.
All of that is moot. Ken is better because his Fireball is slower. All of Honda’s “improvements” in HD Remix work less well against Ken than against Ryu. For example, the Jab Headbutt has to be done early in order to not be punishable. Ken’s Fireball is slower, so Honda has to do the Jab headbutt later than when he needs to do it against Ryu. This means Ken recovers sooner and has an easier time of walking up to punish it.
Plus, the Fierce and Strong uppercut helps him keep Honda a lot more honest. Oftentimes, when I play Ken vs. Honda, I don’t even care to go for a deep DP. I just do the Strong one early to hit him out of the air early, so I don’t have to worry about mistiming my DP and getting punished for it or whatever other random mistake can be made. Strong DP is completely invincible on the way up, so it lends itself to no mistakes and no mind games and no way for Honda to trick you into anything.
And if Ken can get Honda in the corner, that’s where the pain begins. It’s not hard to slowly push him back (a goal of mine when I use Ken). Once he is in the corner, the perfect Fireball Trap distance is ALSO the perfect distance to land a Fierce Uppercut against Honda the instant he Jumps. And if you do that, you can Juggle with another Fierce DP OR a Super in the corner for even more pain. It’s too easy to get Honda into this situation.
The only real fear is the Super from Honda, so you have to be wary of that. But Ryu has the same problem.
- James
I’ve gotten hit clean out of jab headbutt from blanka crossups before. Gief’s (and I would presume Hawk’s) splash does the same thing.
In reference to Ken’s fireball being slower, how does that make up for the fact Ryu’s fireballs are almost twice the size? Jumping / buttsplashing to evade the fireball is much, much easier against Ken’s fireballs VS Ryu’s … I rarely use Honda’s jab heatbutt to cancel out fireballs unless I’m clear across the screen so as not to get punished. Also, Ken’s fireballs being slow means if Honda can cleanly get over one it’s going to take that much longer before Ken can release another.
Please read what James posted again. He summed up exactly why Ken is Honda’s worst nightmare. It’s all about his wide-arcing, highly invincible, and highly jugglable Dragon Punches. At the proper range, a jab Hadouken from Ken leaves Honda with only one relatively safe option: block. Anything else he tries either eats a sweep or a DP…including your precious Sumo Splash, which can also be baited with Ken’s “OG Fake Fireball”. (I know y’all know what that is.)
Once you get knocked down, the traps Ken can set from meaty Jab Hadoukens will keep you out…and push you into the corner…right where he wants you.
Question: When, in this matchup, would you actually be at full-screen range? You start the round in Ken’s DP range and a good Ken will keep you there the entire round. If you manage to hit or knock him down, you better hope you’re so far ahead on life that he can’t chip the win from you.
Edit: Now that I think about it, this is what I’ve been doing to Honda since World Warrior…with the exception of my ToD attempts on people that don’t know that a reversal Headbutt is an anti-air move. Yes…Ken was my first main character. I guess he would still be my main character, even though I tend to play everybody.
Good Hondas can get past the Fireball regardless of its size. And, again, because the Fireball is slower from ken, Jumping over it and Buttsplashing through it isn’t as effective, again, because Ken is already walking up to nail you. And you still can’t even use the Jab Headbutt from a screen away during a typical Ken Fireball lockdown, because he can more easily walk up and sweep you.
The general idea is you can never make it past a Fireball from Ken safely. So if you make it past one, chances are you’re swept, so it doesn’t matter if it takes longer for him to get another one out.
However, and here’s the other kicker, let’s say you DO mange to get past a Fireball. 'Cause you WILL. This is ST, not theory fighter, so Ken will fail and you WILL make it past a Fireball at some point. Now here’s the other reason why Ken is better than Ryu.
The Jab DP is safer.
It’s a lot harder for Honda to punish it (Jab DP whiff into Jab DP still works as a trick in a game that’s 15 years old). Also, if Honda blocks that Jab DP, he can’t punish it like he can Ryu. So it’s actually easier for Ken to knock Honda down again and start the trap over again than Ryu. It’s not significantly easier for Ken over Ryu, but from my own experience, I have a better chance of getting Honda back out with Ken than with Ryu. And it’s just a small enough advantage that makes Ken still better in the fight than Ryu, IMO.
- James
That’s not what I mean. To land a crossup on Honda, Blanka must somehow get close to Honda before jumping. Every option for getting close is mega vulnerable to jab headbutts. Therefore, if Honda is awake, he can beat Blanka by doing nothing but jab headbutts every time Blanka tries to approach.
Ken’s jab DP is not invincible. Within mid-range a perfectly timed fierce headbutt will hit Ken before he comes out with another jab DP. I’ve used Honda long enough to know this move is effective. I have no issue playing Ken’s who abuse (or attempt) the jab DP. Most Ken players are also going to use an occasional strong and fierce DP here and there… I rarely get hit with these and I bait my opponents into thinking I’m going to jump over their 2nd or 3rd fireball at mid-range. Also, I’m very good at waiting for the jab or strong DP and I time my jump-in perfect enough to land on Ken with a fierce kick (which does a good bit of damage). It’s worth the occasional risk b/c it’s going to do much more damage than Ken landing that jab DP.
Again, I’m sure I haven’t played some of the more elite Kens in HDr, but I’d honestly love to play a few. My Honda isn’t your typical Honda, and I’m not saying that b/c I feel mine is better than most, but b/c my game-play is actually a bit different than how most Hondas I’ve seen play.
The issue I have with Ken is being too damn patient and when Ken is close enough and I’ve expecting the jab DP and land a fierce headbutt but Ken just walks up and grapples me. I need to work on my mid to close range against a smart Ken. Kens who try to cross me up end up being punished… and I have yet to really face a Ken good enough at zoning to keep me away. Unlike with Ryu, a superior zoner is going to take Honda’s lunch money all day long unless you’re just lunch enough to get in and punish the hell out of him… but good Ryus know when to unleash a surprising hurricane kick that has priority over almost anything Honda can do close.
I’m somewhat shocked I’m in the minority here thinking Ryu is a worse match-up for Honda than his buddy Ken.
Did you really just say kens jab dp is not invincible?
stopped reading after that. you wonder why no one gives you credit for any of the shit you spew
It’s not invincible and then I explained why. If you chose to cease reading thereafter, that’s on you. Are you telling me there’s not a single window frame of opportunity to overcome Ken’s jab DP? I’ve already stated in another thread Ken’s jab (and fierce DP) are almost god-like in this game, vastly improved from ST and even more-so playing online, but even considering all things as such I’ve played jab DP Kens and as they come down my fierce headbutt hits them more often than they recover for another nano-second jab DP cancelling me. It’s just my timing I suppose. I’ve had a lot of experience doing this, and even though that gap was closed when HDr came out, I’m still highly effective at it.
I’m honestly wondering, how old are you? Serious question.
I’m not looking for credit I just want to talk SF.
/end that argument
It is invincible. Why else can he go through attacks and fireballs? You going to tell me thats priority? christ. why else is it a solid wakeup? No one is saying its invincible the whole time its out. yes you can punish it on the way down. other wise there would be no point in doing any other move with ken. do you consider kens mp dp invincible? if not, i might just put you on block.
honestly age has nothin to do with it. you can see my age in my profile. or if your lazy, im 18. that means shit.
to talk competitive SF you need to establish credit that you’re not some random shit head and actually know what the fuck you’re talking about.