Yes…and it would also help if you didn’t quote what was an awfully good partial synopsis (You didn’t think I’d reveal all of the cards, did you? It’d take too long.) of what Ken can do to shut Honda down if Ken is within Honda’s jumping range only to end up responding to one tiny word of advice that has benefitted countless numbers on this forum.
Read jchensor’s most recent post again. He summed up this whole situation nicely and you would do well to take his advice to heart. Your experience means nothing in the face of all of the tournament experience that’s here. (Yes…I did say that before…not long ago either.)
I’m sorry, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that if you wish to better and advance yourself at something such as Street Fighter that you need to keep things fresh and not always remain “stuck in your ways” because if you continue on the same path you’ll hit a cap very quickly skill wise.
It’s OK to change or challenge the status quo from time to time. You don’t agree, and that’s OK.
Well, yeah, that’s how it should go down, but it doesn’t always work like that. All it takes is one lucky sweep or something and the damn ape is trying to kick my trapezius.
Hahah fresh he still ignored the point about standing jab and responded only to the part that is semi personal. I love this dude. He thinks everyone is out to get him. Only when you continually post stupid shit / shit with no basis will we try and correct you / “jump down your throat”
regardless, i still hate playing against honda. if i ever do face on i usually almost always pick ken or ryu. ken does have an easier time no doubt because of better dp / wider arc on fp dp and slower fireballs. theres really no disputing that.
Again, I said it earlier: you have every right to your opinions. And I never said people attack you because you are challenging the status quo.
I said people are angry because you continue to argue against “our” status quo. And I put that word in quotes because, and excuse me for going all Mei Ling on you, but there is a Chinese proverb that states “You can’t clap with one hand.” The problem is that the criticism you give us applies to you as well. The quote I bold-faced above is a tricky statement, because the main reason you are debating the match up with us is because you yourself are not willing to change your status quo.
Feel free to challenge the accepted knowledge of the majority of the Honda experts on this board. I welcome it, and it IS a huge part of growing as a community. We need MORE people to challenge the standards we’ve set for ourselves. BUT, you have to recognize your position. Again, it’s NOT fair, but the truth is that your words carry less weight than the words of others. Unfortunately, we’ve SEEN Thelo and UltraDavid play. We all know they are good. We know the types of players they play against. We haven’t seen you play. We don’t know what types of competition you’ve faced. It’s harder to take what you say at face value.
It is unfair, but you have to recognize this position and accept the position. I can play all the Tekken in the world, but if I go to the Tekken Boards right now (where nobody knows me at all) and start telling them why I think a known-to-be-bad match-up isn’t actually bad, how can you blame them for tellnig me I’m wrong? BUT, the difference is that if they argued with me, I’d know I’m not in a position to argue strongly against them. Even if I truly believed I was right, I would know my words would not resonate as much as I would like. I know I’m in the position to prove MY point, that the others don’t need to prove their point. So I would try and do just that: prove my point.
So again, the main reason why people get mad at you is that you KEEP debating your points and seem to insist that people take you as seriously as they do the players we know are experts. Opinions are opinions, yes, but there are experts and you will always follow the opinion of experts before somebody you don’t know. I’ve made this analogy before in another thread, but if you are sick with a bizarre illness you have never had before, would you go to a doctor or to your friend’s Chinese grandmother who makes you chew on ginseng root and tells you to stop drinking sodas? Even if the grandmother is right, 99% of the people would go to the doctor. That’s just how it is.
Incidentally, I’m actually pretty new to Street Fighter (started playing about a year ago), and the only tourney I’ve been in was last year’s Evo. I lurked a lot around here, though.
You know…I think this guy should get more rep. Oh wait…his rep meter’s full.
Sorry, James. Next time use your meter before you post this much truth so that I can recommend that you be plus repped and someone actually can…not that it matters Mr. GDLK…but I’m not hatin’. :arazz:
I hope I wasn’t this bad when I first joined alt.games.sf2.
I repped him anyway after I read that post. Even though he his GLDK!
I don’t think that’s possible.
On a side note, I won a local ST tournament Saturday, and I placed 9th at California Regionals with Honda and I owe it all to not having to fight Ken! :woot:
What? You mean you’ve abandoned Sirlin’s teachings? You’re supposed to “try harder”!!!
Anyway, yeah…every option Honda has to escape the Hadouken takes him to the air…and you can’t block in the air…and Ken controls most of the air. Ken…wins.
Naaahhhh…I just say Sirlin didn’t try hard enough. :rolleyes:
Of course I’m joking. I loved watching Thelo dismantle Sirlin since I respect both people as players. I would like to see Sirlin play more bottom tier characters against some of the better players here, though. Just so he can see that folks aren’t complaining groundlessly about them.
LOL at all the drama in this thread. Everyone should calm down a bit. Josh’s terminology was sloppy, but c’mon, when he said he could punish Ken’s DP’s with a torpedo it should’ve been obvious what he was talking about. And Josh, inserting personal inquiries/comments into your explanation probably didn’t help matters. Just sayin. Anyway…
Josh: No, you probably haven’t played enough really good Kens to know why he’s *at least *as hard, if not harder than Ryu. There’s a couple factors that probably contribute to that. For starters, there’s hundreds of Ken’s you’ll run into online, but I can probably count the number of really great Ken players on one hand. Secondly, for some reason, this game runs faster online than it does offline and when coupled with a bit of lag it does mean that it’s measurably harder to react to Honda’s stuff online. When most people talk about who’s better/worse they’re usually referring to how things would go down in a tournament. So, even if you have no desire to go to tournaments keep that in mind.
What that said, here’s why I think Ken’s is so tough:
First up, good players won’t be coming in to combo you and such like most people do online. Good Kens will zone you out, just like Ryu will. The only time they’ll jump in on you is with safe jump block-strings to push you further out.
Against Ryu, one your best tools for closing in is to use neutral jump fierce punch to float over the fireballs, since headbutt and butt-stomp can be punished. The problem is, against Ken this doesn’t work once you start to close in. His MP and HP shoryukens can shut that down fast.
Like J.Chensor said, from further away Ken can throw slower fireballs. This makes it harder to jump straight up over them and it also means he’ll recover quicker before they get to you, allowing him to punish you if you do something dumb.
At max footsie range, Ken’s standing roundhouse is an extra tool he has for very quickly knocking you back a bit. If done right, I don’t think you can punish this even if you block it. I may be wrong about this, but if you jump over a fireball with LK at a distance that you can’t get swept at, I think Ken’s standing roundhouse can still punish you here. Ryu has no such option.
While Ryu’s super is very effective at continuing to keep you out, Ken’s super helps him more if you do finally get in, which is when they really need the help.
If Honda does get in, the better invincibilty on Ken’s DPs help him to deal with that as well.
Ken and Ryu definitely each have their pros and cons in this match, but they’re both tough opponents to be sure. I’ll leave you with [media=youtube]Nh5qIq9jfrc#t=3m00s"[/media]. It’s ST, but most of it still applies.
I missed that part earlier in the flurry of pointless personal attacks, but Ken doing standing jabs at Honda is actually a pretty bad tactic, and I seldom see anyone do that.
If Ken is far away for his fireball to be unpunishable by Honda, fireball is a better option, because it actually deals damage, pushes Honda back, and forces him to react. If Ken is midrange to Honda, his jabs still don’t prevent Honda advancing by just walking, plus they’re extra vulnerable to Honda’s far sweeps (remember, Ken’s fireballs come out slower, so you can’t cancel jabs into fireball as easily to stop a far sweeping Honda). And if Ken is relatively close to Honda, he really should just push Honda back with a fierce fireball (or low kick -> fireball, or jumping back, etc., depending on frame advantage and such).
Without throwing constant fireballs, Ken becomes vulnerable to one of Honda’s most underrated options, walking forward. The final problem with jabs is that they do ridiculously low damage, and they may or may not stop Honda’s slaps, but the jabs-vs-slaps payoff matrix is pretty ugly for Ken. Ken is much, much better off sticking to his good old fireball-sweep-dp routine.
I agree with pretty much everything from SweetJV except this part, because Ryu’s super is amazingly safe on startup - for all intents and purposes, it’s just as startup-safe as Ken’s super. Ryu’s super also deals good block damage, and is safe on block, so with a super bar, Ryu is both stronger at a distance (because it shuts down jab headbutts) and at close range (because Ryu can super through basically anything safely).
If Honda ever gets close enough without a down charge (the buttslam is the one reasonable reaction-based way for Honda to beat the super), Ryu’s super is a no-brainer - he just does it. No slaps, jab headbutts, or sweeps can save Honda there. At worst, he deals good block damage and pushes Honda back. At best, he takes off what, 40% life off Honda? And still pushes him back.
Ryu’s super is so damn effective against Honda that it’s the reason why I think Ryu is tougher than Ken overall for Honda. There is no situation more terrifying for Honda than to see Ryu with a super. Without a super bar, though, Ken just might have the edge, for all the previous reasons.
As usual, you post something that I can actually read, let marinate and take as legitimate constructive criticism. Believe me, it is appreciated. It may be lengthy, but sometimes you have to talk to someone like they’re a child before they comprehend the heart and soul of the message. I guess what I’m saying is, I can follow your message and learn from reading it rather than reading someone comment that says “YOU DON’T KNOW SHIT, FUCK OUTTA HERE TROLL!” … again, I have no beef with any of you, and I do apologize if it seems I’m being stubborn in the match-up / tier debates, and maybe I should work on donig what you said, and seeing it from your perspectives before just assuming you’re trying to shoot me down b/c I’m simply new.
All I really ask in return is for people and members of the community to be mature in how they respond or take things. You’re one of the few who have demonstrated that. FreshOJ is another member who’s been “mature” here and there however you still see the occasional smart ass remarks that just don’t sit well with me.
Nonetheless, I’ve gained a lot of knowledge from just reading / debating with you guys already… thanks for being patient with me.
Back on the Honda topic, James do you mind if I ask you your opinion of Honda’s match-ups between Cammy, Fei Long and Zangief in HDr? How would you rate them in terms of the ratio variances? (ex: Vs Cammy 9-1, etc). Just curious.
Cool, glad it was taken well. It does show a lot about you, as well, that you understand it and can respond to it maturely as well.
God. Those are some match-ups you bring up there. I think in HD Remix, Cammy is still 9-1 against Honda. Maybe exaggerated. 8-2 at best, prolly. It’s not much of a batter fight than before, the Cannon Drills help, but not enough, IMO. But right now, honestly, my Cammy sucks in this game because I still have so many old habits I can’t seem to break, and the nerfing of my Cannon Spike is hurting me, and whenever I use the Cannon Drill, I go nuts with it and start playing stupid. So I can’t use her as optimally as I should.
Against Fei Long, I think it’s 8-2, maybe 7-3. More likely 8-2. I think if Honda gets used to Fei Long, I don’t think there’s much Fei can do. Fei can only win if he gets one really good run and takes advantage of it as much as possible, draining most of Honda’s life in one sequence. But the damage he takes trying to get in and the difficulty of getting in hurts him too much in the end. So I definitely lean towards the 8-2 mark.
And same goes for Gief. It’s true that Gief can win if he gets in, but Hondas need to understand that. Once they do, it’s really hard for Gief to win. The biggest weakness of Honda in this match is simply getting cute. It’s really easy and tempting to be cute when beating up on poor Gief, because you can be a total dick when beating him up. But when you do that against really good Giefs, they will make you suffer. It’s easy to do on good to great Giefs, but expert Giefs will destroy you for it. So when you play an expert Gief, you really gotta hunker down and play super safe. And if you do, that fight is probably 8-2 as well just because Honda’s defense is too good. Also, a lot of Hondas don’t seem to know that his Standing Jab, I think it is, beats like all of Gief’s Jump Attacks from Hand Slap distance, so it’s actually still hard to jump on Honda even if Honda has lost his charge.
