Dejay and Chun I’ll give you…but are shotos really that effective against Honda?
Maybe not, I could see them dropping to like 4-6, 3.5-6.5 range after more extended offline play. But I still think they’re his worst matchups. DeeJay is a lot more manageable now that you can get over his maxouts much more easily; the main reason that matchup was killer before was that jumping over those things was hard with the old jumping fierce, and now that the new one goes farther, getting in is a lot easier. All of these matchups are better than they were in ST, though, no doubt about that.
That new AV is fire man!
HEY wassup fellaz… I havent played SF seriously since 2004… So I broke out the stix for this to get back into action… Can someone direct me to combo list or vids on HONDA… I gotta get back up to speed cause i do not want to get owned to bad in xbl or when i go back to arcade… THANKS…
combos are for ken. honda just sits on people.
its how much people mash to get out. there’s some varience in general with the bearhug crossup, but if they mash correctly, they can avoid the crossup altogether.
there’s also some timing issues and what you’re using to cross up/fake crossup.
I don’t remember now for some reason, but I think the only characters you can fierce grab and then immediately hold up-toward+down-forward to randomly crossup and safe jump against are Chun and Guile. Maybe you can also do this on Dictator? Weird, I can’t recall for sure, but I don’t think you can. Anyway, the fact that it’s also a safe jump is totally sweet for you. However, the fact that it can randomly cross up means that you don’t necessarily know which way to block your opponent’s reversal, so this isn’t an air-tight trap.
Other grab-to-jump shenanigans:
–Fierce grab Boxer and Fei, jump toward+short for safe jump
–Fierce grab Dictator and Sim, jump toward forward for safe jump
–Roundhouse grab on Ryu, Fei, and Guile, jump toward short for safe jump
–Fierce grab DeeJay, walk toward and do early crouching jab for a safe meaty
–Fierce grab Ryu, Fei, and Chun, walk toward and do max-range early standing jab for a safe meaty
–Fierce grab everyone but Claw, Sagat, and Dictator in the corner, walk far into the corner, crouching roundhouse for a sweep they have to block as a crossup, walk slightly less far into the corner for them to have to block as a non-crossup
–Fierce grab most characters midscreen (gah, I can’t recall which, but definitely not Claw, Sagat, or Dictator), walk far toward and crouching short/jab as a crossup meaty, walk a little less far toward to do a non-crossup meaty
I’m having a weird brain fart about this right now, so I’m not 100% on these. Sorry heh.
The damage and shenanigans Honda gets out of his regular grabs are why I don’t think the ochio bounceback is very important. Nowadays I only use ochio as a negative edge move if I’m worried about the opponent reversaling or as a stored move if an opponent is in my face so that I can just drum punches and throw him out. In regular situations, regular grab all day.
Lately I’ve been playing Classic more. I really miss Old Honda.
Question for honda players:
What can Fei and Cammy do against slaps ?
At all ?
Die.
As an aside, has the matchup with DJ really changed? I think it was 9-1 in OG ST. The real problem with DeeJay was that he had a response to everything Honda had. Does the new j.Short trade or beat the slide? Does he have anything against j.Roundhouse? Is jab torpedo useful in this matchup?
I don’t really have the right here to be a backseat mod, but do any other folks here think that the character strats threads should be mostly reserved for strats for using that character as opposed to defeating that character? (except in the mirror match)
At least when it comes to matchup specific information?
I’m thinking this may be a good custom because it might make it easier to find the correct advice.
What I mean is, I would think a Ryu player would want to go to the Ryu thread to see how to fight with him. I would not think they should have to go to the Honda thread to find Ryu vs. Honda strats or the Dee Jay thread to find Ryu vs. Dee Jay strats. They should all be in the Ryu thread.
This of course applies to matchup specific information. General weaknesses of a character would go in thier own thread.
As it is now, could you really reliably predict where a new post about playing Chun-Li vs. Guile would go? In the Guile thread? Chun li’s?
Ultra, regarding the crossups I’m not sure the crossup vs. Dic is safe, it may well not be, but it is meaty. Not as good, but still dangerous.
But sometimes it doesn’t cross up at all. So much so that you noticably hit in front and land if front after the hit. He just falls in such a way as to not get crossed up at all. It isn’t hard to figure out where Honda’s gonna end up after the roundhouse hits.
As for Chun, I notice something similiar, sometimes she falls weird so he noticably hits her from farther away so there is no way he will cross up. And it only happens with her on his left.
It’s weird, check it out in training sometime.
I’ll look for you next time I play so I can show you what I mean in a room.
Oh and thanks for those other setups, I love that kind of information. And yeah, O. Honda’s great, but I like HF honda better - HF buttbomb has interesting properties.
(I really miss both of their normals - I practically dream about a “perfect honda” with the best combination of all the versions properties. )
Hi guys.
I would class myself as an OK honda player but I’m having a hard time against a certain guile player.
Basically he plays guile so negatively, I wish I could personally come down and beat him up but I will explain my problem.
This guile player knows that when I play, I have to get near him to beat him.
As a guile player all he does is wait for me to attack him and I can’t get close without suffering damage…
HE NEVER EVER ADVANCES TOWARDS ME AND ALWAYS WAITS FOR MY MOVE SO HE CAN COUNTER ATTACK ME EVERYTIME!!!
In fact, in all the games I’ve played with him (I reckon over 100) I’ve never seem him move towards me, once!
I’m not going to name, names but put simply he is going all out for a win and never plays anyone but guile!
honda jab torpedo is OK but the delay afterwards allows guile to poke me with crouching medium kick.
If guile throws a sonic boom and I try and jump over it, what are my best options other than jumping weak kick and butt drop?
All in all guys, how do I get close to him and beat this negative playing, guile player?
Thanks to all replies in advance.
He has no reason to move foreward if you cannot get past his sonic booms without eating a flash-kick
Playing negativly or turtling is a very strong way for Guile to play, especially against Honda. So don’t fault the player, he’s simply doing what he is supposed to.
The good news is that Honda does in fact have some good tools to deal with Guile.
Here’s some ways I like to get close to guile:
Empty jumps - Jumping foreward over a boom is rather risky, but it’s harder to hit you when you don’t attack when jumping. This is good for footsweeps as you can land and block or even hit at some ranges that you would have gotten hit otherwise. HHS and roundhouse footsweep are an excellent follow up to this. Short & medium butt and jab torp can be used too now as they will likely actually hit if not reversed.
Jumping foreward short kick - makes you into a small target and drops you out of the air fast. Use this to clear a boom and land sooner than expected. Do this while charging and you can punish their flash-kick attempt or other attempts to hit you as you jump or land. You can even hit some footsweeps with this move, so it’s helpful to remember in those cases too.
Jumping controllable fierce - this is a major tool. It leaves you neautral or with a very slight gain, so it’s hard to punish. You can easily buffer fierce slaps when doing this and therefore land into slaps to trade or even beat the boom before it comes out fully.
Butt bomb - gotta use all three strengths depending on the circumstances or you will get punished. If you are sure he is throwing another boom, you can use a
roundhouse butt bomb to hit him while recovering or throwing the next one.
either time it very early, or very late, anything resembling “normal” timing will be hit.
As you get closer, you will be able to use the medium but to hit with also - it’s something to mix up with and the roundhouse can even cross up if you get close enough for that matter. As with the roundhouse, you will have to use tricky timing in order to get the hit and avoid the punish.
It can be very fun to pound people from the air with these moves once you get close enough to use the medium as well, but they are a very, very punishable moves so the utmost caution is recomended.
Use the medium when he is trying to jump in while you have a sonic boom do deal with first, this often suprises Guile or Chun-li players when they get smacked out of the air with this.
Use short as a change-up as they will miss if they expect the medium or roundhouse.
These moves IMO require the most experimentation and experience to use correctly.
Anyone can go over a boom with a butt-bomb, but not getting punished for it is hard.
Jumping roundhouse - If you can get very close and he still throws a boom, you can jump over the boom and hit with the jumping roundhouse from a suprising distance. Be careful with this one as it is the primary attack they expect and will be the best prepared to punish this move.
Against guile do not use this when there is no boom in your face, or you will eat a flash kick. Do not use it to clear a boom unless it’s going to hit, even then be careful as the Guile player is literally waiting for this attack.
This move can hit the flash kick, but I havn’t been able to do this well since my super days and I don’t suggest ever trying as once they realize you can should you develop the ability, they will simply mix up their strengths and you will find it next to impossible to do anymore. But really it’s becase trying is just going to get you hit. Don’t try to beat the flash-kick with your roundhouse. I only inclused this note as a technicality.
Jab torpedo - destroys booms now, but as punishable when it doesn’t hit as always. Never, ever use this at mid range to kill a boom. Either use it at long range when it is hard to hit you during recovery, or use it at close range where you will actually hit with it.
the close range use is the best, but if one is to use it from long range, it is best to mix it up with the chort butt bomb and the controllable fierce.
Vertical jump - clears the faster booms and leaves you in the same place. This often confuses projectile throwers as they are not prepared to counter it. It also leaves the option to throw the higher-priority vertical jump attacks if he tries to jump in. Sometimes it’s good to hop two or more times in a row while setting the opponent up. You can still buffer slaps and charge moves in the air also.
**HHS **- even when not jumping the HHS is an excellent anti-projectile tool. if you get the oppertunity, you can use the fierce HHS to lunc foreward to trade with or stop the next boom. Also good if he is just sitting there without a boom. Once you hit with this, you can either cancle and do it again (several times), or wait and bait the flash-kick and punish it with a headbutt or grab.
Towards standing roundhouse - another great move - this has great reach and knocks down, so even trading with it with a boom is in your favor. Think of throwing this move whenever you are in range, or if his attempt to throw a boom would place him in range.
Bulldogging - you gotta get close sometime, and this actually works pretty well compared to jumping. Simply walk in and block the projectiles as they come. You eat a lot of chips, but they see you do the same thing alot, so when you finally choose one of your jumping options above, they will be less prepared for it. Otherwise, you may actually get close enough to perform one of the non-jumping options.
Double jump - time your jump so you actually land and jump again to attack. practically speaking, this is done with controllable fierce, vertical jump, and empty jump. Attacking has a recovery that prevents the next jump from having the intended effect. You’d be suprised how well simply not attacking when jumping, then jumping again can be. Kusumondo does this well.
Fierce Headbutt - Use this to pre-empt a boom. It is fast enough to hit him before the next boom if you get it out before he starts the boom up. The flash kick or jabs can still stop it though, so this must be used when you are sure a boom is coming and you can get there first. This is often immediatly after a jump-back, but you must time the hit just as he lands or his juping attack will probably win if he expects it. he can also hit with a flash kick.
Many opponents become vulnerable to fierce headbutt when jumping back, but it is also a common setup to jump back and bait the headbutt. It gets real bad if you are baited in the corner or at the edge of your range, as they can jump over you and cross you up and often make you eat a really ugly combo.
It all depends on if they are not expecting it, or baiting you - that’s where experience with mind games come in. It is so risky when they are in the corner, it is almost never worth attempting to punish with the headbutt when they are in there.
**Mix it up **- use these various methods alternatly or in combination. You’ll need to experiment with this stuff to see how it works for you. Is your opponent susceptible to a short Butt Bomb followed by HHS? How about controllable fierce into jab torp?
**In the end you will be using bulldogging and floating fierce the most until you get into truely close range. **
If all he does is throw booms and keep charging for another boom or a flash kick if you are too close, it becomes very easy to close into medium range as he is not using all his tools to stop you from closen. Merely jumping, butt bombing, or even jump roundhouse will do this if he relies solely on the booms to keep you out.
He must threaten to potentially jump at youor foot sweep from place, or after walking foreward or it really isn’t too hard to close.
Once you find yourself staring at a charged flash-kick from medium range, either because he let you get there by relying on booms or because you worked your way in, you still have some obstacles to clear before you are dealing damage.
He will throw booms when he is sure you will block them to push you out. if you are charging from really close (it can happen) he will push you out with crouching kicks then throw booms to get that all important distance. He also may jump back until he can no longer do so.
He will no longer constantly throw booms as he does not want to be successfully jumped. If he is good at buffering a charge while throwing a boom, he can flash kick suprisingly soon, so he will still have many chances to try that boom. But now he will be more cautious.
You don’t want to simply jump in, unless you can time a boom and catch him without a charge.
Instead you can chip with the headbutt. Fierce is so fast that at this range it is hard to counter, and jab goes through booms. But at this distance booms and sometimes even flash-kicks can get hit. Vary the timing - don’t get mechanical or you will get timed and reversed. Only do it so many times in a row.
Another tool is the vertical jump to buffer slaps. it has it’s risks in the roundhouse flashkick, but the Guile player will often not be ready to counter this until he’s seen it a few times.
You also may want to buffer slaps while poking - just toss out jabs and strongs occasionally, but at your choosing, you can mash em into slaps. You can also charge while doing this in case you want to try the headbutts.
This is the range you will be using those crouch roundhouses, but as he is holding a charge he will often simply end up blocking with you getting pushed out. Use this if you can stop ar trade with a boom when he tries to push you out with one.
Butt bombs are never reccomended when guile is holding a charge, if you anticipate a boom that’s meant to push you out, you may be able to use the butt-bomb, but guile recovers well, and as stated before, this can be somewhat hard.
I personally thinks butt bombs that can actually hit are great to use against Guile, but you must be careful you don’t get reversed, as it is painfully easy for a flash kick to do so, but if he is thinking another boom, you can get an easy hit.
**In the case that he sees you vulnerable and decides to come in for a crossup **-
Jab headbutt still stops it and the medium and short butt bomb stops a lot of jump-ins easily. Fierce and medium headbuttas also have their roles in stuffing jumps when used correctly.
You have another very powerful tool. Block the hit and then charge the oichou as you switch blocks by running the controller across the bottom of it’s gate as you do so, a d-pad will need to remember to go through down on the way to the other blocking position. Now the throw is charged and you can either mash out a counter, or do a negative piano if you are concerned about a reversal. (the negative piano is pressing all three buttons and holding them down during blockstun, then releasing them one at a time rapidly when it’s time to throw, this gives you three throw attempts without giving up the block.
There’s lots of fun stuff to do to guile after you get close.
Ultimatly you want to grab. See above for some suggestions for what to do to Guile once you’ve grabbed him.
Also look at crayfish’s TOD combo’s video on youtube:
[media=youtube]pB1_TIoJy1o[/media]
I like to do the fierce grab into meaty medium crossup combo’d into roundhouse for the knockdown followed by a close wiffed butt bomb into oichou. This is not as hard to reverse as the meaties, butt makes for a nice finish on this particular death-sequence.
Now is also the perfect time to punish with the HHS. Butt bombs are overheads, so the quicker ones can be used to keep up the pressure as long as you mix them up with other attacks and do not over use them in general. After you are pushed out of slap range by the slaps themselves, you can either start more slaps, use a headbutt, try a buttbomb, or bait and counter.
Ultimatly with two equal players, Guile still ahs the advantage, that’s just the way it is, but he is not without thigs he can do. He has all the tools he needs to beat guile, it just takes somewhat better timing and understanding of distance than the opponent. Of course, once you inderstand the matchup better than the opponent, he will be unable to impose his advantage until he himself learns what you know.
Hope this helps you versus guile, I’m sure the other strong honda players here will have suggestions of their own.
What do you mean by ‘negative playing’? As a Guile player myself, I have no reason to ever move towards certain characters, Honda being one of them. The only time you’ll see me move towards Honda is if he is dizzy or if I’m going for a tick throw. Thing is, tick throws are dangerous on Honda because of his Ochio, so you won’t see me doing that very often either.
What do you expect Guile to do? Walk forward and try to combo you lol?
Chaghatai, thanks for the tips… I’ll certainly will give it a try!
lseelba, I know what you mean but it’s kinda boring for guile just to stay in their own corner and not really attack.
I mean fair play to the guile player this is all in the game but he/she is not exactly playing a skillful way of even trying to attempt to beat me.
I mean even when I have a dizzy honda this guile player doesn’t even walk up to me and try a throw or even do any guile combos on me.
I can take losing to a good skillful player but not one that doesn’t even try THAT hard to even make it fun.
P.S. I’m seriously not having a go at you or any guile players out there - It’s just that I’ve seen myself some absolutely amazing, attacking and aggresive minded, guile players.
I don’t think most Honda players realize how scary he is. I never feel comfortable fighting a good Honda player even though I understand his strengths and weaknesses really well. He has a way of punishing mistakes and making absurd comebacks that most other characters can’t match. He’s like a slower, harder hitting and more resilient version of Vega in that his moves can be hard to predict and react to.
As someone who picks Honda the majority of the time, I feel your pain. In the end, the best turtle (Guile) beats the second best turtle (Honda) at his own game. Guile is not going to win this match by playing aggressively. He’s going to win by crouching the entire time and making you react to his sonic booms.
He absolutely is trying to beat you and doing it the most skillfull way possible. I mean… how can you say he isn’t trying to beat you if he’s the one winning. The fact is, honda has a hard time getting near guile if the guile player is cautious but, if he gets in… the guile player is probably going to lose. I’ve won against countless impatient guiles because they decide to rush down honda as if he was just any other character. When guile goes on the offense, honda is a HUGE favourite. If a guile player attacks you,and you beat him… where’s the skill in that. Honda can tick throw charge characters easily, and Oicho wrecks guile. Plus honda’s throws are much much better than guiles. The worst thing a guile player can do is blindly charge honda and hope it goes well
As has been stated before, the Guile player is very skillfully pressing his range advantage against Honda. Every character has a preferred range in a given matchup, and in his one, for Honda it is as close as possible.
It would be foolish for Guile to close if he’s not getting something for free.
If a Guile player is skillfully rushing you down and beating you with direct, close-range attacks, crossups etc. they are not respecting your game.
They’re hotdogging.
They’re literally saying that you’re not good enough to force them to zone you so they want to look fancy or give themselves a challenge punishing you other ways.
Good Guile players close on Honda players when they are sure they are enough better than their opponents that they can get away with it.
That’s not the “respect” I want.
Playing defensively requires plenty of skill. Spacing, reflexes, patience, it’s not something anyone can do, and execution is not the only way to measure skill.
oh… one further side note…
as a honda player it is often very correct to do just what the guile player does. against none projectile players, simply back-downing it until your opponent does something gives a lot of characters fits. they have to come to you, and you can counter many lines of their attack. some of the best honda players turtle like nobodies business