Was sthawk better than unfinished hdrhawk? If he couldnt get hdrhawk done in time why leave him unfinished, why not just leave hawk the same?
Obviously Sirlin had no idea what he was doing when he ‘rebalanced’ Hawk. That’s the most honest way to put it unfortunately. Sirlin may know more about ST than most people but there is no way that anyone ever told him that the Hawk changes were good before the game came out.
Giving R.Hawk, O.Hawk’s normals was a good choice. But weakening both the dive and the command throw when not a single person suggested anything along those lines to him across the development cycle of HDR was asinine at best. It’s not like these are subtle changes to a character, like changing a hit box slightly or adding one frame or invincibility, or changing the input window for a command, these were major changes that directly affected how Hawk would be played across every character match.
Almost every American and Japanese based chart or tier list for HDR puts N.Hawk near the extreme bottom with O.Hawk occupying part of the basement as well. So for Sirlin to try to rationalize the weakening of two of his special moves, including his main offensive weapon, is incredible. Basically one of the worst characters from ST, Hawk, was nerfed more than any other character in HDR. Does anyone dispute this? I can’t possibly think of another character of the original 16 that has gotten a worse treatment in HDR.
In HDR, Hawk is the only character to play almost completely different than his ST counterpart. Because the dive doesn’t knockdown you have to play several character matches significantly differently. Hawk’s only real advantage in ST was that his command throw had no whiff. You could negative edge the throw and option select would allow you to keep an advantage no matter what your opponent did. Well all of that is gone.
No character of the original 16 was changed as much as Hawk was from ST to HDR and clearly that was for the worst. The changes in HDR should have been the smallest possible. Large character altering changes like Hawk are too extreme.
Obviously because Sirlin is gone from Backbone these changes to Hawk will be permanent so I guess get used to them. :lame: Also Hawk still have a bug in his SUPER command that Zangief had in the launch version of HDR. The patch fixed Zangief’s SUPER command…and not Hawk’s. Another lame aspect of HDR Hawk.
Seriously. I dont think taking the loop out was that big of a deal. If you’re smart, its hard enough for hawk to get in deserves SOME kind of reward. and if he actually gets you in the corner, it should be gg. The loop isnt THAT easy to perform anyways. Maybe I just blow at negative edging.
Jiggly - What was his reasoning for the DP bug?
Fei and Cammy seem to play more differently than Hawk to me. But, I don’t play any of those characters seriously. So maybe I’m off base there. Also, I’d give honorable mention to Vega since he can’t just wall-dive all day. Well, at least not as effectively.
Honestly, I think the character that got nerfed the worst was Chun. Hawk does have a couple of unfortunate glitches (Super command and no active SPD grab frames). But besides that, he seems better to me than O.Hawk or ST.Hawk. At least it feels that way when I play against him. I’m sure some matches are better/worse than others with his changes. But all in all, he seems like he’s competitive.
HDR hawk only feels better than o.hawk cause its easy to walk up 360. honestly, i probably cant do it like i could in vanilla st now but if you were good with 360s with O.hawk, hes better.
Yes, the easier walk-up 360’s do seem like they help him. They seem doubly so since if you end up blocking a dive you’re left wondering if he’ll poke, DP, or walk-up 360. So yeah, that does seem like a buff to me. Also, he has a super now. And since it’s easy to build up his meter, that seems like it helps too. Finally being able to tech throws certainly doesn’t hurt. I mean, it’s not often that people are throwing Hawk, but it happens.
I can appreciate that the dive not knocking down does hurt a bit. Probably a lot in some match-ups. But don’t you also find that it being safer on block helps offset that a bit? I’ll use the Dhalsim match as an example, since that’s my best frame of reference. As Sim in ST, I was never afraid of the dive. I block it and Hawk eats a roundhouse every time. There’s no chance of failure. In remix, I have to jab him out of the air. If I do it successfully it does less damage and I don’t think it knocks him back as far. If I screw up, I take damage and get put into a bad situation.
Is Sim the exception? I can see how in some matches the loss of knock down from a dive might hurt more than the other factors help. But is that only a couple of matches? Or is that the more common case?
As it has been well documented, Hawk has always occupied a fairly low standing in relation to the entire cast since his iteration. IMO, he was one of the easiar characters to "fix"since all he needed was additives to his game…not subtractions. So here is how he should have been remixed, in 5 suggestions or less.
- Knockdown from Dive
- s.RH is a overhead again
- Whiff from 360 is gone
- damage output remains unchanged
- 0 recovery when a hawk dive lands, no more sliding
Sirlin knows SF, but he isn’t perfect and is bound for some errors. He completly fucked fei in this game as well so I feel the frustration of the hawk players.
The problem is that if you hit them with a dive or they block it you still aren’t within DP range on anyone unless they throw a fireball or some other big move (sticking their limbs out) which no one smart is going to do. All an opponent really has to do is duck after a dive and if you DP you whiff and if you walk up they can just footsie you quickly and gain the advantage.
The rewards for the new dive only will work on opponents who have no idea what to do in that situation.
In ST if you got hit with the dive it was a tremendous advantage for Hawk because it knocked you down. No decent Hawk player is going to repeatedly spam the dive to the point where you can predict it every time and block and punish. I don’t think you would say that you didn’t fear the dive if your competition was Inomata or Mayakon or Toutanki etc.
The best Hawk players would dive at the most opportune times, times where the dive would connect, and they would score the knockdown. This means the better Hawk players got punished in HDR because that reward is gone, and the inferior Hawk players get a dive with less risk but less reward but the inferior Hawk players weren’t diving at the correct times anyways so they get the most benefit out of the new dive.
The new dive is service to the worst players and not the best players. In my opinion.
Even if Chun received the most nerfs and Hawk got the second most, the point I was making still stands. The point being that Hawk as one of, if not the lowest tier characters in ST didn’t need such a huge set of nerfs compared to the rest of the cast.
Honda has a stored command throw with negative edge properties allowing for option select. Zangief has a command throw with several active grab frames and a whiff animation. Zangief’s super motion no longer has a bug in it. Hawk has a command throw with less active grab frames than Zangief and a whiff animation. Hawk’s super motion has a bug in it. It’s discrepancies like this that point out how overlooked and flawed Hawk’s design in HDR are.
Just read through the T.Hawk Remix thread and see how when the game first came out people could tell something was wrong with Hawk’s command throw but no one could put a finger on it.
These below are all taken from the T.Hawk Remix thread.
This is what I saying before. The new command inputs for the command throws are only to help scrubs out, period. There is no nice way of saying it but Sirlin clearly was listening to the people complaining about how difficult walk up throws were with T.Hawk and not the people who chose to practice to get good instead. You had 3 frames to throw from standing in neutral with Hawk. That’s less strict timing than reversal (which is 1 frame).
The new dive offers no advantages compared to the old dive in almost all of the match ups.
And there we go. Sirlin gave Hawk a new dive that’s better against two characters…and worse against the rest of the cast.
Lastly go to YouTube and watch ST Hawk matches and see how often good players did walk up throws (often meaning the new commands are pointless) and see how often they did a dive at the wrong time (not often meaning the dive was ok risk/reward wise if you were good).
S.rh was an overhead at one point??
- Release a PC version, and an arcade port
- Add the rest of ggpo
- Fix Akuma
As for the rest, lets get a few years of tournaments in first… maybe some people will have set down the ST colored glasses by then.
Not in ST or AE both of which I just booted up.
Standing roundhouse for both O.Hawk and N.Hawk whiff against a ducking Vega (Dictator) and close standing roundhouse whiffs for N.Hawk and can be blocked low for O.Hawk (tested against Vega again).
I don’t get why Claw keep his super motion when the exact same motion was deemed to hard for Guile players ?
Just for the sake of consistency.
He said it wasn’t high enough of a priority. I called BS at first because of that, but he said programming other things such as reversal supers for Ken, Sagat, and Dhalsim came first. Now that I think about it, I bet if there was a reversal bug like that with Honda, it would’ve been one of the first things gone. And I disagree with Hawk being worse than in HDR. As Sweet said, it really does help in some fights like Dhalsim. If Hawk had both Dives, there would be no complaints from me.
[quote=SweetJohnnyV;6779657Hawk versus Sim…
[/quote]
IMHO…
The new dive is HUGE for HDR.Hawk. Especially against Sim. It alone has drastically changed the match up.
It does HUGE life on hit or trade.
Closes distance whether it it hits, trades, or is cleanly beaten (with Jab).
Gives Hawk a great mix up after on hit/ trade/ or block.
It is damn near spam-able at close range. Sprinkle in some DPs (see point above)and you have a nasty mix up.
BTW. For those who say O.hawk was low tier. I remember there was a new tier list that came out a bit ago from japan.
Edit: Found the link: http://curryallergy.blogspot.com/2008/02/tougeki-08-st-rules-plus-character.html
Thanks be to Nohoho… 
I think it’s because if he changed it to Guile’s new motion, you wouldn’t be able to choose which wall you want to jump off from.
Plus it’s not possible for Vega to waste his Super.
In SSF2 it was a overhead, in turbo it was removed. As for the hawk debate, why not just allow allow the knockdown propery with the new benefits of the dive. This decision was almost as sensible as nerfing fei’s CW’s and flamekicks…I mean why the hell would u nerg a character that was already a mid tier.
I had no idea about that embrio.
Safe Knockdown dive is too much. Ill admit to that. That would be too good. Would shoot him up in the ranks undoubtedly.
Virtua said everything I can say 
Still would take R.Hawk over N.Hawk or O.Hawk. For the most part, all the matches except for Guile and Honda seem a little easier.
if i wasnt so weened on walk up hcb, f command throws, id take o.hawk. it only feels easier because walk up 360 is easier.
I know people would say that, but consider this:
Rog’s turn punch knocks down and is completly safe and sets up for a tick throw
Honda’s heatbutts all knockdown and are completly safe on block
Bison’s crusher is safe and it knocks down
Hawk’s dive can also be stuffed with a well timed jab or DP anyway.