Rebalancing ST Remix

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
1

Most likely the game will never be rebalanced, but if it does, this is what I’d like to see:

Game-wide changes:
-all DP input windows should be shortened to 12 frames, possibly 10 frames, 15 is too large, this will make it easier to do walk up, qcf moves without getting a DP
-original ST backgrounds for Classic mode
-O.Alternate colors available in Remix mode by holding Start

Ryu
-fix the Super combo glitch (cr Short x2, Super will fail 50% of the time even when executed perfectly)
-longer duration on the Fake Hadoken, Fake is now 22 frames, would be nice to see it increased to 32 frames, as it is now it allows him to shave 10 recovery frames off his sweep
-or just remove it, it helps only a little vs Dhalsim, Vega and Balrog but it’s too good in his other matchups

Ken
-nothing

Honda
-removal of stored Oichio, *or *change command to HCF instead of HCB and allow storing on f, df and uf positions, *or *keep storeability in the db position but nerf the hell out of its range (maybe even less range than Fei’s throws), but either way the way it is now has got to go
-punishable Torpedo on block (same recovery as Remix Blanka’s H Roll or slightly better) so that fireball characters cannot punish him but non fireball characters can and those who can’t can gain ground or punish in the corner
-slightly longer duration of invincibility for Jab Torpedo (or more frames of the fireball-killing property) so that it can more often be used on reaction to kill fireballs instead of on prediction alone
-O.Honda normals
-give him back his stored Super, if Oichio is storeable on f positions, Super takes priority
-longer invincibility duration on startup for the Super so that meaty fireballs don’t hit him, the 1st few hitting frames should at least be invincible (or more frames of the fireball-killing property), it should at least be as easy as Bison or Balrog’s Super to go through fireballs
-make the 2nd hit of his Super faster so that it can’t be punished on block
-faster recovery so that his Super is always safe on block from attacks like Balrog’s reversal Rush

Chun Li
-give her back her Classic ST SBK, new SBK is much worse, preferably O.Chun’s SBK
-removal of down, up Air SBK command, keep it the same as Classic ST (back, forward charge) so that she can do her neutral j.Kick anti airs on reaction after having charged down
-remove the new Super juggle property, keep Super the same as Classic ST
-return the Upkicks juggle-ability after Super on all characters, only thing needed is a damage reduction to the Super which she got, so instead of doing 80% total in ST, will now do 60% total

Blanka
-remove the damage penalty on Horizontal Roll, it’s too big of a nerf that he doesn’t need
-longer range Rainbow Roll and/or RR that knocks down on hit
-slightly buff the hitbox of one of his crouching normals to be able to beat DJ’s cr Strong and/or cr Jab, maybe buff the cr Fierce or sweep

Zangief
-all Banishing Fists should have the new recovery, not just the Jab
-add hitboxes to his Spinning Lariats so that he can still hit when his arm is not extended (eg facing sideways), this will help vs Honda’s Torpedo but the hitbox shouldn’t be too low so that opponents can still poke him

Guile
-remove the NE glitch on his Super

Dhalsim
-fix the Reversal Teleport glitch but he shouldn’t be able to Teleport too far away, just enough to escape safejumps and tick 360s but still punishable by a player with good reaction
-Super command should be qcf x 2 just like the rest of the non-charge characters
-Flame command should be qcf Kick instead of qcb Punch, as it is now, accidental Flames come out when trying to reversal throw or anti air Punch from a db to a b position

Hawk
-more active frames on Typhoon
-fix the Super command glitch
-fix the reversal DP bug
-bouncing back, knockdown Dive from Classic ST on PPP and safe Dive from ST Remix on KKK or if this is not possible, then increase the damage and dizzy of the safe Dive

Fei
-RH Flying Kick has the same recovery as the ST version and can be comboed into standing Fierce but loses some startup invincibility and air to air priority
-or keep all Flying Kicks the same as classic versions, but allow Flame Kicks to destroy fireballs so that Fei can escape fireballs on wakeup or while walking forward

Dee Jay
-increase the speed of the hits of his Super Attack so it never whiffs a hit in between and is never counterable in between hits
-get rid of MGU’s fireball-killing property, he doesn’t need it and it looks stupid

Cammy
-longer invincibility duration for the Jab Spinning Knuckle to better get around fireballs like Kikkoken and Ryu’s Super, or slightly increase the speed of all Knuckles so that it’s easier to punish fireball recovery
-return her diagonal j.Strong’s hitbox from ST
-return her safe-on-block Thrust Kick from ST

Balrog
-removal of the negative edge glitch so that TAP can be charged beyond level 2 with KK and still be able to Kick Rush with 3rd Kick, but will lose TAP charge same as ST
-remove the delay in between the hits of the Super so that it is never counterable in between hits

Vega
-nothing

Sagat
-Tiger Shot travelling speed feels more like N.Sagat than O.Sagat (I’m not talking about startup or recovery, I’m talking about the time it takes his fireball to cross the screen), if travelling speed is increased to be closer to O.Sagat (not as fast as O.Sagat tho), that might be better

Bison
-nothing

Akuma
-longer recovery when landing from Air Hadoken, about the same as Guile’s Flash Kick recovery now
-normal attack hitboxes should be exactly like Ryu
-Flame Hadoken hitbox shouldn’t be partially invincible in the front
-Air Hadoken hitbox should be smaller so that fireballs/characters can more easily go under or over it
-slightly less damage and dizzy on Tatsu and Shoryuken juggles
-longer recovery for Shoryukens since they’re completely invincible, slightly longer recovery than Ryu’s Shoryukens so that he can be punished by more things than Ryu (Ryu has 5 grounded recovery frames on the Jab Shoryuken as per YBH, Akuma should have 8)
-slightly slower startup on Super, this should prevent inescapable setups

2

Give Fei tripguard on Flying Kick.

3

That and give him his semi-safe jab headbutt back. It is waaaay too punishable as it is now. I mean, even the ST one was safe-jab-able, but this one can be sweeped from hella far away too.

Personally think he’s fine as is. Sometimes I miss stored super but it seemed really obvious when you go to use it (Honda rarely walks forward). I would probably give his torpedo and sumo splashes the same speed it had in HF with the hit properties left the same.

That would turn Blanka into a super fast Honda. I don’t think anyone would like that :sweat:

Personally think his lariats are annoying enough as is.

Sounds sacrilegious but I would take her stored super out. She doesn’t need that shit.

4

hmmm, lets see…

remove balrogs invincibility startup for buffalo headbutt, it has no business beating a flash kick
decrease the piority of balrogs dashing punches
akuma-- what can I say that hsnt already been said
cammy/feilong – remove their safe on block special moves
ken - give back invinciblity startup for his Dp’s

These are just my preferences, but most of all akuma needs fixing badly

5

Fei Long - Remove recovery frames on all CW’s

No other changes

6

Agreed.

No-one would ever pick Cammy or Fei if all their safe on block specials were removed. It is already not a brain dead task to measure the distance and choose the appropriate version of their specials, not to mention both anti-air special attacks having longer recovery in HDR.

Ken already has invincible SRKs during startup, and the strong one is completely invincible when it has offensive hitboxes. Just that they are faster than Ryu’s, so their invincibility ends quicker. With the exception of Ken’s strong SRK.

7

probably biased, but oh well…

Sagat
Something about his hitbox is odd. Fei can’t do HP, MP, LP rekka string to him. Not sure if this was intended.

Chun Li
Want the old SBK back.

Honda
LP headbutt can’t be anti-air, anti-fireball and safe-on-block at the same time.
Ochio should have a whiff animation, just like gief and hawk.

Claw
Hitbox is wierd during roll. Fei’s DP completely whiffs if claw is up close and personal.

Cammy
LK DP should be safe on block except when done at point blank range.

Fei
Fix LK DP hitbox so it actually hits Sim on his slide.
RK chicken-wing should combo on opponent (standing or crouching).
Super was supposed to be safe on block all the time but apparently that isn’t the case.

Hawk
What blitzfu said.

Akuma
What has already been said… in addition, make it harder to select. Moving up from honda is too easy. I propose Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, Square, X, start.

8

The only character I’d feel comfortable talking about changes for is Chun:

  1. Revert her SBKs to exactly how they were in ST. As an added bonus, make them invulnerable to throws on startup, so she has a reasonable way to escape grappler ticks.

  2. DF+Hk (Neckbreaker) should be reverted to normal. This isn’t as big a deal as some people think; it makes the move a lot harder to reverse, sure, but you can always try to reversal after you block it, which is what most good players I’ve faced try to do. The thing is, neckbreaker only crossed up in very specific situations, which most players don’t set up. So, now the move is a lot easier to reverse, and as far as I know, the problem which makes it hard to block - the fact that it can hit low if you do it meaty enough - still exists. So, the move has the worst of both worlds; it’s more dangerous to throw out in the first place, and it’s not much easier to block.

  3. Her super getting nerfed damage is fine; however, the way it was accomplished is a little weird. There are three ways in which Chun’s super had its damaged nerfed:

  • The third hit of the super (as opposed to the sixth final hit) initiates a knockdown/juggle state, causing only 5/6 hits of the super to connect.

  • Because a juggle state is initiated on the third hit, and only two more hits of the super are landed afterwards, Chun-Li can only juggle Upkicks for one hit afterwards.

  • The actual damage of each kick has been slightly lowered.

The problem? There are some characters (Guile, Sim, Sagat, Fei), who will randomly take only 4/6 hits unless you do the super at almost max range. When this happens, you don’t recover in time to hit them with Upkicks, either. Also, there are quite a few characters where it’s just plain hard to juggle the Upkicks for one hit afterwards.

My solution? Remove the super’s juggle ability, and make it so that all six hits of the super connect on every character, instead of having all six hits connect on only - ironically - Chun-Li.

9

Remember why he got the Buffalo Headbutt in the first place? It was so that he could actually compete with projectile throwers. He needs that invincibility startup. Guile doesn’t…so…Flash Kick him from further away. :slight_smile:

I disagree with all of these. Boxer is fine as is and…really…if you want a more balanced game, you should be trying to buff more characters, not nerf them. Cammy and Fei Long absolutely need the safe-on-block specials that they have in order to safely pressure their opponents. Even with them, they’re both the worst characters in the game. They need help, not nerfs.

As for my boy Ken, he already has a totally invulnerable strong DP. I equate his DP changes to what Guy’s Rising Spin Kick went through from Alpha 1 to Alpha 2 and, personally…I don’t mind it one bit. The risk/reward factor for Ken’s DPs is very balanced, IMHO.

10

your preferences are mostly crazy

esp. fei, he’d have no options or lee way for mounting offence

blanka would become a rock, with invincible vertical, im not quite sure, but don’t hops have some invincibility?

11

For the old school HF Chun Li player in me…can we make the aerial SBK a motion move instead of a charge move, then? :qcb:+:k: perhaps? That way, you’re able to do your instant jumping kicks and I’m still able to :d:+:mk: Head Stomp and then aerial SBK anyone silly enough to jump up after me.

I know…it’s not that practical, but at least she’d still have the move. :slight_smile:

Yes on the faster Rainbow Roll, but can we also get a Rainbow Roll that either starts a combo or knocks down? At the very least, that move should not leave you wide open when it hits.

I would be open to the Vertical Roll having the same invinciblity as the only other zero frame move in the game, Ken’s fierce DP. I’d say one…MAYBE JUST MAYBE two frames of invincibility, but nothing more. It already hits upon activation, so no need to make Blanka’s defense any better than that.

The first two suggestions I absolutely love. The third one…I could see that being useful against projectile throwers…and I guess he does need help there.

These three need some rationale behind them. Personally, I’d go for a faster Spin Knuckle…as in less startup…because, as it is, you pretty much have to guess in order to punish any projectile attempt. Since the jab one hardly has any reach, that would be the one I’d have start up quickly. Strong and fierce would start up more slowly.

I think the Cannon Drill and Thrust Kick are perfect the way they are in HDR as far as recovery time. If her moves were made any more safe, I’d think we’d start to see a lot of scrubby Cammys spamming those moves. I’d hate for that to happen. For me, the glaring deficiency in Cammy’s game is the lack of a quick overhead. I remember the idea of being able to press kick early in the Hooligan Combo to get the “sliding kick” animation to come out early and hit as an overhead. I mean, don’t get me wrong, being able to grab with it is great, but if it’s going to end up flying over the head of the opponent, being able to control it that much more would up Cammy’s game, in my humble and limited opinion.

The other idea that was thrown around that I liked was allowing the Cannon Drill to go under projectiles near the end of it. That would be lovely against Guile. Doesn’t she need help in that match?

I absolutely positively LOVE these suggestions. Love 'em so much I had to comment on them.

12

hawk
safe dive on KKK, old good dive on PPP :slight_smile:
fixed typhoon
dp needs a hitbox extending a little more below him because it really cant hit guiles or 99% of the casts low forwards, really have to be point blank.

13

Hmm, a dream post. blitzfu, your list looks pretty good overall. There are a few things that could really give it some kick though. Hell, I’m feeling creative, here goes.

Give Dic a teleport

Seriously, he’s so offense-oriented that this would pretty much just stop him from getting completely raped in the corner, his Achilles Heel as-is. He’s already got better aggressive tools to use against most attacks; a teleport (with around the same timing as Dhalsim’s) would just allow him to escape jump-in/splash loops and corner traps without gaining a distinct advantage. It would be pretty easy to recycle his arms-crossed win pose into something far more formidable.

Force Claw’s Wall Dives to jump only off the wall behind him

It’s so fast and dangerous even only off of one slightly more predictable wall. With this change though, it makes Wall Dive claws and throws almost risky for a change. Honestly his flip kick’s hitbox shouldn’t hit as low as it does, but if there was only one change I could make to Claw, it would be to the Dive. His game is so tight without the need for such BS; Sirlin was wise to attempt to back it down a notch.

UN-NERF CHUN-LI

I mentioned something earlier about Sirlin being wise. Well every creative endeavor has its less than stellar moments, and this one fell FLAT on its face. Dude, you were seriously asleep at the wheel on this one. Some blend of:

-More invincibility on super
-Upkicks hit at end of super as before
-Some kind of anti-air or escape when she’s cornered besides bending over and taking it from the big men (like, say, her old SBK)
-Make her unable to SBK in air just off the ground (this happens accidentally far too often)
-Make her knee flip always cross up instead of never from point-blank

I should elaborate on the last one a bit. It sounds a little wild (it is), but it’s nothing terribly new; we’re just not used to seeing it from a single move that’s not a standard jump-in like Ken’s mk. Having to always block it “backwards” from a close crouch isn’t broken like her old guessing games flip. This also would give Chun-Li the added benefit of squeaking a few pixels closer with it over fireballs and such, which is actually the better property at higher levels of play.

Other random points:

-Give Cammy her few pixels back on jumping mp! The rationale behind this was so weak: the lowest tier nerf against the highest’s cheese normal? Really? Really?

-Zangief’s fine the way he is, along with Ryu, Ken, Sagat, Guile, DeeJay, Balrog (he has enough tools to win already, still top tier), and Dhalsim (though the Super command motion changed to qcbx2 would follow with the motion of the move it’s based upon much better).

-Is Blanka’s horizontal ball attack so dangerous as to warrant extra damage when countered? Honda’s headbutt is harder to punish both before and after, with no damage adjustments. (That move, as listed earlier, could also be a bit more punishable, along with pretty much everything he has.)

-Definitely feeling most of the Fei change ideas listed here, especially tripguarded, option-select flying kicks. Short gets full invincibility but relatively high recovery, forward is a 50/50 (riskier to get in through a fireball, but if you do, and your timing is really good, you get a combo that you’ve earned), and roundhouse is much like it was before with no invincibility but a real threat in the corner. And give him his old short flame kick back; if Ken can have it, so should Fei.

14

If claw had to dive of his own wall he might aswell not have the walldive.

15

:shake:

Not many chuns used it, but damn the chuns who did could base their entire match on neckbreaker ambiguous crossups. I forgot if it was jchensor or NKI who made a video about it, but it showed how nasty you can get with that move. Dishragger used the shit out of it on HF :looney:

I thought that change was fine and warranted. I also LOL every time I see people trying to block it as a crossup in HDR quarter matches.

16

While this was an idea I had before this game came out, I think this would end up propelling Dictator’s game into the stratosphere. He’d become a little too good, IMHO. He already has enough tools to stay away from the corner. Still, this is one idea I’d like to see in practice.

This one I really don’t like…especially because this would only benefit people that have a horizontally charged special move that punishes the Wall Dive. Honda would immediately benefit since he can wait and then Headbutt. He needs a way to make them lose their charge…and that’s why he should be able to go off of either wall.

I already gave my Chun Li opinions, so I’ll leave that to the experts. I like yours, though, just so you know, but I do like the old and the new SBK, too. I just wish she was given more options to control it…like having the aerial :lk: SBK go horizontal, the aerial :mk: one go up a bit, and the aerial :hk: one could look like the current grounded :hk: one. Just a random idea.

Aw man…there’s one I forgot! I totally agree with that one.

17

I’ve talked to Sirlin already on the topic of Hawk having two Dives, his safe-no-knockdown, and unsafe-knockdown Dive. Sirlin claimed that it would require a team of programmers to get that in the game. I can’t comment on this because I don’t know shit about programming. What I can say though is that this is the only thing I would have added for Hawk. I can live without his DP not being able to reach a crouching Guile. If I had a knock down Dive, I would gladly shutup. Any other change Hawk gets could really turn Guile Vs. Hawk into an easy match-up for Hawk, which shouldn’t happen. Its nice for Hawk to have tools that make the fight a little more bearable. Honda is gonna be hard no matter what. MAYBE the only other change I would have for Hawk is just a little bit more priority on his Rising Hawk. Its pretty stupid how a Hurricane Kick can beat if you ask me.

I still believe he didn’t test T.Hawk enough though, and the DP bug is MORE than enough proof of that.

18

Slightly agree Jiggly. The only reason I would want both old + safe dive and added range on his DP is because of the fact hawk can get punished with the old dive on block. Guile can also spam st.jabs and beat it out, and jump straight up fp (maybe? they all look the same) to beat it as well. more priority OR range on rising hawk would be nice definitely. id really go for either one

DP bug AND the fact that his 360 doesnt work right is more than enough proof that sirlin didnt test him enough

dict definitely doesnt need a teleport. hello over powered.

19

I’ll call Sirlin and Backbone out on this one.

ST Hawk is in the game’s classic mode with the old dive just fine. HDR Hawk has the new dive with new commands also. They didn’t have trouble putting those in the game at all. Combing them would be extremely simple. Hawk could have both dives if Backbone wasn’t such a garbage company (at least with what they did for HDR).

You’re telling me that Backbone figured out how to port Hawk intact for classic mode, make a new dive with new commands, but couldn’t figure out how to map one dive to one command and the other dive to another? Bullshit.

This is the same company that couldn’t figure out that choosing the start colors would crash the game and that on the PS3 version if your controller is in slot #2 is reads it as #1 and resets the controls not to mention a million other programming errors.

DP bug is fine, it’s one of those nuances of ST/HDR that makes it great.

The 360 not working correctly and the 720 command being horrible are problems that need fixing immediately.

20

zang–giving zang a more invincible kick lariet against the sumo headbutt would be the only change for zang i would want. right now anything zang has against that thing is 50-50 and shouldn’t be. any other changes would make zang way too powerful.

t-hawk–i use to whiff his 360 all of the time but only because i used zang’s timing. i delay his 360 a bit more and get the command throw a lot more often now. ran into guys who used forward/strong/low jab in their combos and never missed their 360’s so i don’t think any changes there are necessary. one suggestion is to have him be able to cancel his hawk dive ala vega’s wall dive cancel. guile and honda problems solved.

akuma–only his short hurricane kick juggles and his air fireball does not have hit stun capabilities.