Rebalancing ST Remix

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
21

Great suggestions guys. I like what OJ said about Blanka’s Rainbow Roll knocking down on hit. Maybe the invincible on startup Vertical Roll would be too much, but I wanted Blanka to have some answer to Honda’s meaty Slaps on wakeup. The Back Hop has a little invincibility but not enough.

Chun Li’s Knee Drop in ST WAS ambiguous. Yes, it didn’t cross up every character at any distance, but it was a crazy tactic to defend against, just like Claw’s knockdown Dives in ST, ESPECIALLY for charge characters. I’d be fine with it always crossing up. Or as a compromise, if it remains ambiguous, then it shouldn’t knockdown but have it “reset” the opponent as if they were hit out of the air. That way the opponent is not knocked down and Chun Li doesn’t get punished for it. Best of both worlds IMO. Her Super is fine the way it is in Remix. I also like skankin garbage’s idea of slightly more invincibility on startup for the SBK.

Forgot to add that Hawk’s Super glitch needs to be fixed same as Zangief’s Super was fixed post-patch.

Dictator doesn’t need a Teleport. Devil’s Reverse already is great for escaping meaty grounded normals and a bigger hitbox on st.Jab would help with anti airs. I was trying to be conservative with my suggestions. I don’t want to break the game lol. = )

Also forgot to add for Honda a whiff animation on Oichio so that he can’t option select using negative edge for his tick throws. To balance the nerfs to Honda give him back his O.Honda normals, make the 2nd hit of his Super faster so that it can’t be punished on block and also more invincibility on startup for the Super. As it is now, if Honda does his Super at the last second before a fireball hits him, the Super will be hit by the fireball. That sucks, and this is coming from someone without a lot of love for the fat man. = )

Zangief’s Lariats maybe annoying, but he is definitely not top tier. He definitely needs some more buffs to compete.

Akuma’s Short Tatsu does not juggle, it’s the only one that doesn’t juggle.

22

Actually, from what NKI told me, they tried out the idea of not having the neckbreaker knock down during testing. They left it out because you could do a meaty combo, something like DF+Hk / S.Lp -> S.Lp, C.Lp XX Super, Upkicks for 90% damage.

23

That’s true, I also remember NKI mentioning that in the Chun Li thread. But instead of having the opponent remain on the ground for Chun Li to follow up with a combo, why not have the opponent “reset” as if they were hit out of the air? Then Chun Li would not be able to follow up with a guaranteed combo and the opponent would remain on their feet so that Chun couldn’t get another ambiguous Knee Drop. Fixes both problems and allows Chun players to keep their Knee Drop.

24

^^

I personally love this idea…plus Chun would still be able to play mind games with the opponent as they’re landing. The move hits and you’re rewarded with a mix-up. Sounds fair to me.

I know I have a habit of hoping against hope, but hey, it’s worked so far. It’d really be nice if Capcom got a hold of these changes, play-tested them, and then implemented them. Stranger things have happened.

25

These what if threads never go anywhere but whatever I’m fine with all remix changes EXCEPT nerfing fei’s combos and keeping stored oichio…everything else is great.

26

Also, would it be too much to ask for all charge characters to be able to end their horizontal charge moves in df to retain their down charge (db, df, ub)? Boxer can do it (Low Rush into Buffalo), so why can’t others? And all charge characters can already end their vertical charge moves in ub to retain their back charge. I think it would make all charge characters more fun and easier to use. I don’t think this would upset the balance of the game at all.

Some setups would be:

Chun Li - Kikkoken/SBK into Upkicks
Guile - Sonic Boom into Somersault/Super
Blanka - H Roll/R Roll into V Roll
Honda - Torpedo into Splash
Dictator - Scissors/Crusher into DR/Stomp
Claw - Roll/Flip into Dive/Super
Dee Jay - Max Out/Dread Kicks into Upkicks/MGU

Although, MO, MGU, MO might make DJ a beast in the fireball war so I recommend removing the fireball-destroying properties of the MGU. But other than that, I don’t think any of the above setups would destroy the balance of the game.

None of them are even close to being a combo, except maybe for Jab Sonic Boom into Roundhouse Somersault/Super due to Guile’s incredibly fast recovery after the Boom. But personally, I think Guile would benefit from a minor buff like that. Overall tho, it would just make charge characters more versatile and less defensive, which is a good thing IMO.

27

i would only b against that 4 guile, it could make him nearly invincible. any character without a fb wouldnt b able to even try to jump after his boom.

28

Yeah, that would make everyone with a charge projectile unstoppable turtles unless their recovery time was increased, which adds a whole new list of problems…

29

Game change: all supers do less damage except already-nerfed supers

Ryu: fine
–none

Ken: fine
–none

Honda: make him less of a defensive tank, give him better footsie and pressure normals
–ochio throw is no longer storable
–jab headbutt loses invincibility but keeps a very strong hitting hitbox
–jab headbutt moves a bit more slowly
–slaps hitboxes are more vulnerable
–when slaps are done close, they push the opponent away more on block/hit (ie out of throw range)
–O.Honda normals: standing fierce is always standing fierce chop, toward+short/forward are the faster/shorter range version of the toward+roundhouse walking trip, crouching fierce is the cancelable sweep

Chun Li: mostly fine
–instant aerial spinning bird kick thing is out

Blanka: mostly fine
–instead of making horizontal ball safer by having it recover faster while ending closer, it’s made safer by having it bounce farther away (so that opponents can walk in a little bit after blocking it)

Zangief: give him a real chance to get through walls with a better air normal and better footsies
–jumping down+short knees makes Gief’s hitbox smaller
–jumping down+forward knees has a stronger hitting hitbox at the knee
–the range of the hitting hitboxes on standing short, standing forward, crouching roundhouse, and spd are all increased by the same number of a few pixels so Gief becomes dangerous from a tiny bit farther away
–crouching jab has a longer range on its hitting hitboxes so that rapid fire jabs beat Honda’s headbutt and slaps and Blanka balls at a higher rate
–spd’s range is extended by the same pixels range as standing short and crouching roundhouse
–kick lariat loses low invincibility
–punch lariat no longer hits at Gief’s feet
–both lariats have more hitting frames in their rotations so that Gief can actually use them to beat things
–both lariats have slight in-bending holes in their hitboxes at the exact height of Dictator’s standing roundhouse

Guile: mostly fine
–roundhouse flash kick moves farther horizontally than in ST but not quite as far as it does in HDR, Guile does not continue moving forward after his active hitting frames are over

Dhalsim: just an input change
–super goes back to ST command

Hawk: needs some move fixes and another dive
–gets 7 active spd frames (instead of 1 now, but not as many as Gief’s 10)
–super motion is debugged
–in the air, ppp is ST Hawk dive and kkk is HDR Hawk dive

Cammy: mostly fine
–gets ST jumping strong back (weirdest nerf in HDR for sure)

Fei Long: mostly fine
–chicken wings recover like ST but are otherwise just like their HDR versions

DeeJay: fine
–none

Boxer: just an input change
–return tap/negative edge rush functionality to ST style

Claw: fine
–none

Sagat: fine
–none

Dictator: fine
–none

Akuma: definitely needs some nerfs
–has recovery frames when landing from air fireball
–air fireball’s hitbox is smaller (ie it’s easier to walk under and jump over)
–hitboxes on standing roundhouse and forward are nerfed
–ground fireball hitboxes do not move backward
–dragon punches have Ryu’s startups (ie they can be safe jumped on)
–jab and fierce dragon punches have Ryu-like hitboxes, strong is still invincible
–raging demon can always be jumped out of on reaction but still catches people who are landing
–raging demon is invincible for a few frames and then gets an actual hitbox after startup

30

Maybe limit that to only non fireball charge characters then. Dictator, Claw, Honda, Blanka and Boxer.

I like all of the changes you listed UltraDavid. A lot of the things in your post are what I wanted to say but didn’t how to say. The only things I disagree with are:

-nerfing Super damage (some characters can only do damage in specific situations with a Super eg. Honda, Cammy)

-removing Fei’s ability to evade fireballs with Flying Kick (I don’t know if you actually said this, but he needs some way to get around fireballs and Sirlin was right to give him this change)

-giving Akuma’s Super a hitbox (the only thing he needs is slower startup to get rid of inescapable Demon setups, but it should remain completely invincible, maybe give him more recovery at the end of it so it can be punished)

31

"Force Claw’s Wall Dives to jump only off the wall behind him

It’s so fast and dangerous even only off of one slightly more predictable wall. With this change though, it makes Wall Dive claws and throws almost risky for a change. Honestly his flip kick’s hitbox shouldn’t hit as low as it does, but if there was only one change I could make to Claw, it would be to the Dive. His game is so tight without the need for such BS; Sirlin was wise to attempt to back it down a not."

I disagree. Claw’s power is nerfed greatly, and these so called BS moves are what gives him any sort of fair chance. Plus, he’d be too predictable.

32

Ken - Increase DP landing recovery time. Spamable jab DP is a silly gimmick. I don’t think Ken needs the safety of a short recovery window. It’s a dragon punch, it’s supposed to be high risk/high reward. As it stands too large a percentage of the matches I fond online are scrubs spamming DPs and it saddens me how often they get away with it.

33

My changes to make ST Remix even more balanced:

a) Improve netcode so much that it makes GGPO look like molasses (the real reason behind complaints about spammable attacks/ticks/meaties).
b) Ask Damdai and the other top Akuma players in the world what nerfs/buffs need to be done to R.Akuma to make him tournament-legal then implement said changes.
c) Remove stored ochio.
d) Fix T. Hawk 720 input glitch the same way they fixed Zangief’s 720 input glitch.

That is all.

34

Just remove Akumna kthx.

35

DJ can do it too that’s why he made mgu cancel fb’s so you can go from mgu to MAXOUT instantly making his fb game slightly better.

Dumb posts like these is why I don’t like threads like these lol. Jab dp has 3 frames of recovery but the lag covers it up and makes it damn near instant PLAY OFFLINE you’ll see it’s very punishable. Who said dp’s are supposed to be “high risk high reward” last time I checked all specials had 3 versions…to um…ya know differentiate the risk:reward ratio.

STHD isn’t perfect but it’s much better then classic ST:nunchuck:

36

This is truth. As much as we type these lists and such out, HD Remix is definitely in contention for best fighter ever, at least in my book. Beyond even the rebalancing, the things like ease of control setting and solid netcode make this title really shine.

We’re already in the spirit of improving here, so how about touching up some things besides just the gameplay? Two immediate options that SFIV has that would make HDR that much more excellent:

-The ability to filter online matchmaking by skill level or PING PRIORITY
-Replays!

Either in a patch, or as optional downloadable content, these would kick so much ass.

As far as rebalancing…anything that’s a bug or that could be undone fairly easily should be addressed first. Evo should really help with creative input for several newer fighting games, and patching “between seasons” would also be a good time to keep the collective buzz high over time. I just hope that Capcom feels the same way.

37

^^

I think that’s a great idea and it merits it’s own thread. That way, those ideas don’t get lost in the midst of this thread. You have to admit that rebalancing the characters is going to require a whole lot more discussion than improving on the features for the game.

38

Is it me or does ken’s crazy lk look like it should work like ryu’s ovrhead? At the very least they should reduce its startup alittle.

39

Why in god’s name would ken need a faster overhead ?

40

u misunderstand his standard crazy lk looks like it should work like that but it doesnt ovrhead. On that same note it cant even seem to combo reliably, i believe it should either ovrhead or just b faster than it currently is so it can combo. It feels completely useless. Im not talking about the actual ovrhead version just standard version. Not to b snide but should vega really have an AA on top of those pokes he has?