41

Cammy doesn’t need a safe dp

i would trade up for a few more frames of invincibility though.

42

Is that a joke ?

43

I may be in the minority here…

M. Bison (Dic)

  • Give him recovery on short scissor kicks. Every time a Dic scissor kicks me (no homo), he can combo it further without stopping. It becomes a cheese fest, and Dic already has amazing dizzy potential
  • Bison can also spam the standing short (knee press) infinitely, and the only counter I found was to throw somehow.

Guile

  • slightly longer recovery on Booms

Cammy

  • faster spin knuckle, its slow start means you must predict a fireball to use it properly
  • short front kick safe on block

Zangief

  • slightly lower SPD priority

Chun-Li

  • slightly lower jumping short priority
44

Fei: Revert CW’s back to turbo abilities along with his flame kick while maintainING the juggle potential of remix. Jumping RH cross-up from SSF2 returns along with the ability to cancel a rekka from any normal like SSF2.

45

The fact that this thread even exists says a lot about HD Remix. You shouldn’t have to rebalance the “rebalanced” version of ST. :confused:

EL OH EL EXCLAMATION POINT

46

These type threads need to die.

They always come up and never go anywhere. Somewhere along they way there is going to some lame agruement that is going to last 7 pages between somebody who thinks he knows more than he really does, and another person who actually knows even less but thinks he knows the most.

Good, bad, right, or worng, the game is what it is, it not going to change.

47

On your first point, ask yourself…if Dictator didn’t have that move, how well would he be able to safely do block damage? It’s pretty much the only safe and quick way he has to do that. Since he’s not broken already, I think it’s fine. Since you let him get that close, he gets a block damage mix-up. A reversal special move will stuff any follow-up poke and a reversal throw will counter any throw attempt.

On your second point, I can see where you’re coming from, given that he gets an amazing 9 frames of advantage from making contact…oh wait…you meant FAR standing short! Far standing short, while it is an excellent poke, isn’t any faster than most jabs out there. He gets 5 frames of advantage from it, which is actually a little better than average, but he can’t spam it infinitely. Eventually, you’ll either be out of range or he’ll try to walk up and he’ll be open to a reversal throw or special move.

Guile is…what…mid to high tier right now? He’s perfect as is.

I agree with the first suggestion, but highly disagree with the second one. There’s no reason for it when she has a safe Cannon Drill. Her problem isn’t keeping people off of her. It’s being able to crack turtle shells. That’s part of why she’s in the bottom tier.

Do you mean throw range or that it shouldn’t grab you out of certain things if your feet are on the floor?

If it’s the former, consider Sirlin’s SSF2T Tutorial where he tells you that the range for the SPD is shorter than his crouching roundhouse range. Since it hasn’t changed, the only way you’re getting grabbed by it is if he makes you afraid of the sweep. He’s out-thinking you and he’s being rewarded correctly for it.

If it’s the latter, remember that any move that either puts you in the air or has invincibility frames cannot be thrown. If you see a tick attempt coming, use one of those moves or…if he’s close enough, throw him first with a reversal throw.

And, again, anybody that’s near the bottom should not have anything nerfed. The SPD is fine as is.

Jumping short doesn’t cause a problem unless you don’t properly anti-air it.

48

Apparently, NKI prefers classic ST.

I definitely don’t.

Is there a poll somewhere? I wonder what the ratio of preference is, around here.

49

fresh - a normal reversal throw doesnt beat ticks. as far as i know thats never been the case

50

Heh what, it 100% does. If you’re in range for your throw, you’ll win on a throw after an opponent’s tick every time, even if your opponent is doing a command grab. Reversal throws always beat non-reversal throws.

51

Does the person who has the longest throw range win if they do a tick outside of their opponent’s throw range? Or are normals always shorter in range than everyone’s throw range?

52

In a throw battle between 2 characters with different throw ranges where they’re outside one character’s throw range but still inside the other’s, the character with the longer throw range will always win.

You mean normal attacks? Some normals have shorter range than their character’s throws, some have more.

53

Also, what about after meaty attacks? Doesn’t that give the person an advantage on block in order to tick throw successfully? Just wondering about these things because you said that that reversal throws always beat non-reversal throws and I think there may be exceptions. Sorry if I seem like I’m trying to argue I just wonder about stuff like this and you guys are the real experts so I figured this would be a good time to ask.

54

Classic ST is the 5th rebalanced version of WW. SF2 has been constantly refined ever since the original WW. ST Remix is great as is, but I just wanted to make a wish list of what I thought would help balance the game even further, ESPECIALLY the bottom tier, Akuma and Honda.

I’m definitely not an expert, but IMO reversal throws do not always beat non-reversal throws. If your opponent is able to throw you, then you are also able to throw your opponent. Except of course if you were in recovery frames (eg whiffed Shoryuken, jumping/landing frames, etc), in which case your opponent gets a free throw. And if you were knocked down, you cannot be thrown for several frames after waking up.

For example: if Chun Li does meaty st.Strong on a knocked down Fei Long, the st.Strong will put Fei in hitstun or blockstun (if he didn’t reversal attack or reversal throw). Fei cannot be thrown during hitstun or blockstun, so Chun Li has to wait after doing the st.Strong to throw him. When Fei is out of hit/blockstun he can also throw Chun Li. If both players throw at the same time, the game will randomly give one character the throw, about a 50-50% chance.

So even if Fei did a reversal throw after the st.Strong, he could still lose the throw battle to Chun Li, especially since she has more throw range than him. I don’t know if command throws have priority over normal throws, but if I had to guess, I would say it’s also a 50-50% chance that the throw could go to either character. I believe this is how it works, and anybody can correct me if I’m wrong.

55

shit well, i had no idea bout that. either way thats likely to never happen since ticks like that rarely happen.

56

Which part? His standard crazy lk is slow as fuck. The vega comment is me raging because I asked n the ken thread and got no help for that matchup, I hate vega because I cannot figure out how to fight him properly.

57

The way I’ve always understood it is like this. Basically, on each frame the game:

  1. Reads input
  2. Figures out if characters changed state (Started a move, did a throw, etc)
  3. Figures out who is getting hit, blocking, throwing.

Also, I believe that throws > attacks UNLESS the attack makes you invincible or unthrowable. An unthrowable state occurs when the move makes you leave the ground (ex. Blanka’s up-ball).

So, for example, on wake-up:

Meaty fierce punch vs reversal frame throw: Throw wins.
Meaty SRK vs reversal frame throw: SRK wins.

Since you can’t be thrown for 13 frames after waking up, an opponent that wants to throw you has to use ticks(normal attacks) to keep you busy for that time. The net result is that you can always reversal attack OR reversal throw the first tick.

After you block the tick(s), you both become throwable. At that point:

Throw vs reversal frame throw: Coin toss.
Throw vs reversal attack: Attack wins.
Throw outside your throw range vs reversal throw attempt: The reversal attempt results in a regular attack, so you get thrown.

Don’t take this as gospel. I could be wrong about this. But that’s the way I think it works.

58

The person being ticked has the advantage on counter throwing, assuming they are in range. As soon as the block/hit stun ends, they have the ability to counter throw before the opponent can.

Scenario 1:
Chun does st.mp to a cornered Ken:

Ken can wake up reversal DP and make Chun-li regret the meaty attempt.

Ken can wake up reversal throw. The only time wake up throws don’t work is if the opponent is a) too far away, b) invincible (Initial frames of super, dp) c) in the air.

The st.mp lands:

As soon as the block stun ends, Ken can reversal throw. If he times it right, Chun-li loses 100% of the time.

In counter throwing cases, Turbo users have a tremendous advantage. Assholes.

Ken can screw up the timing. If he does it a little late, it’s possible both him and Chun-li attempted to throw on the same frame, in which case the game randomly decides.

Ken can reversal DP. He is invincible and cannot be thrown and hits Chun-li if she is trying to throw him. She gets a normal move and eats Ken’s dp in the face.

Scenario 2:

T-Hawk attempts a st.mk against a cornered Dictator from the proper range (I’m sure Kuroppi or Jiggly could let you know where that is):

T-Hawk is out of Dictator’s throw range and thus cannot be counter thrown. Dictator can wake up reversal Devil’s Reverse and use the invuln frames to get out (maybe).

The tick lands.

A) Dictator can attempt a reversal Devil’s Reverse to escape. He can get away or the Hawk player guessed right and made him eat a psychic DP.

Or

B) Dictator attempts anything else and eats a Typhoon/Super. He is too far to counter throw and has nothing to escape.

Stolen from the wiki:

and

59

Guys…let’s not overcomplicate this.

Remember…the reversal window is a one frame window that still counts as hit/block stun. That means, the person not in hit/block stun cannot throw the person that is in hit/block stun. Meanwhile, the person that’s in the reversal window…the person in the last frame of their hit/block stun…can throw someone within their throw range or perform a special move.

If you need further explanation, this is covered quite well in Sirlin’s ST tutorial. You’ll even get video to see what I typed playing out before your eyes.

The fact that a person in hit/block stun can throw or special move one frame before their attacker is why tick throws, air-reset throws, and throws on wake-up are actually escapable. If they weren’t…well…then…yeah…they’d be cheap. :slight_smile:

60

right right i get the basics and that i was more interested in the nitty gritty stuff and exceptions…

for example I am convinced that well timed meaties are un(throw) reversible… like there is a certain window … like a small window where if you time your meaty right they can’t do anything other than block or get hit.